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About Drugs and Meditation

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  • medit8ionsociety
    When you drink alcohol or smoke pot, or use any other drugs, it is not the drugs that get you high . It is the endorphins and other chemicals that your body
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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      When you drink alcohol or smoke pot, or use any other drugs, it is
      not the drugs that get you "high". It is the endorphins and other
      chemicals that your body produces that bring about the pleasurable
      feelings. If you can picture a lock on a door, and beyond the door is
      a room full of wonderful things, endorphins can be considered the key
      to the door. Drugs can make the endorphin key start to turn the lock
      that opens the door. And once the door is open, good things can come
      out of the room and they can be enjoyed. Some drugs open the door
      wider and for longer periods of times than others, but they all allow
      some amount of good-feeling things to be used. The problem is that
      they all have side effects that can be considered negative. For
      instance, alcohol can cause you to have driving accidents, pot can
      give you the munchies to such a degree that you gain too much weight,
      crack cocaine can cause you to steal from your own Grandmama to keep
      the high going on, and so on, and so on. Meditation is a no-side-
      effect way to release endorphins that can be relied on to keep the
      door open wide, and for long periods of time. This has been proven
      medically and scientifically in many research studies, and
      experientially by hundreds of people who meditate every day. So if
      your aim is to get high, try meditation - you'll like it!
    • jodyrrr
      ... wrote: Actually Bobji, the psychopharmacology of drugs are a bit more complex than you ve described. For instance, THC and its related cannabinoids have
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...>
        wrote:

        Actually Bobji, the psychopharmacology of drugs are a bit more
        complex than you've described. For instance, THC and its related
        cannabinoids have their own receptor in the forebrain. LSD,
        psilocybin, mescaline are serotonin mimics, as is ecstasy to a
        certain degree. In addition, cocaine addiction is regulated by
        dopamine receptors rather than having anything to do with
        endorphins. It's really only the opiates: heroin, methadone,
        codeine and the like, which are involved in the endorphin cycle,
        AFAIK.

        --jody.

        > When you drink alcohol or smoke pot, or use any other drugs, it is
        > not the drugs that get you "high". It is the endorphins and other
        > chemicals that your body produces that bring about the pleasurable
        > feelings. If you can picture a lock on a door, and beyond the door is
        > a room full of wonderful things, endorphins can be considered the key
        > to the door. Drugs can make the endorphin key start to turn the lock
        > that opens the door. And once the door is open, good things can come
        > out of the room and they can be enjoyed. Some drugs open the door
        > wider and for longer periods of times than others, but they all allow
        > some amount of good-feeling things to be used. The problem is that
        > they all have side effects that can be considered negative. For
        > instance, alcohol can cause you to have driving accidents, pot can
        > give you the munchies to such a degree that you gain too much weight,
        > crack cocaine can cause you to steal from your own Grandmama to keep
        > the high going on, and so on, and so on. Meditation is a no-side-
        > effect way to release endorphins that can be relied on to keep the
        > door open wide, and for long periods of time. This has been proven
        > medically and scientifically in many research studies, and
        > experientially by hundreds of people who meditate every day. So if
        > your aim is to get high, try meditation - you'll like it!
      • Anna Cardinal
        In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me off a physician s RX
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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          In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her come off of it.
          I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged part of the brain.
          Thanks,
          Anna

          jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:

          Actually Bobji, the psychopharmacology of drugs are a bit more
          complex than you've described.  For instance, THC and its related
          cannabinoids have their own receptor in the forebrain.  LSD,
          psilocybin, mescaline are serotonin mimics, as is ecstasy to a
          certain degree.  In addition, cocaine addiction is regulated by
          dopamine receptors rather than having anything to do with
          endorphins.  It's really only the opiates: heroin, methadone,
          codeine and the like, which are involved in the endorphin cycle,
          AFAIK.

          --jody.

          > When you drink alcohol or smoke pot, or use any other drugs, it is
          > not the drugs that get you "high". It is the endorphins and other
          > chemicals that your body produces that bring about the pleasurable
          > feelings. If you can picture a lock on a door, and beyond the door is
          > a room full of wonderful things, endorphins can be considered the key
          > to the door. Drugs can make the endorphin key start to turn the lock
          > that opens the door. And once the door is open, good things can come
          > out of the room and they can be enjoyed. Some drugs open the door
          > wider and for longer periods of times than others, but they all allow
          > some amount of good-feeling things to be used. The problem is that
          > they all have side effects that can be considered negative. For
          > instance, alcohol can cause you to have driving accidents, pot can
          > give you the munchies to such a degree that you gain too much weight,
          > crack cocaine can cause you to steal from your own Grandmama to keep
          > the high going on, and so on, and so on. Meditation is a no-side-
          > effect way to release endorphins that can be relied on to keep the
          > door open wide, and for long periods of time. This has been proven
          > medically and scientifically in many research studies, and
          > experientially by hundreds of people who meditate every day. So if
          > your aim is to get high, try meditation - you'll like it!



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        • medit8ionsociety
          ... ... Dear Sri Jody, As usual, you re right on the money! I initally did refer to endorphins and other chemicals that your body produces ,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > Actually Bobji, the psychopharmacology of drugs are a bit more
            > complex than you've described. For instance, THC and its related
            > cannabinoids have their own receptor in the forebrain. LSD,
            > psilocybin, mescaline are serotonin mimics, as is ecstasy to a
            > certain degree. In addition, cocaine addiction is regulated by
            > dopamine receptors rather than having anything to do with
            > endorphins. It's really only the opiates: heroin, methadone,
            > codeine and the like, which are involved in the endorphin cycle,
            > AFAIK.
            >
            > --jody.

            Dear Sri Jody,

            As usual, you're right on the money! I initally did refer to
            "endorphins and other chemicals that your body produces", but then
            went on to just use the term endorphins as a catch all for all the
            inner drugs our body makes. I actually wrote this for a 15 year old
            who inquired about using meditation vs drugs as a vehicle for "getting
            high". She was tired of having to steal to afford the pot she felt was
            the only way to open new doors of perception, as Blake might have put
            it. So, I used "endorphins" as a sort of short-hand that I thought she
            could follow easily, and just get to my little message.

            Actually about 4 or 5 years ago, they (scientists or some other
            notable "they's") coined a phrase that I love for the good inner
            juices that our bodies chemical factories produce...they called them
            Anandamides (bliss-producing substances). And as Dr Herbert Benson of
            Harvard demonstrated 30 years ago in his Relaxation Response studies,
            and as recent MRI and PET scans have shown in studies with advanced
            meditators like Buddhist Lamas, "getting high"(attaining a meditative
            state) is also a matter of turning off certain chemicals, like
            adrenalin, and the brain and nervous system activities they stimulate.
            And meditation is a very valid and safe method to release Anandamides.

            In any event, besides all the science and 'drug-taking is bad' scare
            tactics, as I am led to understand it, Meditation is now about $500
            cheaper than an ounce of good quality pot:-)

            Peace and blessings,
            Bob

            >
            > > When you drink alcohol or smoke pot, or use any other drugs, it is
            > > not the drugs that get you "high". It is the endorphins and other
            > > chemicals that your body produces that bring about the pleasurable
            > > feelings. If you can picture a lock on a door, and beyond the door is
            > > a room full of wonderful things, endorphins can be considered the key
            > > to the door. Drugs can make the endorphin key start to turn the lock
            > > that opens the door. And once the door is open, good things can come
            > > out of the room and they can be enjoyed. Some drugs open the door
            > > wider and for longer periods of times than others, but they all allow
            > > some amount of good-feeling things to be used. The problem is that
            > > they all have side effects that can be considered negative. For
            > > instance, alcohol can cause you to have driving accidents, pot can
            > > give you the munchies to such a degree that you gain too much weight,
            > > crack cocaine can cause you to steal from your own Grandmama to keep
            > > the high going on, and so on, and so on. Meditation is a no-side-
            > > effect way to release endorphins that can be relied on to keep the
            > > door open wide, and for long periods of time. This has been proven
            > > medically and scientifically in many research studies, and
            > > experientially by hundreds of people who meditate every day. So if
            > > your aim is to get high, try meditation - you'll like it!
          • medit8ionsociety
            ... any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me off a physician s RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have been on it now
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Anna Cardinal
              <kalinitkadrimos@y...> wrote:
              > In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me
              any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me
              off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have
              been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend
              who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her
              come off of it.
              > I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two
              daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged
              part of the brain.
              > Thanks,
              > Anna

              Dear Anna,

              As a psych RN, I am well aware of the dilemma you are facing, and
              understand your frustration. But the best advise I feel I can give you
              is to review your medications with your physician, and to follow
              her/his directions as to the amounts you should be taking. It is
              potentially very dangerous to decrease, increase, or stop taking any
              psychoactive medication without "real" medical direction. I am
              wondering when the last time you discussed this situation with your
              physician, and think that with your doctors help, you may well be able
              to make use of other medications that are now available to accomplish
              the same result as was hoped to be attained with Clonozepam.

              I do think that many doctors are sometimes too quick to simply
              prescribe drugs for panic attacks, anxiety, stress reduction, and a
              host of other conditions, without exploring the benefits of so-called
              alternate health therapies. Meditation has been found to be very
              effective for many conditions as diverse as pain management, diabetic
              control, good cardiac health, and so on, as well as for many emotional
              and mental health situations. As far as what technique would be good
              for you, I think you will have to discover this for yourself. I
              suggest checking out our web site (Meditation Station
              http://www.meditationsociety.com ) and going to the Archive section.
              There you will find many different "How-to" meditation techniques. Try
              a few and if you find one (or more) that bring you peace, mental
              clarity, physical comfort, and other "good' adjectives, that would be
              the right one for you.

              I wish you well.

              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
            • Anna Cardinal
              Thank you for such a quick response Bob. Spoke to a doctor today (debating to have a thyrodectomy or not) He absolutey refuses to help, as have more than a
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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                Thank you for such a quick response Bob.
                Spoke to a doctor today (debating to have a thyrodectomy or not)
                He absolutey refuses to help, as have more than a dozen physicians.
                I think I will work on it within my spirit in meditation time, and just ask God to remove the need for such a toxin.
                Again, I thank you so much, and am really enjoying your website.
                Agape,
                Anna

                medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Anna Cardinal
                <kalinitkadrimos@y...> wrote:
                > In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me
                any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me
                off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have
                been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend
                who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her
                come off of it.
                > I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two
                daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged
                part of the brain.
                > Thanks,
                > Anna

                Dear Anna,

                As a psych RN, I am well aware of the dilemma you are facing, and
                understand your frustration. But the best advise I feel I can give you
                is to review your medications with your physician, and to follow
                her/his directions as to the amounts you should be taking. It is
                potentially very dangerous to decrease, increase, or stop taking any
                psychoactive medication without "real" medical direction. I am
                wondering when the last time you discussed this situation with your
                physician, and think that with your doctors help, you may well be able
                to make use of other medications that are now available to accomplish
                the same result as was hoped to be attained with Clonozepam.

                I do think that many doctors are sometimes too quick to simply
                prescribe drugs for panic attacks, anxiety, stress reduction, and a
                host of other conditions, without exploring the benefits of so-called
                alternate health therapies. Meditation has been found to be very
                effective for many conditions as diverse as pain management, diabetic
                control, good cardiac health, and so on, as well as for many emotional
                and mental health situations. As far as what technique would be good
                for you, I think you will have to discover this for yourself. I
                suggest checking out our web site (Meditation Station
                http://www.meditationsociety.com ) and going to the Archive section.
                There you will find many different "How-to" meditation techniques. Try
                a few and if you find one (or more) that bring you peace, mental
                clarity, physical comfort, and other "good' adjectives, that would be
                the right one for you.

                I wish you well.

                Peace and blessings,
                Bob


                __________________________________________________
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              • jodyrrr
                ... wrote: [snip] ... Bobji, I think you re living on the wrong side of the country. With the right associations , the highest quality can be procured for
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...>
                  wrote:

                  [snip]

                  > Meditation is now about $500
                  > cheaper than an ounce of good quality pot:-)
                  >
                  > Peace and blessings,
                  > Bob

                  Bobji, I think you're living on the wrong side of the country.
                  With the right "associations", the highest quality can be procured
                  for about half that.

                  Still expensive perhaps for some folk, but a little of this flower
                  can go a long way for many. ;)

                  --jody.
                • sandeep
                  Hi Anna, Have you tried Pranayam, specially KapilBhatti and Avlong-Velong? Which are meditations using the tool of breathing. What issue is being addressed
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 18, 2004
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                    Hi Anna,
                     
                    Have you tried Pranayam, specially KapilBhatti and Avlong-Velong?
                     
                    Which are meditations using the tool of breathing.
                     
                    What issue is being addressed with the chemical you are taking?
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 4:51 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                    Thank you for such a quick response Bob.
                    Spoke to a doctor today (debating to have a thyrodectomy or not)
                    He absolutey refuses to help, as have more than a dozen physicians.
                    I think I will work on it within my spirit in meditation time, and just ask God to remove the need for such a toxin.
                    Again, I thank you so much, and am really enjoying your website.
                    Agape,
                    Anna

                    medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Anna Cardinal
                    <kalinitkadrimos@y...> wrote:
                    > In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me
                    any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me
                    off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have
                    been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend
                    who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her
                    come off of it.
                    > I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two
                    daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged
                    part of the brain.
                    > Thanks,
                    > Anna

                  • Jason Fishman
                    Anna Cardinal wrote: In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me any ideas as to what type of meditation to
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
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                      Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@...> wrote:
                      In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her come off of it.
                       
                      I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged part of the brain.
                       
                      Thanks,
                      Anna
                       
                      Hi Anna,
                       
                      I was prescribed a very similar mind altering drug (it might have been clonozepam, since the name rings a bell) as well, some 15 years ago. I'm not sure why your taking the med, but I was taking it for sever panic disorder, such as they call it. I was at a point, especially when I was younger (from 10 on up) having panic attacks weekly and if not sometimes daily. Often it would get to the point that I could not leave the house for fear of having one in public, which is often even worse then just being home.

                      I can only tell you some history about where I am currently and what came through during all my searching for a cure. Ultimately though it's not much more then simple submittion to the fear that arose.
                       
                      As a child it had started one evening when home with my parents, I may have been about 8 or 9. I'm not sure what envoked it, but I remember being certain that I wouldn't be able to breath and had the dreed of dying. At that time I didn't know anything about medical, biological anything nor did I have any idea about life in general. I was actually quite lucky to have a mother that would come down from her often angery point of view to try and comfort me. For some years after it was prevelent, but not major to which I would be afraid to do things with people around.
                       
                      When I turned 13 it happened again, in which I actually almost passed out! From that point on it was like a splinter in my minds eye that I would be subdued by this fear no matter what I did and it continued to happen over and over again. My mom, not knowing what todo sent me to doctor after doctor, none of which did anything for it. Then one day I was sent to a "specialist" who was no more then a counsellor that knew about this problem well and started me on breathing exercises. He, not explaining that it was an eastern technique of meditative breathing, told me straight out that this fear needed to be looked into directly, faced head on, but at 13 years old it was not something I was really even ready to do. He assured me that there really was nothing wrong with me physically and that at this age was the perfect time for me to do this, to stare the fear right in it's face. He really didn't teach me much about the workings of it (like brain chemistry and so on) those things weren't nearly anything more then an after affect of the build up of fear I had played out in my mind over and over again. I also, throughout all the years after that counsel, learned to gauge my thoughts as to when a panic attack was approaching. All this through very simple awareness, starting with breathing, then with observence of thought and then diving head first in to philosphy of life and the prudent aspect of death.
                       
                      I have had a few minor attacks over the years after and two major ones during my marriage, but after my divorce I drove full on into the mechanism of me full out. Doing all sorts of meditation and visualisation stuff. Remote viewing, vivid dreaming, heart control, exercise and all sorts of things that incorporated mind, body then eventually mind body in relation to the universe at large. Through all the very powerful realizations I have had among all this stuff, I have yet to even be in panic mode even amongst the most torturous events. What I'm addressing here for the most part is to be direct in what it is that you believe and what it is that is that is the true problem that you have been prescribed drugs to control. Also realize that anything can become habitual, from clothing to drug taking, to loving and focus on the ones that really have any power over you and your behaviors. Just in doing these things, it might just dissolve alot of the reliance on the medication. Please also note, I'm not a physician, nor have I seen a physician in many years and that this stuff is the stuff that has occured with me over the years, removing yourself from the medication too, is possible. It's been many years (7 or so) since I've had any symptoms. Although I never became reliant on any of the drugs offered, I simply refused to.
                       
                      Peace and Love


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                    • tom flou
                      Comments to Anna s and Jason s mail: I would like to offer my way of looking at this. To make it short and simple: Anxiety comes in many disguises with a broad
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
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                        Comments to Anna’s and Jason’s mail:

                         

                        I would like to offer my way of looking at this.

                        To make it short and simple: Anxiety comes in many disguises

                        with a broad spectrum of symptoms from mild situation-caused

                        discomfort trough chronic anxiety disorder to full blown panic,

                        where the person suffering is convinced of imminent death.

                        There is no real danger involved, but it is very difficult for the sufferer to grasp,

                        as this fact is in gross contradiction to her very direct experience;

                        though the relative harmlessness can be perceived in between attacks.

                        I presume it all starts with a body feeling or an emotion that the mind

                        interprets as a sign of threat to the body or the self-esteem of the person.

                        Now, we all experiences this from time to time but are able to stop it from escalating,

                        whence the candidate for anxiety disorder has lost this brake and are thus incapable

                        of stopping the process. This gives rise to new emotional responses that can

                        aggravate the initial body feeling, give rise to muscular tensions,

                        release of stress hormones and mental catastrophe interpretations.

                        A circulus virtuosus is set in motion. 

                        The bodily symptoms are often perceived very real, giving rise to unnecessary,

                        extensive and expensive medical investigations of internal organs.

                        The symptoms may dominate in the chest region, the abdomen or in various

                        muscle groups but the basic feeling is that there is something in the body

                        that is very wrong, that should not be there.

                        Something I will not accept the way it is.

                        So I am fighting it. Will get rid of it.

                        And this very fight is the heart of the problem.

                        In reality there is no other problem.

                        Anxious persons often get the advice from friends and even from therapists,

                        that they need to stop thinking these worrying thoughts,

                        but as the fact is, that we have no control over which thoughts appear in our minds,  

                        this advice is impossible to practice and is therefore an additional,

                        not needed burden for the anxious person.

                        There is something to be done, though.

                        If we practice to examine the thoughts that appear and question their

                        truth-value before we accept them.

                        If we avoid identification with them, they lose their force over us.

                        So the fear is a part of the individual suvival mekanism.

                        Understood and acceptet as such it is not a problem.

                        The fear of the fear, is the problem.

                        I like to think of a little man sitting in the tunnel to the thought factory.

                        He is in charge of which thoughts to send up to “us”

                        but we have no control over him.

                        He is not malicious, though.

                        He just notice which kind of thoughts we prefer, that is,

                        which thoughts we give attention and time to.

                        These thoughts he sends up again and again presuming we like them.

                        If he should notice that we start to discard a certain type of thoughts,

                        their frequency will diminish. That’s the control we can have.

                        And as Jason says: The way out of anxiety is through it.

                        That is, it has to be accepted, not avoided, and once it is accepted

                        and understood - surrendered to - it is no more.

                        This thought modification is the essence of cognitive psychotherapy,

                        and here is help to be found within the medical system.

                        I am sure that meditation can be very helpful in quieting the mind

                        and learning to pay attention to what’s going on there.

                        Observing it from the "outside" in a manner of speaking. 

                        I also like Byron Katies simple method for “proofreading” of thoughts.

                         

                        Clonazepam is a drug in the group of medications called Bensodiazepines,

                        used for the treatment of anxiety, epilepsy, sleep disorders and muscular tension.

                        These drugs have no curing potential and can only be used

                        for short duration symptom relief (Other than epilepsy).

                        They are addictive, but not impossible to get rid of.

                        If used for a long time, they have to be discontinued slowly

                        and supportively and it is very important that the underlying

                        anxiety- producing thought patterns are realized and corrected,

                        otherwise the patient is back where she started.

                        Bensodiazepines are not known to cause permanent brain damage.

                         

                        Cheers

                        Tom.

                         

                      • Anna Cardinal
                        Dear Jason, Thank you so much for your wonderful E-Mail. I am just wanting to be free of any outside toxins that are just not necessay, but it will take time.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
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                          Dear Jason,
                          Thank you so much for your wonderful E-Mail.
                          I am just wanting to be free of any outside toxins that are just not necessay, but it will take time.
                          I have pulled myself off of about 9 meds, and am down now to just this one.(I believe part of my hatred for it, is a close friend took her life with it and alcohol.
                          Thank you for your compliments. You are very well versed, and look forward to hearing from you again,
                          I remain,
                          Anna

                          Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@...> wrote:
                          Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@...> wrote:
                          In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her come off of it.
                           
                          I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged part of the brain.
                           
                          Thanks,
                          Anna
                           
                          Hi Anna,
                           
                          I was prescribed a very similar mind altering drug (it might have been clonozepam, since the name rings a bell) as well, some 15 years ago. I'm not sure why your taking the med, but I was taking it for sever panic disorder, such as they call it. I was at a point, especially when I was younger (from 10 on up) having panic attacks weekly and if not sometimes daily. Often it would get to the point that I could not leave the house for fear of having one in public, which is often even worse then just being home.

                          I can only tell you some history about where I am currently and what came through during all my searching for a cure. Ultimately though it's not much more then simple submittion to the fear that arose.
                           
                          As a child it had started one evening when home with my parents, I may have been about 8 or 9. I'm not sure what envoked it, but I remember being certain that I wouldn't be able to breath and had the dreed of dying. At that time I didn't know anything about medical, biological anything nor did I have any idea about life in general. I was actually quite lucky to have a mother that would come down from her often angery point of view to try and comfort me. For some years after it was prevelent, but not major to which I would be afraid to do things with people around.
                           
                          When I turned 13 it happened again, in which I actually almost passed out! From that point on it was like a splinter in my minds eye that I would be subdued by this fear no matter what I did and it continued to happen over and over again. My mom, not knowing what todo sent me to doctor after doctor, none of which did anything for it. Then one day I was sent to a "specialist" who was no more then a counsellor that knew about this problem well and started me on breathing exercises. He, not explaining that it was an eastern technique of meditative breathing, told me straight out that this fear needed to be looked into directly, faced head on, but at 13 years old it was not something I was really even ready to do. He assured me that there really was nothing wrong with me physically and that at this age was the perfect time for me to do this, to stare the fear right in it's face. He really didn't teach me much about the workings of it (like brain chemistry and so on) those things weren't nearly anything more then an after affect of the build up of fear I had played out in my mind over and over again. I also, throughout all the years after that counsel, learned to gauge my thoughts as to when a panic attack was approaching. All this through very simple awareness, starting with breathing, then with observence of thought and then diving head first in to philosphy of life and the prudent aspect of death.
                           
                          I have had a few minor attacks over the years after and two major ones during my marriage, but after my divorce I drove full on into the mechanism of me full out. Doing all sorts of meditation and visualisation stuff. Remote viewing, vivid dreaming, heart control, exercise and all sorts of things that incorporated mind, body then eventually mind body in relation to the universe at large. Through all the very powerful realizations I have had among all this stuff, I have yet to even be in panic mode even amongst the most torturous events. What I'm addressing here for the most part is to be direct in what it is that you believe and what it is that is that is the true problem that you have been prescribed drugs to control. Also realize that anything can become habitual, from clothing to drug taking, to loving and focus on the ones that really have any power over you and your behaviors. Just in doing these things, it might just dissolve alot of the reliance on the medication. Please also note, I'm not a physician, nor have I seen a physician in many years and that this stuff is the stuff that has occured with me over the years, removing yourself from the medication too, is possible. It's been many years (7 or so) since I've had any symptoms. Although I never became reliant on any of the drugs offered, I simply refused to.
                           
                          Peace and Love


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                        • Anna Cardinal
                          Dear Sandeep, Thank you for your reply. The purpose of the medication was after a complete and total hysterectomy in l988, I began having really bad panick
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Sandeep,
                            Thank you for your reply.
                            The purpose of the medication was after a complete and total hysterectomy in l988, I began having really bad panick attacks, and the DX with PTSD,
                            As a nurse I know I should have only been on it short term, and then weaned off, but none of the military doc's wanted to handle that, and now I still cannot convince somenone to try.Most believe in the profession it is the equivalent of coming off Heroin.
                            I have got it sometimes to almost 0, but after a few days, you have a sense of you are gong to lose it. It in itself is a nightmare, and I believe God does not want this toxin in my body anymore.
                            How do I research the methods you suggested?
                            Thanks,
                            Anna

                            sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
                            Hi Anna,
                             
                            Have you tried Pranayam, specially KapilBhatti and Avlong-Velong?
                             
                            Which are meditations using the tool of breathing.
                             
                            What issue is being addressed with the chemical you are taking?
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 4:51 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                            Thank you for such a quick response Bob.
                            Spoke to a doctor today (debating to have a thyrodectomy or not)
                            He absolutey refuses to help, as have more than a dozen physicians.
                            I think I will work on it within my spirit in meditation time, and just ask God to remove the need for such a toxin.
                            Again, I thank you so much, and am really enjoying your website.
                            Agape,
                            Anna

                            medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Anna Cardinal
                            <kalinitkadrimos@y...> wrote:
                            > In reading your excellent correspondence to Jody, can you give me
                            any ideas as to what type of meditation to begin using, to help get me
                            off a physician's RX of Clonozepem .50mg three times daily? I have
                            been on it now for 15 yearsand absolutely hate it. I had a girlfriend
                            who took her life in 1996 because she could not get anyone to help her
                            come off of it.
                            > I have never increased the dosage, infact, try to stick to only two
                            daily, but w/o cannot even begin to sleep. I do believe it has damaged
                            part of the brain.
                            > Thanks,
                            > Anna


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                          • Anna Cardinal
                            Tom, Thank you for great information. This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is possibley irreversible. I am working very hard at being
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
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                              Tom,
                              Thank you for great information.
                              This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is possibley irreversible.
                              I am working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought", and to just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in our minds, to go away. It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the time, even unaware, and even when we do not consciosly asks.
                              Peace and Agape,
                              Anna

                              tom flou <tom@...> wrote:
                               

                              Comments to Anna�s and Jason�s mail:

                               

                              I would like to offer my way of looking at this.

                              To make it short and simple: Anxiety comes in many disguises

                              with a broad spectrum of symptoms from mild situation-caused

                              discomfort trough chronic anxiety disorder to full blown panic,

                              where the person suffering is convinced of imminent death.

                              There is no real danger involved, but it is very difficult for the sufferer to grasp,

                              as this fact is in gross contradiction to her very direct experience;

                              though the relative harmlessness can be perceived in between attacks.

                              I presume it all starts with a body feeling or an emotion that the mind

                              interprets as a sign of threat to the body or the self-esteem of the person.

                              Now, we all experiences this from time to time but are able to stop it from escalating,

                              whence the candidate for anxiety disorder has lost this brake and are thus incapable

                              of stopping the process. This gives rise to new emotional responses that can

                              aggravate the initial body feeling, give rise to muscular tensions,

                              release of stress hormones and mental catastrophe interpretations.

                              A circulus virtuosus is set in motion. 

                              The bodily symptoms are often perceived very real, giving rise to unnecessary,

                              extensive and expensive medical investigations of internal organs.

                              The symptoms may dominate in the chest region, the abdomen or in various

                              muscle groups but the basic feeling is that there is something in the body

                              that is very wrong, that should not be there.

                              Something I will not accept the way it is.

                              So I am fighting it. Will get rid of it.

                              And this very fight is the heart of the problem.

                              In reality there is no other problem.

                              Anxious persons often get the advice from friends and even from therapists,

                              that they need to stop thinking these worrying thoughts,

                              but as the fact is, that we have no control over which thoughts appear in our minds,  

                              this advice is impossible to practice and is therefore an additional,

                              not needed burden for the anxious person.

                              There is something to be done, though.

                              If we practice to examine the thoughts that appear and question their

                              truth-value before we accept them.

                              If we avoid identification with them, they lose their force over us.

                              So the fear is a part of the individual suvival mekanism.

                              Understood and acceptet as such it is not a problem.

                              The fear of the fear, is the problem.

                              I like to think of a little man sitting in the tunnel to the thought factory.

                              He is in charge of which thoughts to send up to �us�

                              but we have no control over him.

                              He is not malicious, though.

                              He just notice which kind of thoughts we prefer, that is,

                              which thoughts we give attention and time to.

                              These thoughts he sends up again and again presuming we like them.

                              If he should notice that we start to discard a certain type of thoughts,

                              their frequency will diminish. That�s the control we can have.

                              And as Jason says: The way out of anxiety is through it.

                              That is, it has to be accepted, not avoided, and once it is accepted

                              and understood - surrendered to - it is no more.

                              This thought modification is the essence of cognitive psychotherapy,

                              and here is help to be found within the medical system.

                              I am sure that meditation can be very helpful in quieting the mind

                              and learning to pay attention to what�s going on there.

                              Observing it from the "outside" in a manner of speaking. 

                              I also like Byron Katies simple method for �proofreading� of thoughts.

                               

                              Clonazepam is a drug in the group of medications called Bensodiazepines,

                              used for the treatment of anxiety, epilepsy, sleep disorders and muscular tension.

                              These drugs have no curing potential and can only be used

                              for short duration symptom relief (Other than epilepsy).

                              They are addictive, but not impossible to get rid of.

                              If used for a long time, they have to be discontinued slowly

                              and supportively and it is very important that the underlying

                              anxiety- producing thought patterns are realized and corrected,

                              otherwise the patient is back where she started.

                              Bensodiazepines are not known to cause permanent brain damage.

                               

                              Cheers

                              Tom.

                               


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                            • Jason Fishman
                              Sorry about the title change I just couldn t help the opportunity :-) As Tom says Anna, thoughts pop up out of nowhere sometimes and they do hold a certain
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
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                                Sorry about the title change I just couldn't help the opportunity :-)
                                 
                                As Tom says Anna, thoughts pop up out of nowhere sometimes and they do hold a certain power over the body and it's defenses. But often times those thoughts are truly false, there is really nothing wrong, many times I feel it comming from people around me. Although it has taken years to divy up what thoughts I would like to address and which are discarded, my ex wife still invokes certain thoughts that build up to anxious thoughts. I have seen this pattern clearly with another women that my presence did the same to as well. Much like the suns rays only have the strength over closer distances, so does the waves of mind. Those that are closest to us often pick up and send signals to us which makes it tough to decifer which ones are actually eminating from your though patterns and someone elses. Some people are highly atune to these patterns and those are the ones that tend to suffer more these symptoms then others that seem quite oblivious.
                                 
                                I like the little man idea Tom used but most often there are no centrally located thoughts being picked up on, being alone, facing your fearful thoughts directly and focusing on what you can use and what you cannot is the best method.
                                 
                                I often used to have the dreeds in hospital settings. When my children were born it was a nightmare up till the powerful flush of the experience of birth, when everything became OK. I see the pattern much clearer now and can utilize thoughts in a constructive way, instead of a destructive (self and other) way.
                                 
                                You mentioned being a nurse and that occupation is prime burn out, especially for those more in tune with the emotions around them. My ex is also a nurse and not so oddly enough, takes clonozapam when needed to smooth out the emotional rush from all the folks struggling with ailments and fears. I just found this out today actually (about the meds) as we had a discussion on it, provoked by your e-mail. The good news for you is, you can sort it out, there are subtle control mechs in place that can make things much smoother for you. I hope you can take some time to do that!
                                 
                                Peace and Love

                                Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@...> wrote:
                                Tom,
                                Thank you for great information.
                                This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is possibley irreversible.
                                I am working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought", and to just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in our minds, to go away. It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the time, even unaware, and even when we do not consciosly asks.
                                Peace and Agape,
                                Anna

                                tom flou <tom@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Comments to Anna�s and Jason�s mail:

                                 

                                I would like to offer my way of looking at this.

                                To make it short and simple: Anxiety comes in many disguises

                                with a broad spectrum of symptoms from mild situation-caused

                                discomfort trough chronic anxiety disorder to full blown panic,

                                where the person suffering is convinced of imminent death.

                                There is no real danger involved, but it is very difficult for the sufferer to grasp,

                                as this fact is in gross contradiction to her very direct experience;

                                though the relative harmlessness can be perceived in between attacks.

                                I presume it all starts with a body feeling or an emotion that the mind

                                interprets as a sign of threat to the body or the self-esteem of the person.

                                Now, we all experiences this from time to time but are able to stop it from escalating,

                                whence the candidate for anxiety disorder has lost this brake and are thus incapable

                                of stopping the process. This gives rise to new emotional responses that can

                                aggravate the initial body feeling, give rise to muscular tensions,

                                release of stress hormones and mental catastrophe interpretations.

                                A circulus virtuosus is set in motion. 

                                The bodily symptoms are often perceived very real, giving rise to unnecessary,

                                extensive and expensive medical investigations of internal organs.

                                The symptoms may dominate in the chest region, the abdomen or in various

                                muscle groups but the basic feeling is that there is something in the body

                                that is very wrong, that should not be there.

                                Something I will not accept the way it is.

                                So I am fighting it. Will get rid of it.

                                And this very fight is the heart of the problem.

                                In reality there is no other problem.

                                Anxious persons often get the advice from friends and even from therapists,

                                that they need to stop thinking these worrying thoughts,

                                but as the fact is, that we have no control over which thoughts appear in our minds,  

                                this advice is impossible to practice and is therefore an additional,

                                not needed burden for the anxious person.

                                There is something to be done, though.

                                If we practice to examine the thoughts that appear and question their

                                truth-value before we accept them.

                                If we avoid identification with them, they lose their force over us.

                                So the fear is a part of the individual suvival mekanism.

                                Understood and acceptet as such it is not a problem.

                                The fear of the fear, is the problem.

                                I like to think of a little man sitting in the tunnel to the thought factory.

                                He is in charge of which thoughts to send up to �us�

                                but we have no control over him.

                                He is not malicious, though.

                                He just notice which kind of thoughts we prefer, that is,

                                which thoughts we give attention and time to.

                                These thoughts he sends up again and again presuming we like them.

                                If he should notice that we start to discard a certain type of thoughts,

                                their frequency will diminish. That�s the control we can have.

                                And as Jason says: The way out of anxiety is through it.

                                That is, it has to be accepted, not avoided, and once it is accepted

                                and understood - surrendered to - it is no more.

                                This thought modification is the essence of cognitive psychotherapy,

                                and here is help to be found within the medical system.

                                I am sure that meditation can be very helpful in quieting the mind

                                and learning to pay attention to what�s going on there.

                                Observing it from the "outside" in a manner of speaking. 

                                I also like Byron Katies simple method for �proofreading� of thoughts.

                                 

                                Clonazepam is a drug in the group of medications called Bensodiazepines,

                                used for the treatment of anxiety, epilepsy, sleep disorders and muscular tension.

                                These drugs have no curing potential and can only be used

                                for short duration symptom relief (Other than epilepsy).

                                They are addictive, but not impossible to get rid of.

                                If used for a long time, they have to be discontinued slowly

                                and supportively and it is very important that the underlying

                                anxiety- producing thought patterns are realized and corrected,

                                otherwise the patient is back where she started.

                                Bensodiazepines are not known to cause permanent brain damage.

                                 

                                Cheers

                                Tom.

                                 


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                              • sandeep
                                ... From: Anna Cardinal To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 19, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:05 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                                  Dear Sandeep,
                                  Thank you for your reply.
                                  The purpose of the medication was after a complete and total hysterectomy in l988, I began having really bad panick attacks, and the DX with PTSD,
                                  As a nurse I know I should have only been on it short term, and then weaned off, but none of the military doc's wanted to handle that, and now I still cannot convince somenone to try.Most believe in the profession it is the equivalent of coming off Heroin.
                                  I have got it sometimes to almost 0, but after a few days, you have a sense of you are gong to lose it. It in itself is a nightmare, and I believe God does not want this toxin in my body anymore.
                                  How do I research the methods you suggested?
                                   
                                  ---------
                                   
                                   
                                  Hi Anna,
                                   
                                  Pranayam is one of the components of Yoga, which as mentioned earlier,..... involves breathing.
                                   
                                  There are 5-6 different Pranayams, the basic being KapilBhatti and Avlong-Velong.
                                   
                                  I suspected that the medication that you were taking was to address panic attacks and or depression and KB and A-V is very effective for this.
                                   
                                  Unlike the other components of Yoga, Pranayams do not involve esoteric body postures or contortions.
                                   
                                  And you cannot do them "wrong".:-)
                                   
                                  If what you are doing is "incorrect", the effectiveness is that much reduced.
                                   
                                  That's all.
                                   
                                  The key aspect for doing all Pranayams is in the sitting position and for the the spine to be straight.
                                   
                                  They are to be done preferably at dawn, preferably out in the open, and on an empty stomach, sitting in the Lotus Position.
                                   
                                  If out in the open is not an option, sit within the house with open windows or sit on the balcony.
                                   
                                  Basically where you are able to freely access fresh clean air.
                                   
                                  Empty stomach (both empty bowels and empty of any intake)ensures that breathing will deep.
                                   
                                  The time at dawn, or early morning is the best time to do Pranayams.
                                   
                                  Sitting in the Lotus position automatically ensures the straightened spine.
                                   
                                  The Lotus Position is the cross-legged sitting position, where the heel of one leg rests on the thigh of the other and the vice versa.
                                   
                                  Now if Lotus position is difficult, try it for whatever time possible.
                                   
                                  If impossible, just sit in the normal sitting position with your folded legs resting on the ground, in front of you.
                                   
                                  In Lotus Position, your spine is automatically straight, so you don't have to bother trying to remember to keep your spine straight.
                                   
                                  In the other sitting position, there is a possibility to slouch (after some time), so if you find yourself slouching, just make your spine straight again.
                                   
                                  Doing Pranayama with a slouched spine, does not harm you.
                                   
                                  It just does not benefit you as much as is possible.
                                   
                                  So spine straight, sitting posture, eyes closed, ..............the two Pranayams.
                                   
                                   
                                  KapilBhatti
                                   
                                  Spine straight, sitting posture (Lotus or cross-legged), eyes closed, the back of your hands resting on your knees,... the index finger touching your thumb to form a closed circle.
                                   
                                  KapilBhatti,......... involves the taking in your breath, through both the nostrils, as deeply as possible, (your chest should fill out, you should feel your ribs expanding) and then blowing out the breath again through both the nostrils as forcefully as you can.
                                   
                                  Throw out the whole of the intake breath.
                                   
                                  While you are throwing out the breath, pull your stomach in, as far back as possible.
                                   
                                  So breath in,....... stomach out.
                                   
                                  Breath out...........stomach in.
                                   
                                  Keep doing this, till a natural rhythm is established.
                                   
                                  After this rhythm is established, increase the rapidity.
                                   
                                  So deep breaths going in and out while simultaneously stomach going out and in(reverse direction to the breath).
                                   
                                  Do it slowly in the beginning but there shoud be No gaps between one "breath-in/stomach out-breathout/stomach in",.............and the next set.
                                   
                                  So spine straight, rapid "sets" of this breathing-stomach movements.
                                   
                                  In the attempt to increase the rapidity, don't make your breaths shallow.
                                   
                                  Deep, chest-filling rib-expanding inhalations and then full "snorty" exhalations.
                                   
                                  Your exhalations must be making noises, just like a snorting horse, (if you have ever stood next to a horse)
                                   
                                  Mucus may come out of the nostrils.
                                   
                                  Ignore it or wipe it away, if bothering you.
                                   
                                  And your stomach must be pulled in, as much as far back as possible.
                                   
                                  (For adept practioners, doing Pranayams over years, the shape of the spine is visible to an observer, when the stomach is pulled in.)
                                   
                                   
                                  When the natural rhythm is established, you will find your full upper torso also moving in that rhythm. 
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  In the begining, you will find, after maybe just 60 seconds, you are out of breath.
                                   
                                  Stop and relax.
                                   
                                  Breath as you normally do.
                                   
                                  And then get back to KapilBhatti.
                                   
                                  For the first week, if you are able to do 15-20 KapilBhatti(s) per minute, you are dong fine.
                                   
                                  Finally, maybe within 2-3 weeks, you will doing 45-60 KapilBhatti per minute.
                                   
                                  Again, for the first week, if you can do 2-3 mins of Kapil Bhatti(s), you are doing fine.
                                   
                                  Finally you will doing for 10 mins.
                                   
                                  10 mins of KapilBhatti, at the rate of 60 per minute.
                                   
                                  That's all you have to do, around 600 KapilBhattis over a 10 mins duration, per day.
                                   
                                   
                                  The key is not to strain, not to bother with the minor pains here and there and as soon as you feel you are panting, to stop and take a break.
                                   
                                  Break does not mean getting up from your Lotus position or sitting position.
                                   
                                  Just stop doing KapilBhatti, for few moments.
                                   
                                  And then get back to it. 
                                   
                                  Once you have finished KapilBhatti for the day, ....................for few moments just remain in the sitting position, eyes closed, .......observe whatever is the experience happening in the moment.
                                   
                                  Don't disparage the experience ("been this, done this"), ..........don't invest in the experience.
                                   
                                  Just observe.
                                   
                                  And after some time (whatever, you feel like) proceed to Avlong-Velong.
                                   
                                  If you feel like, you may like to wipe your face with a cloth, clean the nostrils areas.
                                   
                                  If knees/ legs are aching for having sat for 10 mins, .........remain sitting stretch out your legs, ankles together, rotate both your ankles clockwise, and then anti-clockwise.
                                   
                                  Proceed to come back to cross-legged sitting position and start Avlong-Velong.
                                   
                                  Avlong-Velong
                                   
                                  Same sitting position, spine straight, eyes closed.
                                  Here the right hand will be used, so hands not resting on the knees.
                                   
                                  With the thumb of your right hand, close your right nostril and inhale deeply through your left nostril.
                                   
                                  With the index finger of the right hand, close the left nostril, open thumb and exhale through the right nostril.
                                   
                                  After full exhalation, breathe in through the right nostril(the left  nostril still remains closed with the index finger).
                                  After full inhalation, again close the right nostril with your right thumb , open your index finger and  exhale through the left nostril.
                                   
                                  In essence, you are breathing in through one nostril and breathing out through the other nostril.
                                   
                                  And then the reverse flow.
                                   
                                  Deep inhalation, deep full exhalations, (like in KapilBhatti, except that here there is no stomach movement and only one nostril used at a time) 
                                   
                                  You will find the breathing is smooth through one nostril, through the other it is not.
                                   
                                  It is not clear a nasal passage, at all.
                                   
                                  This imbalance is the indication of the imbalance in the organism.
                                   
                                  Keep going, irrespective of the blocked nasal passage, force the breath through the blacked nasal.
                                   
                                  And if you are getting breathless,(because of having to force through the blocked passage),............... stop, .........breathe normally through both nostrils.
                                   
                                   
                                  And then back to A-V.
                                   
                                  Keep doing, again 15-20 per min, going uptil 60 per min, in 2-3 weeks time.
                                   
                                  Again, 2-3 mins per day of Avlong-Velong, going up to 10 mins in 2-3 weeks time.
                                   
                                  In 2-3 weeks time, you will notice perfect balance in the breathing through either nasal passage.
                                   
                                  The organism is on it's way to balance.
                                   
                                   
                                  So spine straight, eyes closed, deep breathing in-out through alternate nostrils.
                                   
                                  After, you have finished A-V for the day, once again, remain in observation, eyes closed.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Just this, 10 mins of KapilBhatti (continuously) and 10 mins of Avlong-Velong (continuously).
                                   
                                  If you are doing 5 mins of each continuously in 2-3 weeks time, you are doing great.
                                   
                                   
                                  A-V can be done, at any time through out the day.
                                   
                                  Waiting for someone at the bus stand, traveling in a train/flight, sensing a pending stressful situation coming up (aka, going in for a meeting with long term impacts on one's life), ..............
                                   
                                  ..............an impending panic attack (after 15 years, you know the tell-tale signs of an attack coming up, isn't it),..
                                   
                                  ..just sit somewhere (If cross legged/Lotus position seems inappropriate for you in a public place, sit on a chair as you normally do, just ensure the spine is straight), and do A-V.
                                   
                                  Early morning when you are doing the A-V, keep your eyes closed.
                                   
                                  If you are doing A-V at any other time or at a public place and you feel uncomfortable (or even anxious, fearful) to close your eyes, do A-V with eyes open.
                                   
                                  Reading a book, reading emails, seeing TV, do A-V.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Brhami Pranayam Or Ohm Pranayam
                                   
                                  At dawn/early morning,......... suggest finish of KapilBatti and A-V, with Brhami Pranayam.
                                   
                                  Same sitting position, eyes closed, spine straight, block both your ears with each your thumbs.
                                   
                                  Push the thumb in, so that hearing is effectively blocked.(But please do not pierce through your ear drums)
                                   
                                  The index fingers of both hands rest on the forehead, the other 3 fingers lightly rest on the closed eyelids.
                                   
                                  Take a deep breath, feeling it going it down to the hara region (below the belly button)
                                   
                                  And while exhaling,..... chant Ohm
                                   
                                  The sound Ohm is actually 3 syllables.
                                   
                                  Aaa-----Ouuuu-------------Mmmmmmm.
                                   
                                  The Mmmmm syllable should be as much prolonged as possible, relative to the other two syllable.
                                   
                                  For this, lightly clench your teeth and touch the tongue to your upper palette.
                                   
                                  The sound will automatically become a humming Mmmmmmmmm.
                                   
                                  So no seeing, no hearing, just the internal resonance of the Mmmmmmmmm, going on.
                                   
                                  After exhalation is over, the huming Mmmmmmmm will also be over.
                                   
                                  The Silence.
                                   
                                  Deeply inhale and the next Ohm.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  When you are doing the Ohm(s), you will find after some time, that you have started pressing your closed eye-lids.
                                   
                                  Release the pressue, ..........the finger must lightly rest on the closed eye-lids.
                                   
                                   
                                  Do 11, 21 or 101 Ohms.
                                   
                                   
                                  And then drop your body on the grass or carpet or the floor.(use a bed-cover/blanket if bare floor)
                                   
                                   
                                  Spread your legs and your hands, and completely loosen your entire body, while lying on your back.
                                   
                                   
                                  Eyes closed, breath evenly and give up everything.
                                   
                                  Your body, your mind, your panics, your issues, ..............give up "Anna".
                                   
                                  Become like a corpse (Shav)
                                   
                                  That is why this is called Shavasan.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Remain like this, for whatever time you feel like.
                                   
                                  And then get up and get back to tackling the world.:-)
                                   
                                   
                                  This entire process, KapilBhatti+A-V+Ohm+Shavasan, is not more than 35-40 mins.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Now your medications.
                                   
                                  Continue with whatever dosage you have been taking.
                                   
                                  However I think, rather than routine, its become SOS, isn't it?
                                   
                                  That is, when you notice those subtle signs, you reach for the chemicals.
                                   
                                  While doing the Pranayams, if you notice the need to take the chemical, by all means do so.
                                   
                                  So don't alter anything, just because some email address has shown you how to do Pranayam:-)
                                   
                                   
                                  Just notice, over a period of 4 weeks of Pranayams, the increasing gaps in the appearing of those subtle signs indicating an onset of a panic attack.
                                   
                                  And notice the occasion, when sensing the subtle signs, you went into Pranayam, rather than reaching for the chemical.
                                   
                                  Now whether this happens in 4 weeks time, or 4 months time, don't be worried.
                                   
                                  After all, a habit of 15 years is being de-habitated.
                                   
                                  And also don't get disheartened that you have been doing Pranayams for such a long time and here Anna again succumbed to the chemical.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  It WILL happen.
                                   
                                  Have fun and if you want to seek any clarifications, feel free to scream.
                                   
                                  And if you feel like, share your experience, after doing the Pranayams say for 7 days.
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                    
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                • Jason Fishman
                                  Great stuff San! I have the sheet I hand out to my meditation class that has these steps almost exactly like you ve explained them here, with some minor
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 20, 2004
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                                    Great stuff San!
                                     
                                    I have the sheet I hand out to my meditation class that has these steps almost exactly like you've explained them here, with some minor differences.
                                     
                                    I don't have labels (like Pranayams), it's just ordered phase 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Six being the completetion of the class. I also don't have a count and in every class someone tends to ask questions like.. How long? How many breathes per minute? and I say things like whatever is comfortable. Usually by the end of each phase people are in tune to a natural rythm and I used to take count which was around 50-60. It's really just a naturally occuring progression. Some find they can't do it at the begining other find it easy, those that stick with it are all pretty much at the same level when done, without much instruction. Not oddly enough, there is an about 10-20 percent drop out rate after the first or second class. "I just don't have the time and or energy for such rituals" are typical responses.
                                     
                                    Peace and Love

                                    sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:05 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                                    Dear Sandeep,
                                    Thank you for your reply.
                                    The purpose of the medication was after a complete and total hysterectomy in l988, I began having really bad panick attacks, and the DX with PTSD,
                                    As a nurse I know I should have only been on it short term, and then weaned off, but none of the military doc's wanted to handle that, and now I still cannot convince somenone to try.Most believe in the profession it is the equivalent of coming off Heroin.
                                    I have got it sometimes to almost 0, but after a few days, you have a sense of you are gong to lose it. It in itself is a nightmare, and I believe God does not want this toxin in my body anymore.
                                    How do I research the methods you suggested?
                                     
                                    ---------
                                     
                                     
                                    Hi Anna,
                                     
                                    Pranayam is one of the components of Yoga, which as mentioned earlier,..... involves breathing.
                                     
                                    There are 5-6 different Pranayams, the basic being KapilBhatti and Avlong-Velong.
                                     
                                    I suspected that the medication that you were taking was to address panic attacks and or depression and KB and A-V is very effective for this.
                                     
                                    Unlike the other components of Yoga, Pranayams do not involve esoteric body postures or contortions.
                                     
                                    And you cannot do them "wrong".:-)
                                     
                                    If what you are doing is "incorrect", the effectiveness is that much reduced.
                                     
                                    That's all.
                                     
                                    The key aspect for doing all Pranayams is in the sitting position and for the the spine to be straight.
                                     
                                    They are to be done preferably at dawn, preferably out in the open, and on an empty stomach, sitting in the Lotus Position.
                                     
                                    If out in the open is not an option, sit within the house with open windows or sit on the balcony.
                                     
                                    Basically where you are able to freely access fresh clean air.
                                     
                                    Empty stomach (both empty bowels and empty of any intake)ensures that breathing will deep.
                                     
                                    The time at dawn, or early morning is the best time to do Pranayams.
                                     
                                    Sitting in the Lotus position automatically ensures the straightened spine.
                                     
                                    The Lotus Position is the cross-legged sitting position, where the heel of one leg rests on the thigh of the other and the vice versa.
                                     
                                    Now if Lotus position is difficult, try it for whatever time possible.
                                     
                                    If impossible, just sit in the normal sitting position with your folded legs resting on the ground, in front of you.
                                     
                                    In Lotus Position, your spine is automatically straight, so you don't have to bother trying to remember to keep your spine straight.
                                     
                                    In the other sitting position, there is a possibility to slouch (after some time), so if you find yourself slouching, just make your spine straight again.
                                     
                                    Doing Pranayama with a slouched spine, does not harm you.
                                     
                                    It just does not benefit you as much as is possible.
                                     
                                    So spine straight, sitting posture, eyes closed, ..............the two Pranayams.
                                     
                                     
                                    KapilBhatti
                                     
                                    Spine straight, sitting posture (Lotus or cross-legged), eyes closed, the back of your hands resting on your knees,... the index finger touching your thumb to form a closed circle.
                                     
                                    KapilBhatti,......... involves the taking in your breath, through both the nostrils, as deeply as possible, (your chest should fill out, you should feel your ribs expanding) and then blowing out the breath again through both the nostrils as forcefully as you can.
                                     
                                    Throw out the whole of the intake breath.
                                     
                                    While you are throwing out the breath, pull your stomach in, as far back as possible.
                                     
                                    So breath in,....... stomach out.
                                     
                                    Breath out...........stomach in.
                                     
                                    Keep doing this, till a natural rhythm is established.
                                     
                                    After this rhythm is established, increase the rapidity.
                                     
                                    So deep breaths going in and out while simultaneously stomach going out and in(reverse direction to the breath).
                                     
                                    Do it slowly in the beginning but there shoud be No gaps between one "breath-in/stomach out-breathout/stomach in",.............and the next set.
                                     
                                    So spine straight, rapid "sets" of this breathing-stomach movements.
                                     
                                    In the attempt to increase the rapidity, don't make your breaths shallow.
                                     
                                    Deep, chest-filling rib-expanding inhalations and then full "snorty" exhalations.
                                     
                                    Your exhalations must be making noises, just like a snorting horse, (if you have ever stood next to a horse)
                                     
                                    Mucus may come out of the nostrils.
                                     
                                    Ignore it or wipe it away, if bothering you.
                                     
                                    And your stomach must be pulled in, as much as far back as possible.
                                     
                                    (For adept practioners, doing Pranayams over years, the shape of the spine is visible to an observer, when the stomach is pulled in.)
                                     
                                     
                                    When the natural rhythm is established, you will find your full upper torso also moving in that rhythm. 
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    In the begining, you will find, after maybe just 60 seconds, you are out of breath.
                                     
                                    Stop and relax.
                                     
                                    Breath as you normally do.
                                     
                                    And then get back to KapilBhatti.
                                     
                                    For the first week, if you are able to do 15-20 KapilBhatti(s) per minute, you are dong fine.
                                     
                                    Finally, maybe within 2-3 weeks, you will doing 45-60 KapilBhatti per minute.
                                     
                                    Again, for the first week, if you can do 2-3 mins of Kapil Bhatti(s), you are doing fine.
                                     
                                    Finally you will doing for 10 mins.
                                     
                                    10 mins of KapilBhatti, at the rate of 60 per minute.
                                     
                                    That's all you have to do, around 600 KapilBhattis over a 10 mins duration, per day.
                                     
                                     
                                    The key is not to strain, not to bother with the minor pains here and there and as soon as you feel you are panting, to stop and take a break.
                                     
                                    Break does not mean getting up from your Lotus position or sitting position.
                                     
                                    Just stop doing KapilBhatti, for few moments.
                                     
                                    And then get back to it. 
                                     
                                    Once you have finished KapilBhatti for the day, ....................for few moments just remain in the sitting position, eyes closed, .......observe whatever is the experience happening in the moment.
                                     
                                    Don't disparage the experience ("been this, done this"), ..........don't invest in the experience.
                                     
                                    Just observe.
                                     
                                    And after some time (whatever, you feel like) proceed to Avlong-Velong.
                                     
                                    If you feel like, you may like to wipe your face with a cloth, clean the nostrils areas.
                                     
                                    If knees/ legs are aching for having sat for 10 mins, .........remain sitting stretch out your legs, ankles together, rotate both your ankles clockwise, and then anti-clockwise.
                                     
                                    Proceed to come back to cross-legged sitting position and start Avlong-Velong.
                                     
                                    Avlong-Velong
                                     
                                    Same sitting position, spine straight, eyes closed.
                                    Here the right hand will be used, so hands not resting on the knees.
                                     
                                    With the thumb of your right hand, close your right nostril and inhale deeply through your left nostril.
                                     
                                    With the index finger of the right hand, close the left nostril, open thumb and exhale through the right nostril.
                                     
                                    After full exhalation, breathe in through the right nostril(the left  nostril still remains closed with the index finger).
                                    After full inhalation, again close the right nostril with your right thumb , open your index finger and  exhale through the left nostril.
                                     
                                    In essence, you are breathing in through one nostril and breathing out through the other nostril.
                                     
                                    And then the reverse flow.
                                     
                                    Deep inhalation, deep full exhalations, (like in KapilBhatti, except that here there is no stomach movement and only one nostril used at a time) 
                                     
                                    You will find the breathing is smooth through one nostril, through the other it is not.
                                     
                                    It is not clear a nasal passage, at all.
                                     
                                    This imbalance is the indication of the imbalance in the organism.
                                     
                                    Keep going, irrespective of the blocked nasal passage, force the breath through the blacked nasal.
                                     
                                    And if you are getting breathless,(because of having to force through the blocked passage),............... stop, .........breathe normally through both nostrils.
                                     
                                     
                                    And then back to A-V.
                                     
                                    Keep doing, again 15-20 per min, going uptil 60 per min, in 2-3 weeks time.
                                     
                                    Again, 2-3 mins per day of Avlong-Velong, going up to 10 mins in 2-3 weeks time.
                                     
                                    In 2-3 weeks time, you will notice perfect balance in the breathing through either nasal passage.
                                     
                                    The organism is on it's way to balance.
                                     
                                     
                                    So spine straight, eyes closed, deep breathing in-out through alternate nostrils.
                                     
                                    After, you have finished A-V for the day, once again, remain in observation, eyes closed.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Just this, 10 mins of KapilBhatti (continuously) and 10 mins of Avlong-Velong (continuously).
                                     
                                    If you are doing 5 mins of each continuously in 2-3 weeks time, you are doing great.
                                     
                                     
                                    A-V can be done, at any time through out the day.
                                     
                                    Waiting for someone at the bus stand, traveling in a train/flight, sensing a pending stressful situation coming up (aka, going in for a meeting with long term impacts on one's life), ..............
                                     
                                    ..............an impending panic attack (after 15 years, you know the tell-tale signs of an attack coming up, isn't it),..
                                     
                                    ..just sit somewhere (If cross legged/Lotus position seems inappropriate for you in a public place, sit on a chair as you normally do, just ensure the spine is straight), and do A-V.
                                     
                                    Early morning when you are doing the A-V, keep your eyes closed.
                                     
                                    If you are doing A-V at any other time or at a public place and you feel uncomfortable (or even anxious, fearful) to close your eyes, do A-V with eyes open.
                                     
                                    Reading a book, reading emails, seeing TV, do A-V.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Brhami Pranayam Or Ohm Pranayam
                                     
                                    At dawn/early morning,......... suggest finish of KapilBatti and A-V, with Brhami Pranayam.
                                     
                                    Same sitting position, eyes closed, spine straight, block both your ears with each your thumbs.
                                     
                                    Push the thumb in, so that hearing is effectively blocked.(But please do not pierce through your ear drums)
                                     
                                    The index fingers of both hands rest on the forehead, the other 3 fingers lightly rest on the closed eyelids.
                                     
                                    Take a deep breath, feeling it going it down to the hara region (below the belly button)
                                     
                                    And while exhaling,..... chant Ohm
                                     
                                    The sound Ohm is actually 3 syllables.
                                     
                                    Aaa-----Ouuuu-------------Mmmmmmm.
                                     
                                    The Mmmmm syllable should be as much prolonged as possible, relative to the other two syllable.
                                     
                                    For this, lightly clench your teeth and touch the tongue to your upper palette.
                                     
                                    The sound will automatically become a humming Mmmmmmmmm.
                                     
                                    So no seeing, no hearing, just the internal resonance of the Mmmmmmmmm, going on.
                                     
                                    After exhalation is over, the huming Mmmmmmmm will also be over.
                                     
                                    The Silence.
                                     
                                    Deeply inhale and the next Ohm.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    When you are doing the Ohm(s), you will find after some time, that you have started pressing your closed eye-lids.
                                     
                                    Release the pressue, ..........the finger must lightly rest on the closed eye-lids.
                                     
                                     
                                    Do 11, 21 or 101 Ohms.
                                     
                                     
                                    And then drop your body on the grass or carpet or the floor.(use a bed-cover/blanket if bare floor)
                                     
                                     
                                    Spread your legs and your hands, and completely loosen your entire body, while lying on your back.
                                     
                                     
                                    Eyes closed, breath evenly and give up everything.
                                     
                                    Your body, your mind, your panics, your issues, ..............give up "Anna".
                                     
                                    Become like a corpse (Shav)
                                     
                                    That is why this is called Shavasan.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Remain like this, for whatever time you feel like.
                                     
                                    And then get up and get back to tackling the world.:-)
                                     
                                     
                                    This entire process, KapilBhatti+A-V+Ohm+Shavasan, is not more than 35-40 mins.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Now your medications.
                                     
                                    Continue with whatever dosage you have been taking.
                                     
                                    However I think, rather than routine, its become SOS, isn't it?
                                     
                                    That is, when you notice those subtle signs, you reach for the chemicals.
                                     
                                    While doing the Pranayams, if you notice the need to take the chemical, by all means do so.
                                     
                                    So don't alter anything, just because some email address has shown you how to do Pranayam:-)
                                     
                                     
                                    Just notice, over a period of 4 weeks of Pranayams, the increasing gaps in the appearing of those subtle signs indicating an onset of a panic attack.
                                     
                                    And notice the occasion, when sensing the subtle signs, you went into Pranayam, rather than reaching for the chemical.
                                     
                                    Now whether this happens in 4 weeks time, or 4 months time, don't be worried.
                                     
                                    After all, a habit of 15 years is being de-habitated.
                                     
                                    And also don't get disheartened that you have been doing Pranayams for such a long time and here Anna again succumbed to the chemical.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    It WILL happen.
                                     
                                    Have fun and if you want to seek any clarifications, feel free to scream.
                                     
                                    And if you feel like, share your experience, after doing the Pranayams say for 7 days.
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                      
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     


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                                  • tom flou
                                    ... This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your mentation. The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need to investigate its
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 20, 2004
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                                      >  Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
                                      >  From:
                                      Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@...>
                                      Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                                      > Tom,
                                      > Thank you for
                                      great information.
                                      > This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this
                                      toxin is possibley irreversible.
                                       
                                      This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your mentation.
                                      The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need to investigate its plausibility.
                                      Promoting it into a belief is a problem, then you are hooked on it,
                                      - until you don't believe it anymore.
                                      (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the thoughts he think
                                      you need to support your current belief-system ;-)
                                      I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.
                                      I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for epilepsy.
                                      If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an epileptic seizure,
                                      but he does not miss the drug in any other way - rather, he feels less tired without it.
                                      But when you discontinue the drug, your underlying anxiety emerges again.
                                      This can be mistaken for withdrawal symptoms.
                                      In fact this is what you choose to believe,
                                      according to your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)
                                       
                                      >I am
                                      working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought",
                                       
                                      All this hard work does nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
                                      It cannot be 'done'.
                                      The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts :-)
                                      Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
                                      Write them down as they appear.
                                      Then, ask yourself, one by one, if you can be really certain, they are true.
                                      If not, discard them. (Once you realize they are lies, you don´t want them anyway)
                                      It takes some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they emerge again.
                                      This part is beyond your control.
                                       
                                      >and to just tell the negative stuff that starts
                                      swirling around in our minds, to go away.
                                      >It has no true power over
                                      us.  We are protected all the time, even unaware,
                                      >and even when we
                                      do not consciosly asks.
                                       
                                      Yes! In reality there are no problems. Problems are caused by the mind,
                                      suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose to believe in.
                                       
                                      >Peace and Agape,
                                      >Anna

                                      You too!
                                      Tom
                                       
                                       
                                    • medit8ionsociety
                                      ... possibley irreversible. ... mentation. ... he think ... Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other living people, horses that talk,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 20, 2004
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
                                        <tom@f...> wrote:
                                        > > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
                                        > > From: Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
                                        > > Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation
                                        >
                                        > > Tom,
                                        > > Thank you for great information.
                                        > > This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is
                                        possibley irreversible.
                                        >
                                        > This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your
                                        mentation.
                                        > The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need to investigate
                                        > its plausibility.
                                        > Promoting it into a belief is a problem, then you are hooked on it,
                                        > - until you don't believe it anymore.
                                        > (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the thoughts
                                        he think
                                        > you need to support your current belief-system ;-)
                                        > I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.

                                        Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other
                                        living people, horses that talk, and other similar things, but it is a
                                        FACT that there is a brutal physical, emotional, and mental result if
                                        you are not weaned off of a benzodiazepine medication medically
                                        appropriately. You will have "REAL" problems that may take weeks or
                                        even months to come on, but when they do, and they will, whether you
                                        "believe" it or not, ... you'll then understand why many doctors Anna
                                        has seen refuse to even get involved with the process. But, there are
                                        physicians who can help getting off of these meds. It's a matter of
                                        finding them.

                                        > I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for epilepsy.
                                        > If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an epileptic
                                        seizure,
                                        > but he does not miss the drug in any other way - rather, he feels
                                        less tired without it.
                                        > But when you discontinue the drug, your underlying anxiety emerges
                                        again.
                                        > This can be mistaken for withdrawal symptoms.

                                        No - you WILL experience withdrawal symptoms. And they are heavy-duty
                                        and can be life threatening.

                                        > In fact this is what you choose to believe,
                                        > according to your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)

                                        No, all of medical knowledge will point to this as reality - not a
                                        "belief system". Thinking they are just a choice that can be ignored
                                        is a potentially dangerous "self-proclaimed belief-system".
                                        >
                                        > >I am working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought",
                                        >
                                        > All this hard work does nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
                                        > It cannot be 'done'.

                                        Well, there are dozens of studies that demonstrate that "being
                                        surpremely happy in thought" is very much more beneficial to healing,
                                        organ-system function, mood, and so on, than is just letting your
                                        thoughts run wild and/or stay in negativity.

                                        > The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts :-)
                                        > Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
                                        > Write them down as they appear.
                                        > Then, ask yourself, one by one, if you can be really certain, they
                                        are true.
                                        > If not, discard them. (Once you realize they are lies, you don´t
                                        want them anyway)
                                        > It takes some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they
                                        emerge again.
                                        > This part is beyond your control.
                                        >
                                        > >and to just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in
                                        our minds, to go away.
                                        > >It has no true power over us. We are protected all the time, even
                                        unaware,
                                        > >and even when we do not consciosly asks.
                                        >
                                        > Yes! In reality there are no problems.

                                        That's quite a judgement call, and I think that this statement itself
                                        is leaning towards magical thinking, and being in denial, and a whole
                                        bunch of other "problems".

                                        > Problems are caused by the mind,

                                        and the body, and other people, and stress, and other things that on
                                        our dualistic reality extistence level are "real".

                                        > suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose to
                                        believe in.

                                        Like much of what you have shared here. I'm sure you have good
                                        intentions, but medically I think you mistaken, and it would be a
                                        disaster to follow the path you are pointing to.
                                        >
                                        > >Peace and Agape,
                                        > >Anna
                                        >
                                        > You too!
                                        > Tom

                                        Peace and blessings,
                                        Bob
                                      • Andy
                                        ... hi anna. my name is andy. i basically lurk here, from time to time. just happened to stop by today and noticed this thread. Drugs! did someone say
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 20, 2004
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
                                          > <tom@f...> wrote:
                                          > > > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
                                          > > > From: Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
                                          > > > Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation

                                          hi anna. my name is andy. i basically lurk here, from time to
                                          time. just happened to stop by today and noticed this thread.
                                          Drugs! did someone say drugs! Yeahhhhh! :-)))))

                                          apparently there is some discussion as to whether you should be
                                          weaning yourself off Clonazepam or stopping cold turkey.

                                          i must agree with bob. do NOT stop cold turkey. Slowly come off the
                                          stuff. if you still have any doubts, consult a pharmacist.

                                          i was on a different benzodiazepine drug, Ativan (Lorazepam), 1 mg -
                                          a mild dose - for only two weeks (two doses per day). i was not
                                          taking it for anxiety, however. i was using it post chemotherapy
                                          because it was the only drug that quelled my nausea. apparently the
                                          drug works on the receptor cells in the stomach, moderating any upset.

                                          unaware, i stopped taking it cold turkey and experienced both strange
                                          emotional shifts (they were mild but noticeable) and, much more
                                          apparent: i had graphic and upsetting nightmares the first night i
                                          stopped taking my evening dose! just one night day and night of this
                                          silliness and i called a psychologist who explained that it is really
                                          NECESSARY to withdraw slowly from ALL of the benzodiazephines (for
                                          the reasons bob mentioned in his post).

                                          for the next three days i reduced by daily dose by 1/3, and then i
                                          took another three days to cut down another 1/3. so, when i finally
                                          stopped, after six days, i was only taking 1/3 mg twice daily.
                                          stopping in this manner i noticed no usual emotional effects nor did
                                          i experience any problems with my sleep.

                                          i hope the above helps.

                                          p.s. if you feel drawn to meditation, if it is something that appeals
                                          to your "nature," you may discover that by watching the thoughts come
                                          and go, come and go, a realization arises that you, the watcher, are
                                          not the thoughts: you are simply the recepient of them. Helpless you
                                          are to select particular thoughts, and impotent you will be to stop
                                          the thoughts, but safe, nonetheless from them. you may experience,
                                          at some point, a sense of invulnerability from ALL thought and
                                          possibly an entire cessation of the anxiety. good luck!
                                        • Jason Fishman
                                          Hi Bob, As with dependencies in general, there is a continual cause and effect idealism about these dependencies. Not that this post will help Anna or any
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 21, 2004
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                                            Hi Bob,
                                             
                                            As with dependencies in general, there is a continual cause and effect idealism about these dependencies. Not that this post will help Anna or any other person that has a habitual drug use need. It's just that the need is paramount to the issue it's trying to address. No one can address those issue like Anna or any other dependent person can, thats the crux of what I see Tom saying here. Not that Anna should dump the drug because he believes something about it, but that Anna should take a gander into the dependence she places on the drug and find out what value weening off the drug might provide for her.
                                             
                                            Simply put, the anxiety seemed to spur the need for the drug, now they are interdependent, which the way out of interdependency is to tackle the problem or perceptual problems that provide us the use of the drug. When broken down, there is very little truth to drug using beyond the desire to not suffer, or to stay alive, or to enjoy our aliveness, as well as a plethera of other assorted goodies we like to use to make things better, funner or more useful. This boils down to mearly tackling the perceptual-ness of the need, do I want to live a life without anxiety? if yes, then I do so by tackling it with or without the use of a dependency like a drug. Should I think that anxiety won't pop up again, probably not, but when it does will I be better equipt to manage it? And as I do so, become better able to manage it, as that progresses, is anxiety really an issue for me anymore?
                                             
                                            So Anna, no one here is an authority as to how weening you from the drug might affect you. As Bob said most doc's might be afraid to remove patients from drug dependencies since it affects people in all sorts of ways, or a doc might hook a patient into another drug. Best for you to make those desicions, since the power is in your hands, which might jsut cause a whole 'nother set of anxieties. The key here is what your willing to do, as those here can only offer up from thier experiences, you must pull from yours.
                                             
                                            Best of luck!
                                             
                                            Peace and Love

                                            medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
                                            <tom@f...> wrote:
                                            > >  Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
                                            > >  From: Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
                                            > >  Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation
                                            >
                                            > > Tom,
                                            > > Thank you for great information.
                                            > > This is what concerns me, I believe 15 years of this toxin is
                                            possibley irreversible.
                                            >
                                            > This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your
                                            mentation.
                                            > The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need to investigate
                                            > its plausibility.
                                            > Promoting it into a belief is a problem, then you are hooked on it,
                                            > - until you don't believe it anymore.
                                            > (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the thoughts
                                            he think
                                            > you need to support your current belief-system ;-)
                                            > I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.

                                            Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other
                                            living people, horses that talk, and other similar things, but it is a
                                            FACT that there is a brutal physical, emotional, and mental result if
                                            you are not weaned off of a benzodiazepine medication medically
                                            appropriately. You will have "REAL" problems that may take weeks or
                                            even months to come on, but when they do, and they will, whether you
                                            "believe" it or not, ... you'll then understand why many doctors Anna
                                            has seen refuse to even get involved with the process. But, there are
                                            physicians who can help getting off of these meds. It's a matter of
                                            finding them.

                                            > I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for epilepsy.
                                            > If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an epileptic
                                            seizure,
                                            > but he does not miss the drug in any other way - rather, he feels
                                            less tired without it.
                                            > But when you discontinue the drug, your underlying anxiety emerges
                                            again.
                                            > This can be mistaken for withdrawal symptoms.

                                            No - you WILL experience withdrawal symptoms. And they are heavy-duty
                                            and can be life threatening.

                                            > In fact this is what you choose to believe,
                                            > according to your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)

                                            No, all of medical knowledge will point to this as reality - not a
                                            "belief system". Thinking they are just a choice that can be ignored
                                            is a potentially dangerous "self-proclaimed belief-system".

                                            > >I am working very hard at "being surpremely happy in thought",

                                            > All this hard work does nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
                                            > It cannot be 'done'.

                                            Well, there are dozens of studies that demonstrate that "being
                                            surpremely happy in thought" is very much more beneficial to healing,
                                            organ-system function, mood, and so on, than is just letting your
                                            thoughts run wild and/or stay in negativity.

                                            > The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts :-)
                                            > Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
                                            > Write them down as they appear.
                                            > Then, ask yourself, one by one, if you can be really certain, they
                                            are true.
                                            > If not, discard them. (Once you realize they are lies, you don�t
                                            want them anyway)
                                            > It takes some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they
                                            emerge again.
                                            > This part is beyond your control.

                                            > >and to just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in
                                            our minds, to go away.
                                            > >It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the time, even
                                            unaware,
                                            > >and even when we do not consciosly asks.
                                            >
                                            > Yes! In reality there are no problems.

                                            That's quite a judgement call, and I think that this statement itself
                                            is leaning towards magical thinking, and being in denial, and a whole
                                            bunch of other "problems".

                                            > Problems are caused by the mind,

                                            and the body, and other people, and stress, and other things that on
                                            our dualistic reality extistence level are "real".

                                            > suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose to
                                            believe in.

                                            Like much of what you have shared here. I'm sure you have good
                                            intentions, but medically I think you mistaken, and it would be a
                                            disaster to follow the path you are pointing to.

                                            > >Peace and Agape,
                                            > >Anna
                                            >
                                            > You too!
                                            > Tom

                                            Peace and blessings,
                                            Bob


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                                          • tom flou
                                            Well, Bob. We seem to be drawing in different directions of the rope with poor Anna stuck in the middle. Sorry, Anna! I think Bob is right. He has
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jun 21, 2004
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                                              Well, Bob. We seem to be drawing in different directions of the rope

                                              with poor Anna stuck in the middle.    Sorry, Anna!

                                              I think Bob is right. He has contrasted my optimistic view of the matter with the opposite.

                                              Bob has, in my opinion described a worst scenario picture.

                                              I agree with Bob that it is important that the drug be terminated slowly

                                              and maybe even with professional help, as I wrote in my first mail to Anna.

                                              This, second mail underneath, was adressing another aspect of the process,

                                              intending to moderate Anna´s concern,

                                              that "15 years of this toxin is possibly irreversible"

                                              With convictions like this, the endeavor to get rid of the drug has a poor start.

                                              The possibility to get off it is definitely there.

                                              And, as Bob says, it may be painful for weeks or even month.

                                              But this has realistically to be seen in relation to maybe another 15 years on the drug.

                                               

                                              Concerning "being supremely happy in thought"

                                              It is certainly beneficial.  I totally agree.

                                              But how to get there?

                                              You can try to force yourself to think only positive thoughts.

                                              But you will never succeed, only be more miserable.

                                              The happy thoughts come by themselves, once you make room for them,

                                              by not identifying with all the negative rubbish that is causing your misery

                                              by constantly occupying your attention.

                                              Of cause, once you get there, you are to be congratulated.

                                               

                                              For the last part I need to define my words:

                                              When I say problems,  I am talking about the way the mind 

                                              interprets the circumstances of our lives.

                                              With this definition there are no problems in the physical world.

                                              There can be - even severe - life situations to deal with.

                                              But these are not problems, they are challenges.

                                              So Anna is facing the challenge of getting off her drugs.

                                              This can be difficult, I agree.

                                              It can be exactly as difficult as Bob describes it - in a few cases.

                                              It can even prove impossible.

                                              But if you can reduce the problems to a minimum.

                                              That is, reduce/remove your negative expectations and uninvestigated false ideas.

                                              Then only the naked challenge is left.

                                              And that may prove surprisingly smaller than it initially looked,

                                              with all the mind created problems entangling it.

                                              In many cases it may not even be there ;-) 

                                               

                                              Peace and blessings to you too, Bob. 

                                               

                                              And to you, Anna!

                                               

                                              Tom

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                                Message: 3
                                                 Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:29:22 -0000
                                                 From: medit8ionsociety
                                              Subject: Re: About Drugs and Delusional Advise/T and A

                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tom flou"
                                              <tom@f...> wrote:

                                              > >  Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
                                              > >  From:
                                              Anna Cardinal <kalinitkadrimos@y...>
                                              > > 
                                              Subject: Re: About Drugs and Meditation
                                              >
                                              > > Tom,
                                              > >
                                              Thank you for great information.
                                              > > This is what concerns me, I
                                              believe 15 years of this toxin is
                                              possibley irreversible.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              This is a very natural worry that you can notice when it enters your
                                              mentation.
                                              > The thought itself is not unreasonable, but you need
                                              to investigate
                                              > its plausibility.
                                              > Promoting it into a belief is a
                                              problem, then you are hooked on it,
                                              > - until you don't believe it
                                              anymore.
                                              > (The little man I talked about, keeps sending upp all the
                                              thoughts
                                              he think
                                              > you need to support your current belief-system
                                              ;-)
                                              > I, for one, do not believe it is a fact.

                                              Well, one can believe that there is no moon in the sky, no other
                                              living people, horses that talk, and other similar things, but it is a
                                              FACT that there is a brutal physical, emotional, and mental result if
                                              you are not weaned off of a benzodiazepine medication medically
                                              appropriately. You will have "REAL" problems that may take weeks or
                                              even months to come on, but when they do, and they will, whether you
                                              "believe" it or not, ... you'll then understand why many doctors Anna
                                              has seen refuse to even get involved with the process. But, there are
                                              physicians who can help getting off of these meds. It's a matter of
                                              finding them.

                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               

                                              > I have a friend who for many years has taken Clonazepam for
                                              epilepsy.
                                              > If he forgets to take it, he is at risk of getting an
                                              epileptic
                                              seizure,
                                              > but he does not miss the drug in any other way -
                                              rather, he feels
                                              less tired without it.
                                              > But when you discontinue the
                                              drug, your underlying anxiety emerges
                                              again.
                                              > This can be mistaken
                                              for withdrawal symptoms.

                                              No - you WILL experience withdrawal symptoms. And they are heavy-duty
                                              and can be life threatening.
                                               
                                               

                                              > In fact this is what you choose to believe,
                                              > according to
                                              your self-proclaimed belief-system ;-)

                                              No, all of medical knowledge will point to this as reality - not a
                                              "belief system". Thinking they are just a choice that can be ignored
                                              is a potentially dangerous "self-proclaimed belief-system".

                                              > >I am working very hard at "being
                                              surpremely happy in thought",

                                              > All this hard work does
                                              nothing but draining your energy, Anna.
                                              > It cannot be
                                              'done'.

                                              Well, there are dozens of studies that demonstrate that  "being
                                              surpremely happy in thought" is very much more beneficial to healing,
                                              organ-system function, mood, and so on, than is just letting your
                                              thoughts run wild and/or stay in negativity.

                                              > The happiest you can get, is when you let go of all thoughts
                                              :-)
                                              > Start with investigating the truth-value of all emerging thoughts.
                                              > Write them down as they appear.
                                              > Then, ask yourself, one by one,
                                              if you can be really certain, they
                                              are true.
                                              > If not, discard them.
                                              (Once you realize they are lies, you don´t
                                              want them anyway)
                                              > It takes
                                              some doing and repetition. Don't blame yourself, if they
                                              emerge again.
                                              > This part is beyond your control.

                                              > >and to
                                              just tell the negative stuff that starts swirling around in
                                              our minds, to go away.
                                              > >It has no true power over us.  We are protected all the
                                              time, even
                                              unaware,
                                              > >and even when we do not consciosly
                                              asks.
                                              >
                                              > Yes! In reality there are no
                                              problems.
                                               
                                              That's quite a judgement call, and I think that this statement itself
                                              is leaning towards magical thinking, and being in denial, and a whole
                                              bunch of other "problems".

                                              > Problems are caused by the
                                              mind,

                                              and the body, and other people, and stress, and other things that on
                                              our dualistic reality extistence level are "real".
                                               

                                              > suggesting uninvestigated, unverified hypothesis, we chose
                                              to
                                              believe in.

                                              Like much of what you have shared here. I'm sure you have good
                                              intentions, but medically I think you mistaken, and it would be a
                                              disaster to follow the path you are pointing to.
                                               

                                              > >Peace and Agape,
                                              > >Anna
                                              >
                                              >
                                              You too!
                                              > Tom

                                              Peace and blessings,
                                              Bob

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