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Re: About Drugs and Delusional Advise/To Anna

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  • Andy
    ... hi anna. my name is andy. i basically lurk here, from time to time. just happened to stop by today and noticed this thread. Drugs! did someone say
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 20, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
      > <tom@f...> wrote:
      > > > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
      > > > From: Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
      > > > Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation

      hi anna. my name is andy. i basically lurk here, from time to
      time. just happened to stop by today and noticed this thread.
      Drugs! did someone say drugs! Yeahhhhh! :-)))))

      apparently there is some discussion as to whether you should be
      weaning yourself off Clonazepam or stopping cold turkey.

      i must agree with bob. do NOT stop cold turkey. Slowly come off the
      stuff. if you still have any doubts, consult a pharmacist.

      i was on a different benzodiazepine drug, Ativan (Lorazepam), 1 mg -
      a mild dose - for only two weeks (two doses per day). i was not
      taking it for anxiety, however. i was using it post chemotherapy
      because it was the only drug that quelled my nausea. apparently the
      drug works on the receptor cells in the stomach, moderating any upset.

      unaware, i stopped taking it cold turkey and experienced both strange
      emotional shifts (they were mild but noticeable) and, much more
      apparent: i had graphic and upsetting nightmares the first night i
      stopped taking my evening dose! just one night day and night of this
      silliness and i called a psychologist who explained that it is really
      NECESSARY to withdraw slowly from ALL of the benzodiazephines (for
      the reasons bob mentioned in his post).

      for the next three days i reduced by daily dose by 1/3, and then i
      took another three days to cut down another 1/3. so, when i finally
      stopped, after six days, i was only taking 1/3 mg twice daily.
      stopping in this manner i noticed no usual emotional effects nor did
      i experience any problems with my sleep.

      i hope the above helps.

      p.s. if you feel drawn to meditation, if it is something that appeals
      to your "nature," you may discover that by watching the thoughts come
      and go, come and go, a realization arises that you, the watcher, are
      not the thoughts: you are simply the recepient of them. Helpless you
      are to select particular thoughts, and impotent you will be to stop
      the thoughts, but safe, nonetheless from them. you may experience,
      at some point, a sense of invulnerability from ALL thought and
      possibly an entire cessation of the anxiety. good luck!
    • Jason Fishman
      Hi Bob, As with dependencies in general, there is a continual cause and effect idealism about these dependencies. Not that this post will help Anna or any
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 21, 2004
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        Hi Bob,
         
        As with dependencies in general, there is a continual cause and effect idealism about these dependencies. Not that this post will help Anna or any other person that has a habitual drug use need. It's just that the need is paramount to the issue it's trying to address. No one can address those issue like Anna or any other dependent person can, thats the crux of what I see Tom saying here. Not that Anna should dump the drug because he believes something about it, but that Anna should take a gander into the dependence she places on the drug and find out what value weening off the drug might provide for her.
         
        Simply put, the anxiety seemed to spur the need for the drug, now they are interdependent, which the way out of interdependency is to tackle the problem or perceptual problems that provide us the use of the drug. When broken down, there is very little truth to drug using beyond the desire to not suffer, or to stay alive, or to enjoy our aliveness, as well as a plethera of other assorted goodies we like to use to make things better, funner or more useful. This boils down to mearly tackling the perceptual-ness of the need, do I want to live a life without anxiety? if yes, then I do so by tackling it with or without the use of a dependency like a drug. Should I think that anxiety won't pop up again, probably not, but when it does will I be better equipt to manage it? And as I do so, become better able to manage it, as that progresses, is anxiety really an issue for me anymore?
         
        So Anna, no one here is an authority as to how weening you from the drug might affect you. As Bob said most doc's might be afraid to remove patients from drug dependencies since it affects people in all sorts of ways, or a doc might hook a patient into another drug. Best for you to make those desicions, since the power is in your hands, which might jsut cause a whole 'nother set of anxieties. The key here is what your willing to do, as those here can only offer up from thier experiences, you must pull from yours.
         
        Best of luck!
         
        Peace and Love

        medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
        <tom@f...> wrote:
        > >  Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
        > >  From: Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
        > >  Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation
        >
        > > Tom,
        > > Thank you for great information.
        > > This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is
        possibley irreversible.
        >
        > This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your
        mentation.
        > The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need to investigate
        > its plausibility.
        > Promoting it into a belief is a problem, then you are hooked on it,
        > - until you don't believe it anymore.
        > (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the thoughts
        he think
        > you need to support your current belief-system ;-)
        > I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.

        Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other
        living people, horses that talk, and other similar things, but it is a
        FACT that there is a brutal physical, emotional, and mental result if
        you are not weaned off of a benzodiazepine medication medically
        appropriately. You will have "REAL" problems that may take weeks or
        even months to come on, but when they do, and they will, whether you
        "believe" it or not, ... you'll then understand why many doctors Anna
        has seen refuse to even get involved with the process. But, there are
        physicians who can help getting off of these meds. It's a matter of
        finding them.

        > I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for epilepsy.
        > If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an epileptic
        seizure,
        > but he does not miss the drug in any other way - rather, he feels
        less tired without it.
        > But when you discontinue the drug, your underlying anxiety emerges
        again.
        > This can be mistaken for withdrawal symptoms.

        No - you WILL experience withdrawal symptoms. And they are heavy-duty
        and can be life threatening.

        > In fact this is what you choose to believe,
        > according to your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)

        No, all of medical knowledge will point to this as reality - not a
        "belief system". Thinking they are just a choice that can be ignored
        is a potentially dangerous "self-proclaimed belief-system".

        > >I am working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought",

        > All this hard work does nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
        > It cannot be 'done'.

        Well, there are dozens of studies that demonstrate that "being
        surpremely happy in thought" is very much more beneficial to healing,
        organ-system function, mood, and so on, than is just letting your
        thoughts run wild and/or stay in negativity.

        > The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts :-)
        > Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
        > Write them down as they appear.
        > Then, ask yourself, one by one, if you can be really certain, they
        are true.
        > If not, discard them. (Once you realize they are lies, you don�t
        want them anyway)
        > It takes some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they
        emerge again.
        > This part is beyond your control.

        > >and to just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in
        our minds, to go away.
        > >It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the time, even
        unaware,
        > >and even when we do not consciosly asks.
        >
        > Yes! In reality there are no problems.

        That's quite a judgement call, and I think that this statement itself
        is leaning towards magical thinking, and being in denial, and a whole
        bunch of other "problems".

        > Problems are caused by the mind,

        and the body, and other people, and stress, and other things that on
        our dualistic reality extistence level are "real".

        > suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose to
        believe in.

        Like much of what you have shared here. I'm sure you have good
        intentions, but medically I think you mistaken, and it would be a
        disaster to follow the path you are pointing to.

        > >Peace and Agape,
        > >Anna
        >
        > You too!
        > Tom

        Peace and blessings,
        Bob


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      • tom flou
        Well, Bob. We seem to be drawing in different directions of the rope with poor Anna stuck in the middle. Sorry, Anna! I think Bob is right. He has
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 21, 2004
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          Well, Bob. We seem to be drawing in different directions of the rope

          with poor Anna stuck in the middle.    Sorry, Anna!

          I think Bob is right. He has contrasted my optimistic view of the matter with the opposite.

          Bob has, in my opinion described a worst scenario picture.

          I agree with Bob that it is important that the drug be terminated slowly

          and maybe even with professional help, as I wrote in my first mail to Anna.

          This, second mail underneath, was adressing another aspect of the process,

          intending to moderate Anna´s concern,

          that "15 years of this toxin is possibly irreversible"

          With convictions like this, the endeavor to get rid of the drug has a poor start.

          The possibility to get off it is definitely there.

          And, as Bob says, it may be painful for weeks or even month.

          But this has realistically to be seen in relation to maybe another 15 years on the drug.

           

          Concerning "being supremely happy in thought"

          It is certainly beneficial.  I totally agree.

          But how to get there?

          You can try to force yourself to think only positive thoughts.

          But you will never succeed, only be more miserable.

          The happy thoughts come by themselves, once you make room for them,

          by not identifying with all the negative rubbish that is causing your misery

          by constantly occupying your attention.

          Of cause, once you get there, you are to be congratulated.

           

          For the last part I need to define my words:

          When I say problems,  I am talking about the way the mind 

          interprets the circumstances of our lives.

          With this definition there are no problems in the physical world.

          There can be - even severe - life situations to deal with.

          But these are not problems, they are challenges.

          So Anna is facing the challenge of getting off her drugs.

          This can be difficult, I agree.

          It can be exactly as difficult as Bob describes it - in a few cases.

          It can even prove impossible.

          But if you can reduce the problems to a minimum.

          That is, reduce/remove your negative expectations and uninvestigated false ideas.

          Then only the naked challenge is left.

          And that may prove surprisingly smaller than it initially looked,

          with all the mind created problems entangling it.

          In many cases it may not even be there ;-) 

           

          Peace and blessings to you too, Bob. 

           

          And to you, Anna!

           

          Tom

           

           

           

            Message: 3
             Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:29:22 -0000
             From: medit8ionsociety
          Subject: Re: About Drugs and Delusional Advise/T and A

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
          <tom@f...> wrote:

          > >  Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
          > >  From:
          Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
          > > 
          Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation
          >
          > > Tom,
          > >
          Thank you for great information.
          > > This is what concerns me, I
          believe 15 years of this toxin is
          possibley irreversible.
          >
          >
          This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your
          mentation.
          > The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need
          to investigate
          > its plausibility.
          > Promoting it into a belief is a
          problem, then you are hooked on it,
          > - until you don't believe it
          anymore.
          > (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the
          thoughts
          he think
          > you need to support your current belief-system
          ;-)
          > I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.

          Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other
          living people, horses that talk, and other similar things, but it is a
          FACT that there is a brutal physical, emotional, and mental result if
          you are not weaned off of a benzodiazepine medication medically
          appropriately. You will have "REAL" problems that may take weeks or
          even months to come on, but when they do, and they will, whether you
          "believe" it or not, ... you'll then understand why many doctors Anna
          has seen refuse to even get involved with the process. But, there are
          physicians who can help getting off of these meds. It's a matter of
          finding them.

           
           
           
           

          > I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for
          epilepsy.
          > If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an
          epileptic
          seizure,
          > but he does not miss the drug in any other way -
          rather, he feels
          less tired without it.
          > But when you discontinue the
          drug, your underlying anxiety emerges
          again.
          > This can be mistaken
          for withdrawal symptoms.

          No - you WILL experience withdrawal symptoms. And they are heavy-duty
          and can be life threatening.
           
           

          > In fact this is what you choose to believe,
          > according to
          your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)

          No, all of medical knowledge will point to this as reality - not a
          "belief system". Thinking they are just a choice that can be ignored
          is a potentially dangerous "self-proclaimed belief-system".

          > >I am working very hard at "being
          surpremely happy in thought",

          > All this hard work does
          nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
          > It cannot be
          'done'.

          Well, there are dozens of studies that demonstrate that  "being
          surpremely happy in thought" is very much more beneficial to healing,
          organ-system function, mood, and so on, than is just letting your
          thoughts run wild and/or stay in negativity.

          > The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts
          :-)
          > Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
          > Write them down as they appear.
          > Then, ask yourself, one by one,
          if you can be really certain, they
          are true.
          > If not, discard them.
          (Once you realize they are lies, you don´t
          want them anyway)
          > It takes
          some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they
          emerge again.
          > This part is beyond your control.

          > >and to
          just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in
          our minds, to go away.
          > >It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the
          time, even
          unaware,
          > >and even when we do not consciosly
          asks.
          >
          > Yes! In reality there are no
          problems.
           
          That's quite a judgement call, and I think that this statement itself
          is leaning towards magical thinking, and being in denial, and a whole
          bunch of other "problems".

          > Problems are caused by the
          mind,

          and the body, and other people, and stress, and other things that on
          our dualistic reality extistence level are "real".
           

          > suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose
          to
          believe in.

          Like much of what you have shared here. I'm sure you have good
          intentions, but medically I think you mistaken, and it would be a
          disaster to follow the path you are pointing to.
           

          > >Peace and Agape,
          > >Anna
          >
          >
          You too!
          > Tom

          Peace and blessings,
          Bob

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