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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: lucid dreaming, pavlani's question and yoga

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  • melodyande
    ... regards yield, push, reach, and pull. One might say that one person was pushing, but another person might feel it as yielding. Who can say for sure?
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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      >It is possible to understand the Pallavi discussion as
      regards yield, push, reach, and pull. One might say that
      one person was pushing, but another person might feel it
      as yielding. Who can say for sure?<
       
       
      Hi Nina,
       
      My interest doesn't really lie in "for sures".
       
      I tend to see threads of concurrent discussions in
      terms of how they might be woven together.
       
      In this sense,  the idea earlier expressed
      about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
       
       
      If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
      could be said to have effected a kind of
      'gravitational pull',
       
      what would a yielding response have
      looked like,   in the context of yoga?
       
       
      And to what extent does concerns over
      future rewards or consequences have
      in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
      completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
       
      rather than on the gravitational effect
      of the way that presentation impacted
      our own 'body'?
       
      How could the experience of having
      "no-center", as opposed to having a center
      which can be manipulated or pushed
      or pulled,
       
      alter the mind's discernment?
       
      These are the types of questions that
      interest me, in the context of earlier
      insights and discussions.
       
       
       
       
    • Nina
      ... Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because yielding can be misinterpreted to be giving way , which it is not. It is, rather, a meeting in balance ,
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "melodyande"
        <melodyande@c...> wrote:
        > >It is possible to understand the Pallavi discussion as
        > regards yield, push, reach, and pull. One might say that
        > one person was pushing, but another person might feel it
        > as yielding. Who can say for sure?<
        >
        >
        > Hi Nina,
        >
        > My interest doesn't really lie in "for sures".
        >
        > I tend to see threads of concurrent discussions in
        > terms of how they might be woven together.
        >
        > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
        > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
        >
        >
        > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
        > could be said to have effected a kind of
        > 'gravitational pull',
        >
        > what would a yielding response have
        > looked like, in the context of yoga?

        Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
        can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
        not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
        requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
        and to meet it equally.

        Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
        onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
        linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
        of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
        speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
        'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
        in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.

        In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
        anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
        and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
        pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.

        > And to what extent does concerns over
        > future rewards or consequences have
        > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
        > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
        >
        > rather than on the gravitational effect
        > of the way that presentation impacted
        > our own 'body'?
        >
        > How could the experience of having
        > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
        > which can be manipulated or pushed
        > or pulled,
        >
        > alter the mind's discernment?
        >
        > These are the types of questions that
        > interest me, in the context of earlier
        > insights and discussions.

        Well then, please share your insights into your
        questions. I'd love to read them.

        Nina
      • Melody
        ... So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic, there seems to need to be a balance between knowing the laws that pertain [to individual
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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          > >
          > > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
          > > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
          > >
          > >
          > > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
          > > could be said to have effected a kind of
          > > 'gravitational pull',
          > >
          > > what would a yielding response have
          > > looked like, in the context of yoga?
          >
          > Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
          > can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
          > not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
          > requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
          > and to meet it equally.
          >
          > Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
          > onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
          > linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
          > of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
          > speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
          > 'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
          > in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.



          So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic,

          there seems to need to be a balance between
          knowing the 'laws' that pertain [to individual
          bodies]....whether 'natural', or man-made,


          as well as a sense of 'flow' [where the sense of
          individuality, and all the accompanying past future
          associations, are suspended].


          Is that too simplistic an observation?




          > In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
          > anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
          > and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
          > pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.


          Like finding the centering point on a set of scales?




          >
          > > And to what extent does concerns over
          > > future rewards or consequences have
          > > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
          > > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
          > >
          > > rather than on the gravitational effect
          > > of the way that presentation impacted
          > > our own 'body'?
          > >
          > > How could the experience of having
          > > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
          > > which can be manipulated or pushed
          > > or pulled,
          > >
          > > alter the mind's discernment?
          > >
          > > These are the types of questions that
          > > interest me, in the context of earlier
          > > insights and discussions.
          >
          > Well then, please share your insights into your
          > questions. I'd love to read them.
          >
          > Nina



          My initial thought was that the mind's
          attempts to know or expose the motivation
          behind an [outside] movement affecting
          its course

          appeared to succeed in pulling the body/mind
          off balance.

          (Not saying my perception was "for sure",
          of course.....only revealing what I 'saw'.)

          I was wondering if perhaps there was some
          pointer in your earlier offering , from
          the thread "Focalization-body, a map of consciousness"
          in which you offered Dona Holleman's 'take' on
          embodiment, and the dynamic of body/no-body:


          "To be totally attentive to the body means that you are
          interested in the body and in the movement. 'Interest' in
          Latin, as we said before, means 'to be inside'. It is the
          moment of being inter-ested, being 'inside' the movement
          or the posture as the posture unfolds that makes it complete.
          There is no future reward and no retreating involved, but it
          is only the moment as it is there. So the body is completely
          filled with the mind. The mind fills the body completely
          from the bone structure to the skin structure, while as long
          as there is a future reward the mind is very small within the
          skin and so there is a lot of empty space in the body."


          Maybe it's possible to relate the observation above,
          to that of the work of "yielding".


          Concerning 'yielding' in traffic, it's a balance
          between being 'mindful' of the laws, and going
          beyond mind (or reason, or memory) and getting
          into the 'flow' (no mind.)

          To do one, without the other, you're apt
          to crash the vehicle. :-)


          I see that this now weaves back into Freyja's
          posting of the lyrics of the song "The Rose",
          and to the discussion about discernment.

          And the question arises,

          what place does "discerning the motives of
          others" have in 'Yielding'?

          More specificially,

          is suspicion, in and of itself, an
          indicator that the balance between
          'mind' and 'flow' has been lost?

          It seems, from here, that suspicion,
          reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
          [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

          I'd look forward to hearing your
          take on this.
        • Nina
          ... It is getting familiar , it is understanding the underlying questions, so that it may actually be yielding. A meeting of minds entails that minds be
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
            <melodyande@c...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > In this sense, the idea earlier expressed
            > > > about "yielding to gravity", struck me.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > If Sandeep's response to you about Pavlani
            > > > could be said to have effected a kind of
            > > > 'gravitational pull',
            > > >
            > > > what would a yielding response have
            > > > looked like, in the context of yoga?
            > >
            > > Hi, Melody, this is a good question, because 'yielding'
            > > can be misinterpreted to be 'giving way', which it is
            > > not. It is, rather, a 'meeting in balance', which sometimes
            > > requires getting to know the 'force' that is coming at you,
            > > and to meet it equally.
            > >
            > > Think of what it is to 'yield' to traffic as you merge
            > > onto a highway. You do not blast right in, nor do you
            > > linger back timidly. You must gauge the speed and position
            > > of the vehicles you will be merging with, and adjust your
            > > speed and position accordingly. In traffic, just as in
            > > 'real life', there are certain ways to 'know' who is
            > > in the 'main traffic flow' and who is 'merging'.
            >
            >
            >
            > So, to follow your example of yielding in traffic,
            >
            > there seems to need to be a balance between
            > knowing the 'laws' that pertain [to individual
            > bodies]....whether 'natural', or man-made,
            >
            >
            > as well as a sense of 'flow' [where the sense of
            > individuality, and all the accompanying past future
            > associations, are suspended].
            >
            >
            > Is that too simplistic an observation?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > In yoga, the most widely seen symbol of 'yielding' is
            > > anjali mudra, or prayer position. Left meeting right
            > > and right meeting left. Typically, to find 'equal
            > > pressure', it takes a bit of 'back and forth'.
            >
            >
            > Like finding the centering point on a set of scales?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > > And to what extent does concerns over
            > > > future rewards or consequences have
            > > > in one's ability to have ones inte-rest
            > > > completely on the 'body' of the presentation -
            > > >
            > > > rather than on the gravitational effect
            > > > of the way that presentation impacted
            > > > our own 'body'?
            > > >
            > > > How could the experience of having
            > > > "no-center", as opposed to having a center
            > > > which can be manipulated or pushed
            > > > or pulled,
            > > >
            > > > alter the mind's discernment?
            > > >
            > > > These are the types of questions that
            > > > interest me, in the context of earlier
            > > > insights and discussions.
            > >
            > > Well then, please share your insights into your
            > > questions. I'd love to read them.
            > >
            > > Nina
            >
            >
            >
            > My initial thought was that the mind's
            > attempts to know or expose the motivation
            > behind an [outside] movement affecting
            > its course
            >
            > appeared to succeed in pulling the body/mind
            > off balance.
            >
            > (Not saying my perception was "for sure",
            > of course.....only revealing what I 'saw'.)
            >
            > I was wondering if perhaps there was some
            > pointer in your earlier offering , from
            > the thread "Focalization-body, a map of consciousness"
            > in which you offered Dona Holleman's 'take' on
            > embodiment, and the dynamic of body/no-body:
            >
            >
            > "To be totally attentive to the body means that you are
            > interested in the body and in the movement. 'Interest' in
            > Latin, as we said before, means 'to be inside'. It is the
            > moment of being inter-ested, being 'inside' the movement
            > or the posture as the posture unfolds that makes it complete.
            > There is no future reward and no retreating involved, but it
            > is only the moment as it is there. So the body is completely
            > filled with the mind. The mind fills the body completely
            > from the bone structure to the skin structure, while as long
            > as there is a future reward the mind is very small within the
            > skin and so there is a lot of empty space in the body."
            >
            >
            > Maybe it's possible to relate the observation above,
            > to that of the work of "yielding".
            >
            >
            > Concerning 'yielding' in traffic, it's a balance
            > between being 'mindful' of the laws, and going
            > beyond mind (or reason, or memory) and getting
            > into the 'flow' (no mind.)
            >
            > To do one, without the other, you're apt
            > to crash the vehicle. :-)
            >
            >
            > I see that this now weaves back into Freyja's
            > posting of the lyrics of the song "The Rose",
            > and to the discussion about discernment.
            >
            > And the question arises,
            >
            > what place does "discerning the motives of
            > others" have in 'Yielding'?

            It is 'getting familiar', it is understanding
            the underlying questions, so that it may actually
            be yielding. A meeting of minds entails that minds
            be revealed.

            > More specificially,
            >
            > is suspicion, in and of itself, an
            > indicator that the balance between
            > 'mind' and 'flow' has been lost?
            >
            > It seems, from here, that suspicion,
            > reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
            > [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

            Or, think of it this way:

            Suspicion, and its foil, intent, are two
            forces, that meet in the middle.

            Suspicion is part of that flow,
            even as it informs it.

            Intent is part of that flow,
            even as it informs it.

            By the way, Melody, it is all how you
            look at it. What is Suspicion, other than
            Intuition valued differently?

            > I'd look forward to hearing your
            > take on this.

            > It seems, from here, that suspicion,
            > reveals desire to 'manage' the flow,
            > [or outcome] rather than dissolve into it.

            Let's talk about pranayama, which is often translated
            as 'breath control'.

            The overall practice begins not with control,
            but with observation. One lies down, and watches
            the breath, to come to know that place where
            body and breath meet. There is, in the beginning,
            a lot of pushing, pulling, and reaching that may
            be observed, as the diaphragm may be stiff, the
            organs hard, or the lungs and ribs gripping.

            One gradually learns to remove these bodily
            obstacles to the breath, and to allow the breath
            to move more freely through the body. This is
            the dawning of a yielding between body and breath,
            where the body billows out around the breath.

            Control, is inherent, in what James (nisarga)
            terms 'the fourfold breath'. It is always,
            inhale, slight pause, exhale, pause.

            Once this is recognized, control is beside the point.
            What you have done, is 'controlled yourself', gotten
            yourself out of the way, such that the yielding may
            be experienced. So, it is revealed that it is not YOU
            who is controlling the breath, but rather, the BREATH
            that is controlling you. It's yielding relationship
            with the body is the grail of the practice of pranayama,
            and as such, it is the control.

            So, whatever may be said about the Pallavi discussion,
            it may be seen that each of us were contributing our own
            'controls' (as written into our inter-ests, and as
            initially felt as 'obstacles'). It was in getting to
            know these individual 'controls' that resolution (the
            coming into view of a context) grew. However, there was,
            inherent and underlying this whole process, a greater
            control, the 'overcontrol', if you will, which might be
            termed 'the drive towards meeting of minds'... even
            when it didn't apparently look that way.

            Nina
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