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[Meditation Society of America] Re: lucid dreaming, pavlani's question and yoga

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  • Nina
    ... Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because yielding can be misinterpreted to be giving way , which it is not. It is, rather, a meeting in balance ,
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "melodyande"
      <melodyande@c...> wrote:
      > >It is possible to understand the Pallavi discussion as
      > regards yield, push, reach, and pull. One might say that
      > one person was pushing, but another person might feel it
      > as yielding. Who can say for sure?<
      >
      >
      > Hi Nina,
      >
      > My interest doesn't really lie in "for sures".
      >
      > I tend to see threads of concurrent discussions in
      > terms of how they might be woven together.
      >
      > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
      > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
      >
      >
      > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
      > could be said to have effected a kind of
      > 'gravitational pull',
      >
      > what would a yielding response have
      > looked like, in the context of yoga?

      Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
      can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
      not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
      requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
      and to meet it equally.

      Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
      onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
      linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
      of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
      speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
      'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
      in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.

      In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
      anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
      and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
      pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.

      > And to what extent does concerns over
      > future rewards or consequences have
      > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
      > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
      >
      > rather than on the gravitational effect
      > of the way that presentation impacted
      > our own 'body'?
      >
      > How could the experience of having
      > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
      > which can be manipulated or pushed
      > or pulled,
      >
      > alter the mind's discernment?
      >
      > These are the types of questions that
      > interest me, in the context of earlier
      > insights and discussions.

      Well then, please share your insights into your
      questions. I'd love to read them.

      Nina
    • Melody
      ... So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic, there seems to need to be a balance between knowing the laws that pertain [to individual
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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        > >
        > > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
        > > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
        > >
        > >
        > > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
        > > could be said to have effected a kind of
        > > 'gravitational pull',
        > >
        > > what would a yielding response have
        > > looked like, in the context of yoga?
        >
        > Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
        > can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
        > not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
        > requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
        > and to meet it equally.
        >
        > Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
        > onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
        > linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
        > of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
        > speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
        > 'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
        > in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.



        So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic,

        there seems to need to be a balance between
        knowing the 'laws' that pertain [to individual
        bodies]....whether 'natural', or man-made,


        as well as a sense of 'flow' [where the sense of
        individuality, and all the accompanying past future
        associations, are suspended].


        Is that too simplistic an observation?




        > In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
        > anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
        > and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
        > pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.


        Like finding the centering point on a set of scales?




        >
        > > And to what extent does concerns over
        > > future rewards or consequences have
        > > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
        > > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
        > >
        > > rather than on the gravitational effect
        > > of the way that presentation impacted
        > > our own 'body'?
        > >
        > > How could the experience of having
        > > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
        > > which can be manipulated or pushed
        > > or pulled,
        > >
        > > alter the mind's discernment?
        > >
        > > These are the types of questions that
        > > interest me, in the context of earlier
        > > insights and discussions.
        >
        > Well then, please share your insights into your
        > questions. I'd love to read them.
        >
        > Nina



        My initial thought was that the mind's
        attempts to know or expose the motivation
        behind an [outside] movement affecting
        its course

        appeared to succeed in pulling the body/mind
        off balance.

        (Not saying my perception was "for sure",
        of course.....only revealing what I 'saw'.)

        I was wondering if perhaps there was some
        pointer in your earlier offering , from
        the thread "Focalization-body, a map of consciousness"
        in which you offered Dona Holleman's 'take' on
        embodiment, and the dynamic of body/no-body:


        "To be totally attentive to the body means that you are
        interested in the body and in the movement. 'Interest' in
        Latin, as we said before, means 'to be inside'. It is the
        moment of being inter-ested, being 'inside' the movement
        or the posture as the posture unfolds that makes it complete.
        There is no future reward and no retreating involved, but it
        is only the moment as it is there. So the body is completely
        filled with the mind. The mind fills the body completely
        from the bone structure to the skin structure, while as long
        as there is a future reward the mind is very small within the
        skin and so there is a lot of empty space in the body."


        Maybe it's possible to relate the observation above,
        to that of the work of "yielding".


        Concerning 'yielding' in traffic, it's a balance
        between being 'mindful' of the laws, and going
        beyond mind (or reason, or memory) and getting
        into the 'flow' (no mind.)

        To do one, without the other, you're apt
        to crash the vehicle. :-)


        I see that this now weaves back into Freyja's
        posting of the lyrics of the song "The Rose",
        and to the discussion about discernment.

        And the question arises,

        what place does "discerning the motives of
        others" have in 'Yielding'?

        More specificially,

        is suspicion, in and of itself, an
        indicator that the balance between
        'mind' and 'flow' has been lost?

        It seems, from here, that suspicion,
        reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
        [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

        I'd look forward to hearing your
        take on this.
      • Nina
        ... It is getting familiar , it is understanding the underlying questions, so that it may actually be yielding. A meeting of minds entails that minds be
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
          <melodyande@c...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
          > > > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
          > > > could be said to have effected a kind of
          > > > 'gravitational pull',
          > > >
          > > > what would a yielding response have
          > > > looked like, in the context of yoga?
          > >
          > > Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
          > > can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
          > > not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
          > > requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
          > > and to meet it equally.
          > >
          > > Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
          > > onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
          > > linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
          > > of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
          > > speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
          > > 'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
          > > in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.
          >
          >
          >
          > So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic,
          >
          > there seems to need to be a balance between
          > knowing the 'laws' that pertain [to individual
          > bodies]....whether 'natural', or man-made,
          >
          >
          > as well as a sense of 'flow' [where the sense of
          > individuality, and all the accompanying past future
          > associations, are suspended].
          >
          >
          > Is that too simplistic an observation?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
          > > anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
          > > and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
          > > pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.
          >
          >
          > Like finding the centering point on a set of scales?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > > And to what extent does concerns over
          > > > future rewards or consequences have
          > > > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
          > > > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
          > > >
          > > > rather than on the gravitational effect
          > > > of the way that presentation impacted
          > > > our own 'body'?
          > > >
          > > > How could the experience of having
          > > > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
          > > > which can be manipulated or pushed
          > > > or pulled,
          > > >
          > > > alter the mind's discernment?
          > > >
          > > > These are the types of questions that
          > > > interest me, in the context of earlier
          > > > insights and discussions.
          > >
          > > Well then, please share your insights into your
          > > questions. I'd love to read them.
          > >
          > > Nina
          >
          >
          >
          > My initial thought was that the mind's
          > attempts to know or expose the motivation
          > behind an [outside] movement affecting
          > its course
          >
          > appeared to succeed in pulling the body/mind
          > off balance.
          >
          > (Not saying my perception was "for sure",
          > of course.....only revealing what I 'saw'.)
          >
          > I was wondering if perhaps there was some
          > pointer in your earlier offering , from
          > the thread "Focalization-body, a map of consciousness"
          > in which you offered Dona Holleman's 'take' on
          > embodiment, and the dynamic of body/no-body:
          >
          >
          > "To be totally attentive to the body means that you are
          > interested in the body and in the movement. 'Interest' in
          > Latin, as we said before, means 'to be inside'. It is the
          > moment of being inter-ested, being 'inside' the movement
          > or the posture as the posture unfolds that makes it complete.
          > There is no future reward and no retreating involved, but it
          > is only the moment as it is there. So the body is completely
          > filled with the mind. The mind fills the body completely
          > from the bone structure to the skin structure, while as long
          > as there is a future reward the mind is very small within the
          > skin and so there is a lot of empty space in the body."
          >
          >
          > Maybe it's possible to relate the observation above,
          > to that of the work of "yielding".
          >
          >
          > Concerning 'yielding' in traffic, it's a balance
          > between being 'mindful' of the laws, and going
          > beyond mind (or reason, or memory) and getting
          > into the 'flow' (no mind.)
          >
          > To do one, without the other, you're apt
          > to crash the vehicle. :-)
          >
          >
          > I see that this now weaves back into Freyja's
          > posting of the lyrics of the song "The Rose",
          > and to the discussion about discernment.
          >
          > And the question arises,
          >
          > what place does "discerning the motives of
          > others" have in 'Yielding'?

          It is 'getting familiar', it is understanding
          the underlying questions, so that it may actually
          be yielding. A meeting of minds entails that minds
          be revealed.

          > More specificially,
          >
          > is suspicion, in and of itself, an
          > indicator that the balance between
          > 'mind' and 'flow' has been lost?
          >
          > It seems, from here, that suspicion,
          > reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
          > [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

          Or, think of it this way:

          Suspicion, and its foil, intent, are two
          forces, that meet in the middle.

          Suspicion is part of that flow,
          even as it informs it.

          Intent is part of that flow,
          even as it informs it.

          By the way, Melody, it is all how you
          look at it. What is Suspicion, other than
          Intuition valued differently?

          > I'd look forward to hearing your
          > take on this.

          > It seems, from here, that suspicion,
          > reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
          > [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

          Let's talk about pranayama, which is often translated
          as 'breath control'.

          The overall practice begins not with control,
          but with observation. One lies down, and watches
          the breath, to come to know that place where
          body and breath meet. There is, in the beginning,
          a lot of pushing, pulling, and reaching that may
          be observed, as the diaphragm may be stiff, the
          organs hard, or the lungs and ribs gripping.

          One gradually learns to remove these bodily
          obstacles to the breath, and to allow the breath
          to move more freely through the body. This is
          the dawning of a yielding between body and breath,
          where the body billows out around the breath.

          Control, is inherent, in what James (nisarga)
          terms 'the fourfold breath'. It is always,
          inhale, slight pause, exhale, pause.

          Once this is recognized, control is beside the point.
          What you have done, is 'controlled yourself', gotten
          yourself out of the way, such that the yielding may
          be experienced. So, it is revealed that it is not YOU
          who is controlling the breath, but rather, the BREATH
          that is controlling you. It's yielding relationship
          with the body is the grail of the practice of pranayama,
          and as such, it is the control.

          So, whatever may be said about the Pallavi discussion,
          it may be seen that each of us were contributing our own
          'controls' (as written into our inter-ests, and as
          initially felt as 'obstacles'). It was in getting to
          know these individual 'controls' that resolution (the
          coming into view of a context) grew. However, there was,
          inherent and underlying this whole process, a greater
          control, the 'overcontrol', if you will, which might be
          termed 'the drive towards meeting of minds'... even
          when it didn't apparently look that way.

          Nina
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