Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Question about severe leg, feet, & hand cramping

Expand Messages
  • Gene Poole
    ... Hi Bob... Pranayam could indeed trigger muscle cramps and spasms, if the subject is deficient in certain trace minerals; especially, magnesium.
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      >medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      > We received an email that asked about severe leg, feet, & hand
      > cramping while meditating. In answer to this question:
      >
      > This could be caused by vitamin deficiendies, being in new physical
      > positions (like the lotus posture), or many other things, but the
      > starting of a new meditation technique - in this case, a pranayama -
      > would likely not be the cause.

      Hi Bob...

      'Pranayam' could indeed trigger
      muscle cramps and spasms, if
      the subject is 'deficient' in certain
      trace minerals; especially, magnesium.

      'Rebirthing' practice which involves
      a lot of prolonged, deliberate breathing
      has been shown to trigger not only
      cramps and spasms, but also other
      deeper and more 'serious' reactions.

      One of my past acquaintances had the
      habit of eating oranges for the purpose
      of 'alkalinizing' the body, as was promoted
      by a famous 'health and diet guru'.

      Little did she know, that the relative pH
      of her urine, which showed increase in
      alkalinity due to eating oranges, actually
      was revealing increased DISCHARGE or
      'wasting' of precious 'alkaline phosphatese'
      minerals. The net effect, was to push her
      into a crisis of health, characterized by all
      of the radical symptoms of magnesium
      deficiency.

      I was able to recognize her 'condition'
      and its cause, because I myself had committed
      a similar blunder, years previous.


      > AS I've said many times, your inner
      > chatterer has been your master, and you've been it's slave for years,
      > and when it sees you gaining control over your own mind, it will fight
      > this 'leading to freedom from its slavery' activity by distracting you
      > physically, and/or mentally, and/or emotionally to get you to give up
      > your efforts. I think there is a 100% occurance rate of this happening
      > to meditators at one time or another. If you have a clean bill of
      > physical things 'really' not causing these symptoms from your
      > physician, I think you have to point to your mind as the culprit. And
      > this is a good sign, as it indicates that you are on the right track.

      A 'perfectly healthy' person (as per medical testing)
      can still be susceptible to acute symptoms, given
      situational (IE, voluntary) circumstances.

      Genuine good health, IMO, will minimize
      the (at least apparent) need for any therapeutic
      or remedial practices, including rigorous
      sessions of meditation.

      I suggest that while we may understand
      that 'all disease is psychosomatic', that
      the deeply interwoven 'cause and effect'
      network, extending back in time and
      mainly lost to conscious memory, makes
      the assignment of 'mental causes' of
      physical symptoms, to be a risky proposition.

      > It's like you have now started sawing through the bars to your prison,
      > and they will soon break and never again bar your way to freedom. But
      > during the sawing, the sounds of steel being weakened can make quite a
      > racket. Persevere!
      > Peace and blessings,
      > Bob

      If a person desires freedom, to go
      directly to the ultimate challenge
      to conditioning, is to attempt to
      reason through the 'cause and effect'
      illusion.

      We live immersed in a vast field of
      'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
      our main, chief superstition is the
      assumption of existence of 'cause'.

      In every 'case' I have investigated,
      it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
      of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
      of 'cause', which has been the root of
      suffering.

      Even if we 'decide' that events are
      'uncaused', even if we decide that
      there is no actual 'doer', those are
      merely beliefs, superimposed upon
      an infrastructure of assumption of
      cause-and-effect.

      If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
      to remove the 'original band-aid'.

      The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
      for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
      in reality, a normal life-event, but
      unrecognized as such by the child-
      awareness. The original band-aid
      was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
      beginning of the child's adoption of
      the parental style of _compensation_.

      In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
      water which contains about 2 cups of
      dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
      efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
      and spasms. But running a check on
      any possible wasting of magnesium is
      a good idea.


      ==Gene Poole==
    • Nina
      Hi, Bob, Let s take a step back and look at the difference between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes of this discussion, let s assume that meditation
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi, Bob,

        Let's take a step back and look at the difference
        between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
        of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
        operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
        on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
        of the breath, does entail actively altering the
        patterns of respiration in the body. For this reason,
        I would not compare the cramps one may experience
        while practicing pranayama necessarily with those of
        meditation.

        The first thing that comes to my mind in response to
        this emailer's question is: has your practice of
        pranayama lowered the levels of oxygen available
        to your muscles, either by sitting/lying in a position
        that is constricting your circulation or by breathing
        in patterns that reduce the levels of oxygen in your
        body? This is sometimes difficult to know on your
        own, so it is helpful to seek out an experienced teacher
        of pranayama (not just a meditation or hatha yoga teacher)
        and have him/her evaluate your practice.

        One of the most common things I have seen in pranayama
        practice is the tendency to push too early and long into
        an altered pattern such that one's body tenses around the
        breath, or one becomes breathless, spacey, or emotionally
        volatile. It would be unwise, when dealing with pranayama,
        to point to these 'symptoms' as 'noise from my inner
        chatterer' and press forward. These are signs of disruption,
        and the causes are often directly related to how one is
        practicing.

        When you experience disruption in your pranayama practice,
        it may help to back off on the frequency and duration of
        altered breath cycles. For instance, practice the altered
        pattern for 1 or 2 cycles and then return to several cycles
        of normal breathing or until you feel entirely relaxed again.
        At any time, if you feel tension anywhere in your body,
        thoughts or emotions, go back to normal breathing.

        The other issue may indeed be the position used for practicing
        pranayama. For many western folks, sitting in Padmasana for
        pranayama simply isn't productive. Most of us simply don't
        have the degree of hip flexibility necessary for most positions
        that require us to sit on the ground, including Padmasana and
        Sukhasana. The exception might be sitting on a block in Virasana,
        but again, if you wish to reduce your cramping, make sure you
        circulation is in no way impaired. The block must be high enough
        to provide ease to your knees and level support to your pelvis
        so that your central channel and spine can lift into alignment.
        Or you might try reclining pranayama or pranayama while sitting
        in a chair.

        In any case, if your muscle cramps do not resolve with simple
        fixes such as those articulated above, it is advisable to seek
        out an experienced teacher of pranayama to evaluate your practice.
        (Note: a teacher of meditation and/or hatha yoga will not
        necessarily understand the workings of pranayama.)

        Have you read Richard Rosen's book 'The Yoga of Breath'?
        It and David Coulter's section on breathing in 'Anatomy of
        Hatha Yoga: A Manual for Students, Teachers and Practicioners'
        are excellent companions to a pranayama practice. Rosen's
        book gives a practice outline and offers numerous options
        as regards sitting/lying positions for the practice. Coulter's
        book is highly informative as regards the physiological
        workings of pranayama.

        Good luck...
        Nina
      • Nina
        ... After reading what Gene had to say about magnesium, I did a search on oxygen, magnesium and respiration/pranayama. Really, there is a connection between
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
          > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
          > water which contains about 2 cups of
          > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
          > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
          > and spasms. But running a check on
          > any possible wasting of magnesium is
          > a good idea.
          >
          >
          > ==Gene Poole==

          After reading what Gene had to say about
          magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
          magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
          Really, there is a connection between
          levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
          of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
          homeostasis and breathing... which is,
          unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
          Anyway, one thing I read was that one
          way to oxygenate the system is to soak
          in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
          added. Interesting... though I still have
          no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
          toss it into the conversation.

          Nina
        • Andy
          ... wrote: Bob ~ you wrote: If you have a clean bill of physical things really not causing these symptoms from your physician, I think you
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            Bob ~
            you wrote:

            "If you have a clean bill of physical things 'really' not causing
            these symptoms from your physician, I think you have to point to your
            mind as the culprit. And this is a good sign, as it indicates that
            you are on the right track. It's like you have now started sawing
            through the bars to your prison, and they will soon break and never
            again bar your way to freedom. But during the sawing, the sounds of
            steel being weakened can make quite a racket. Persevere!"


            Underneath (or between) the words above, is the unstated assumption
            that meditation is an appropriate activity for anyone who feels
            compelled to try it. Another possible interpretation of the body's
            pain signals is that the person is not, at that time, ready for what
            may be seen during meditation. Sure, it could be the mind's way of
            derailing what it perceives as an "assault." And certainly, there
            are instances when one may find one's self persevering despite the
            pain. But I would approach this cautiously because maybe Pandora's
            Box is opening too quickly for the person, and the physical pain
            signals are a protection and not a distraction.

            The human mind/psyche is quite complex and there are a variety of
            people for whom meditation is contraindicated (dissociative
            personality disorder, e.g.). Just like a nutrient-packed food such
            as broccoli isn't for everyone (George Bush Sr.), I have a sense that
            meditation isn't for everyone. Some people just don't want to look
            inside in that manner, but they feel compelled to do so. And some
            are stubborn enough to keep at it even though they find it boring or
            useless. So, perhaps the mind/brain enlists the body to dissuade the
            organism via pain. Ironically, a strong sense of self, ego, needs to
            be present to see that the self/ego is illusory (at least in one
            sense). I think it was Jack Engler, in "Transformations
            of Consciousness" who wrote, "You have to first have a self before
            you can lose your self." :-) He goes on to elaborate on this,
            pointing out that a stable sense of self is required to handle some
            of what comes up (and is disassembled) during deep, persistent
            meditation. If the psychological infrastructure is weak, the
            evaporating of the illusion may prove too threatening.

            You can probably tell what's coming: imo, pain plays no role in
            meditation. If there is pain, it is a cry from some part of the
            mind, asking that it be attended to (even if the pain isn't of
            physical origin, although apparently both psychological and physical
            pain originate in the same regions of the brain). Physical pain is a
            message of some sort, and not always a distraction because the person
            is getting "too close" to seeing something. I think Deep Seeing can
            occur without the accompaniment of pain. The meditator just needs to
            be respectful of Its schedule. It "opens" at Its own rate (if it
            opens at all, of course).

            gassho
          • Gene Poole
            ... Think of it this way; Magnesium ions form the electrical environment which enables proper muscle tonus; (although, calcium ions are equally important) and
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
              > > In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
              > > water which contains about 2 cups of
              > > dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
              > > efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
              > > and spasms. But running a check on
              > > any possible wasting of magnesium is
              > > a good idea.
              > >
              > >
              > > ==Gene Poole==
              >
              > After reading what Gene had to say about
              > magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
              > magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
              > Really, there is a connection between
              > levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
              > of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
              > homeostasis and breathing... which is,
              > unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)

              Think of it this way;

              Magnesium ions form the
              electrical environment which
              enables proper muscle tonus;
              (although, calcium ions are
              equally important) and if in
              short supply for any reason,
              symptoms will occur.


              > Anyway, one thing I read was that one
              > way to oxygenate the system is to soak
              > in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
              > added. Interesting... though I still have
              > no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
              > toss it into the conversation.
              >
              > Nina

              BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon

              Using hydrogen peroxide
              internally or externally does
              NOT 'oxygenate the system'.

              Unfortunately, the proponents
              of hydrogen peroxide use, who
              are involved in MLM promotions
              of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
              beverages', etc, have been stating
              their hype for so long, that it has
              become an oft-repeated myth.

              I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
              water, to alleviate minor muscle
              cramps. Please do not repeat
              stories which glorify hydrogen
              peroxide as other than an effective
              germicide and/or rocket fuel
              catalyst.


              ==Gene Poole==
            • Bruce Morgen
              ... Gene Poole wrote: In any event, soaking in a tub of warm water which contains about 2 cups of dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Gene Poole wrote:
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, 
                "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                    
                In any event, soaking in a tub of warm
                water which contains about 2 cups of
                dissolved Epsom salts, may prove an
                efficacious remedy for diverse cramps
                and spasms. But running a check on
                any possible wasting of magnesium is
                a good idea.
                
                
                ==Gene Poole==
                      
                After reading what Gene had to say about
                magnesium, I did a search on oxygen,
                magnesium and respiration/pranayama.
                Really, there is a connection between
                levels of magnesium, alkalinity/acidity
                of the body, oxygen/carbon dioxide
                homeostasis and breathing... which is,
                unfortunately, still beyond me to explain. :)
                    
                Think of it this way;
                
                Magnesium ions form the
                electrical environment which
                enables proper muscle tonus;
                (although, calcium ions are
                equally important) and if in
                short supply for any reason,
                symptoms will occur.
                
                
                  
                Anyway, one thing I read was that one
                way to oxygenate the system is to soak
                in a tub of water with hydrogen peroxide
                added. Interesting... though I still have
                no idea how or if that works, I thought I'd
                toss it into the conversation.
                
                Nina
                    
                BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
                
                Using hydrogen peroxide
                internally or externally does
                NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
                
                Unfortunately, the proponents
                of hydrogen peroxide use, who
                are involved in MLM promotions
                of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
                beverages', etc, have been stating
                their hype for so long, that it has
                become an oft-repeated myth.
                
                I repeat; bathe  in  Epsom salts
                water, to alleviate minor muscle
                cramps. Please do not repeat
                stories which glorify hydrogen
                peroxide as other than an effective
                germicide and/or rocket fuel 
                catalyst. 
                
                
                  
                As long as we're striving
                for factual accuracy here,
                hydrogen peroxide doesn't
                act as a "catalyst" but
                rather as an easier-to-
                handle (but less efficent)
                alternative to liquid
                oxygen in liquid-fueled
                rocket systems.
              • medit8ionsociety
                ... Dear Nina, I had told the email originator before posting the query about cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific technique, but
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                  <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi, Bob,
                  >
                  > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
                  > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
                  > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
                  > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
                  > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
                  > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
                  > patterns of respiration in the body.

                  Dear Nina,

                  I had told the email originator before posting the query about
                  cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
                  technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
                  and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
                  breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
                  respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your commentary,
                  the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out an
                  experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible that a
                  meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama, and
                  I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
                  meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.

                  Peace and blessings,
                  Bob

                  > For this reason,
                  > I would not compare the cramps one may experience
                  > while practicing pranayama necessarily with those of
                  > meditation.
                  >
                  > The first thing that comes to my mind in response to
                  > this emailer's question is: has your practice of
                  > pranayama lowered the levels of oxygen available
                  > to your muscles, either by sitting/lying in a position
                  > that is constricting your circulation or by breathing
                  > in patterns that reduce the levels of oxygen in your
                  > body? This is sometimes difficult to know on your
                  > own, so it is helpful to seek out an experienced teacher
                  > of pranayama (not just a meditation or hatha yoga teacher)
                  > and have him/her evaluate your practice.
                  >
                  > One of the most common things I have seen in pranayama
                  > practice is the tendency to push too early and long into
                  > an altered pattern such that one's body tenses around the
                  > breath, or one becomes breathless, spacey, or emotionally
                  > volatile. It would be unwise, when dealing with pranayama,
                  > to point to these 'symptoms' as 'noise from my inner
                  > chatterer' and press forward. These are signs of disruption,
                  > and the causes are often directly related to how one is
                  > practicing.
                  >
                  > When you experience disruption in your pranayama practice,
                  > it may help to back off on the frequency and duration of
                  > altered breath cycles. For instance, practice the altered
                  > pattern for 1 or 2 cycles and then return to several cycles
                  > of normal breathing or until you feel entirely relaxed again.
                  > At any time, if you feel tension anywhere in your body,
                  > thoughts or emotions, go back to normal breathing.
                  >
                  > The other issue may indeed be the position used for practicing
                  > pranayama. For many western folks, sitting in Padmasana for
                  > pranayama simply isn't productive. Most of us simply don't
                  > have the degree of hip flexibility necessary for most positions
                  > that require us to sit on the ground, including Padmasana and
                  > Sukhasana. The exception might be sitting on a block in Virasana,
                  > but again, if you wish to reduce your cramping, make sure you
                  > circulation is in no way impaired. The block must be high enough
                  > to provide ease to your knees and level support to your pelvis
                  > so that your central channel and spine can lift into alignment.
                  > Or you might try reclining pranayama or pranayama while sitting
                  > in a chair.
                  >
                  > In any case, if your muscle cramps do not resolve with simple
                  > fixes such as those articulated above, it is advisable to seek
                  > out an experienced teacher of pranayama to evaluate your practice.
                  > (Note: a teacher of meditation and/or hatha yoga will not
                  > necessarily understand the workings of pranayama.)
                  >
                  > Have you read Richard Rosen's book 'The Yoga of Breath'?
                  > It and David Coulter's section on breathing in 'Anatomy of
                  > Hatha Yoga: A Manual for Students, Teachers and Practicioners'
                  > are excellent companions to a pranayama practice. Rosen's
                  > book gives a practice outline and offers numerous options
                  > as regards sitting/lying positions for the practice. Coulter's
                  > book is highly informative as regards the physiological
                  > workings of pranayama.
                  >
                  > Good luck...
                  > Nina
                • Nina
                  Gene wrote: BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP!
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Gene wrote:

                    BRRRRRZZZZRRRRPP! <--- myth alert klaxon
                    Using hydrogen peroxide
                    internally or externally does
                    NOT 'oxygenate the system'.
                    Unfortunately, the proponents
                    of hydrogen peroxide use, who
                    are involved in MLM promotions
                    of expensive 'stabilized oxygen
                    beverages', etc, have been stating
                    their hype for so long, that it has
                    become an oft-repeated myth.
                    I repeat; bathe in Epsom salts
                    water, to alleviate minor muscle
                    cramps. Please do not repeat
                    stories which glorify hydrogen
                    peroxide as other than an effective
                    germicide and/or rocket fuel catalyst.

                    Bruce wrote:

                    As long as we're striving
                    for factual accuracy here,
                    hydrogen peroxide doesn't
                    act as a "catalyst" but
                    rather as an easier-to-
                    handle (but less efficent)
                    alternative to liquid
                    oxygen in liquid-fueled
                    rocket systems.

                    Nina wrote:

                    What - are you guys rocket scientists
                    or something?
                  • medit8ionsociety
                    ... big snip ... snip ... Yo Geneji, So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"

                      big snip
                      >
                      > If a person desires freedom, to go
                      > directly to the ultimate challenge
                      > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                      > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                      > illusion.
                      >
                      > We live immersed in a vast field of
                      > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                      > our main, chief superstition is the
                      > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                      >
                      > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                      > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                      > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                      > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                      > suffering.
                      >
                      > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                      > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                      > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                      > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                      > an infrastructure of assumption of
                      > cause-and-effect.
                      >
                      > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                      > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                      >
                      > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                      > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                      > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                      > unrecognized as such by the child-
                      > awareness. The original band-aid
                      > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                      > beginning of the child's adoption of
                      > the parental style of _compensation_.
                      >
                      snip
                      >
                      > ==Gene Poole==

                      Yo Geneji,
                      So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                      between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                      all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one! You're pointing
                      to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                      root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                      applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                      avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                      the parental style of _compensation_."
                      Peace and blessings,
                      Bob
                    • Nina
                      ... commentary, ... an ... that a ... and ... Bob, My point was that just because someone teaches meditation and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                        > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                        > > Hi, Bob,
                        > >
                        > > Let's take a step back and look at the difference
                        > > between meditation and pranayama. For the purposes
                        > > of this discussion, let's assume that meditation
                        > > operates on the level of 'observing'. Pranayama,
                        > > on the other hand, while it may begin with observation
                        > > of the breath, does entail actively altering the
                        > > patterns of respiration in the body.
                        >
                        > Dear Nina,
                        >
                        > I had told the email originator before posting the query about
                        > cramping/etc that I would not disclose their name or the specific
                        > technique, but it is one of the most widely used of all meditations,
                        > and the pranayama that was being done involves only observing the
                        > breath, and does not "entail actively altering the patterns of
                        > respiration in the body." As for some of the rest of your
                        commentary,
                        > the classic teaching is in agreement with your advise to "seek out
                        an
                        > experienced teacher of pranayama", but it is of course possible
                        that a
                        > meditation or hatha yoga teacher is knowledgable about pranayama,
                        and
                        > I think you will find them to be few and far between, outside of the
                        > meditation/hatha teachers available to most people.
                        >
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob

                        Bob,

                        My point was that just because someone teaches meditation
                        and/or hatha yoga does not mean that a person has a regular,
                        dedicated pranayama practice and the experience that would
                        enable them to make a credible evaluation of someone's
                        practice - particularly if what may be causing a disruption
                        is a matter of fine tuning and not as easy as "relax and
                        breathe" or as dismissive as "it's all in your head."

                        Have a nice evening.

                        Nina
                      • Gene Poole
                        ... Uh-Oh! ... Ha ha... very funny, Bob... Do you have any choice, but to react to your feelings, in the way that you were exampled? And more deeply... do you
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                          >
                          > big snip
                          > >
                          > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                          > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                          > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                          > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                          > > illusion.
                          > >
                          > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                          > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                          > > our main, chief superstition is the
                          > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                          > >
                          > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                          > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                          > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                          > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                          > > suffering.
                          > >
                          > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                          > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                          > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                          > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                          > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                          > > cause-and-effect.
                          > >
                          > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                          > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                          > >
                          > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                          > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                          > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                          > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                          > > awareness. The original band-aid
                          > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                          > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                          > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                          > >
                          > snip
                          > >
                          > > ==Gene Poole==
                          >
                          > Yo Geneji,
                          > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                          > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                          > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!

                          Uh-Oh!


                          > You're pointing
                          > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                          > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                          > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                          > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                          > the parental style of _compensation_."
                          > Peace and blessings,
                          > Bob

                          Ha ha... very funny, Bob...

                          Do you have any choice, but to react
                          to your feelings, in the way that you
                          were exampled?

                          And more deeply... do you have any
                          choice, but to have those feelings,
                          based as they are, on the very values
                          which formed the core of the parental
                          personality?

                          And did your parents have any choice,
                          about how they would feel, when... and
                          how they would compensate for those
                          feelings?

                          Just whose (ancient) program is running
                          this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                          all the way back?

                          The consistent factors in all of this, are
                          involving our dire need to be successful
                          socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                          not excluded.

                          We have taken up an ancient burden we
                          do not understand, and carry it as our
                          badge of social belonging.

                          The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                          social units; those can make or break an
                          individual.

                          If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                          and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                          to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                          eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.

                          We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                          and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                          adapt.

                          Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                          they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                          to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                          given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                          arrangement we choose.

                          Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                          return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                          early days of family life.


                          ==Gene Poole==
                        • medit8ionsociety
                          ... Yo Geneji, Great stuff, and right on. I see real life examples of what you point to daily as I work with behavior-problem young girls, and see the way
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                            <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                            > >, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > > "Gene Poole" blathered:
                            > >
                            > > big snip
                            > > >
                            > > > If a person desires freedom, to go
                            > > > directly to the ultimate challenge
                            > > > to conditioning, is to attempt to
                            > > > reason through the 'cause and effect'
                            > > > illusion.
                            > > >
                            > > > We live immersed in a vast field of
                            > > > 'effects' (what we call 'events'), and
                            > > > our main, chief superstition is the
                            > > > assumption of existence of 'cause'.
                            > > >
                            > > > In every 'case' I have investigated,
                            > > > it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening
                            > > > of blame, the creation of self-as-victim
                            > > > of 'cause', which has been the root of
                            > > > suffering.
                            > > >
                            > > > Even if we 'decide' that events are
                            > > > 'uncaused', even if we decide that
                            > > > there is no actual 'doer', those are
                            > > > merely beliefs, superimposed upon
                            > > > an infrastructure of assumption of
                            > > > cause-and-effect.
                            > > >
                            > > > If we have a 'therapeutic goal', it is
                            > > > to remove the 'original band-aid'.
                            > > >
                            > > > The 'original band-aid' was a remedy
                            > > > for a misdiagnosed 'trauma', which was
                            > > > in reality, a normal life-event, but
                            > > > unrecognized as such by the child-
                            > > > awareness. The original band-aid
                            > > > was 'gifted' by the parent, and is the
                            > > > beginning of the child's adoption of
                            > > > the parental style of _compensation_.
                            > > >
                            > > snip
                            > > >
                            > > > ==Gene Poole==
                            > >
                            > > Yo Geneji,
                            > > So you think you could slip in this brilliant sharing of wisdom
                            > > between advise about magnesium and epsom salt baths and think that's
                            > > all that's gonna be said about it? Wrong oh vast one!
                            >
                            > Uh-Oh!
                            >
                            >
                            > > You're pointing
                            > > to the "the creation of self-as-victim of 'cause', which has been the
                            > > root of suffering." Well, isn't this somewhat acting like a parent
                            > > applying "the original band-aid"?:-) Please expound on this, so as to
                            > > avoid our being fastened to some degree of blame for our "adoption of
                            > > the parental style of _compensation_."
                            > > Peace and blessings,
                            > > Bob
                            >
                            > Ha ha... very funny, Bob...
                            >
                            > Do you have any choice, but to react
                            > to your feelings, in the way that you
                            > were exampled?
                            >
                            > And more deeply... do you have any
                            > choice, but to have those feelings,
                            > based as they are, on the very values
                            > which formed the core of the parental
                            > personality?
                            >
                            > And did your parents have any choice,
                            > about how they would feel, when... and
                            > how they would compensate for those
                            > feelings?
                            >
                            > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                            > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                            > all the way back?
                            >
                            > The consistent factors in all of this, are
                            > involving our dire need to be successful
                            > socially; how to 'act' so as to be included,
                            > not excluded.
                            >
                            > We have taken up an ancient burden we
                            > do not understand, and carry it as our
                            > badge of social belonging.
                            >
                            > The 'family' and 'tribe' are the strongest
                            > social units; those can make or break an
                            > individual.
                            >
                            > If a family or tribe is collectively 'sick',
                            > and a child fails to successfully 'adapt'
                            > to the sickness, the sick tribe/family will
                            > eject that child, and define his as 'sick'.
                            >
                            > We see a lot of tribal sickness these days;
                            > and we can only cheer the child, who cannot
                            > adapt.
                            >
                            > Bob, the 'mind' is like a vase of roses; how
                            > they are arranged, varies from family to tribe
                            > to culture. What we need to keep in mind, is that
                            > given the vase and the roses, we can adopt any
                            > arrangement we choose.
                            >
                            > Problem is, that if a strong wind occurs, the roses
                            > return to their 'default' config, which was set in the
                            > early days of family life.
                            >
                            >
                            > ==Gene Poole==

                            Yo Geneji,
                            Great stuff, and right on. I see "real life" examples of what you
                            point to daily as I work with "behavior-problem" young girls, and see
                            the way sickness and anti-social traits/behaviors are mimiced through
                            generations. Grandma was an asthmatic, and so is Mama, so the child
                            believes and insists she is, even though there are no signs or
                            symptoms whatsoever. And G-mom hit her kid, and Mama hit our client,
                            and she answers situations by hitting first and often. A nice thing I
                            do see is that sometimes the arrangement of flowers can be changed and
                            the innate beauty can appear. But we have a society that insists all
                            too often that after the flowers have begun to thrive, on returning
                            the children to the same family and conditions that emphasized the
                            thorns on the stems and not the wonderful aromas and beauty that have
                            been achieved. And yes, "it is attachment to 'cause', the fastening of
                            blame, the creation of self-as-victim as 'cause', ... (that) has been
                            the root of suffering". And in the majority of cases, soon after
                            returning to the original biological and environmental influences, the
                            flowers wither and rot. And for our girls, too often, a life of shame,
                            degradation and abuse continues.
                            Peace and blessings,
                            Bob
                          • Nina
                            ... The mind boggles at the conversations to be had, in which one repeatedly replaces My Family Way for I . How could one possibly remain attached to one s
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:

                              > Do you have any choice, but to react
                              > to your feelings, in the way that you
                              > were exampled?
                              >
                              > And more deeply... do you have any
                              > choice, but to have those feelings,
                              > based as they are, on the very values
                              > which formed the core of the parental
                              > personality?
                              >
                              > And did your parents have any choice,
                              > about how they would feel, when... and
                              > how they would compensate for those
                              > feelings?
                              >
                              > Just whose (ancient) program is running
                              > this show, anyhow? Is the family way,
                              > all the way back?

                              The mind boggles at the conversations to be had,
                              in which one repeatedly replaces "My Family Way"
                              for "I". How could one possibly remain attached
                              to one's identity when it is referenced in such a way?
                              Beyond knowing that it exists and recognizing its
                              operation, is there any hope of moving beyond
                              "My Family Way"? It is doubtful, in the way that
                              it is 'impossible' to move beyond the ever fragmenting
                              bounds of a fractal. Who is to say that moving
                              beyond "My Family Way" is not simply... part of
                              "My Family Way"?

                              Nina
                            • tom_flou
                              Hi here is a physoilogical view. If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 27, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi here is a physoilogical view.

                                If Pranayam is practiced as paying attention to the breathing
                                without changing its natural rhythm in any way, this part can hardly
                                have any adverse physiological effects.
                                But if the breathing is forced or reduced and so the natural self-
                                regulation of this very complicated and delicate process is
                                tampered with, the consequences can be rather knowledgeable.
                                The resting breath rate is about 15/min. securing a oxygen density
                                in the tissues at close to 100%
                                If breath rate is increased (Hyperventilation) it does not affect
                                the oxygen tension much, but it does markedly decrease the CO2
                                tension.
                                This causes an increase in free hydrogen ions and thus a lowering of
                                the pH of the blood and subsequently the body fluids. (Respiratory
                                acidosis) This has rather immediate and noticeable effects on the
                                body involved. Some symptoms are dizziness, confusion. (Even out of
                                body experiences and hallucinations)
                                As a result of the lowering pH of the blood, even a lowering of
                                calcium occurs, resulting in numbness and tingling in hands, arms
                                and in the face, spasms or cramps of hands and feet.
                                It has bees suggested here to breathe deeply at a rate of 60/min.
                                This will in a short time result in such a respiratory acidosis of
                                the body. Possibly with any number of the above mentioned symptoms
                                emerging. It is not a serious medical condition, as the person
                                affected if he does not stop, will finally pass out, thereby
                                automatically returning his breathing to normal and correcting the
                                offset blood chemistry.
                                Hyperventilation is an integral part of most panic disorders,
                                all of these symptoms giving the sufferer "proof" that something is
                                seriously wrong in the body.
                                The condition is treated with reassurance and if needed, placing a
                                plastic bag over the mouth and nose so the CO2 can reenter the body.

                                Magnesium deficiency is of rare clinical relevance.

                                Dietary or external applications has at best a very limited effect.

                                Cheers

                                Tom
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.