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Re: The Rose

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  • Nina
    ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
      <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
      > > That never learns to dance
      > >
      > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
      > > That never takes the chance
      > >
      > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
      > > Who cannot seem to give
      > >
      > > And the soul, afraid of dying
      > > That never learns to live
      > >
      > > ~from "The Rose"
      > > sung by Bette Midler
      >
      > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
      them
      > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
      >
      > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
      I
      > believe.
      >
      > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
      > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
      suspicious
      > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
      forgive
      > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
      >
      > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
      want
      > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
      > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
      > control freak yourself.
      >
      > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
      > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
      with
      > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
      > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
      >
      > Just some thoughts
      > Love
      > Bobby G.

      There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
      and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
      straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
      may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
      within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
      it is even easier to understand where another person
      is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
      Morgan has described.

      To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
      or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
      Have you checked to see if they can recognize
      straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
      all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
      make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
      your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

      Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
      way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

      You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
      humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
      to yourself. Your choice.

      Nina
    • carolina112900
      ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
        > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        freyjartist@a...
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
        > > > That never learns to dance
        > > >
        > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
        > > > That never takes the chance
        > > >
        > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
        > > > Who cannot seem to give
        > > >
        > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
        > > > That never learns to live
        > > >
        > > > ~from "The Rose"
        > > > sung by Bette Midler
        > >
        > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
        > them
        > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
        > >
        > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
        something
        > I
        > > believe.
        > >
        > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
        > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
        > suspicious
        > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
        > forgive
        > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
        > >
        > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
        > want
        > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
        controlled
        > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
        > > control freak yourself.
        > >
        > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
        with
        > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
        > with
        > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
        dont
        > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
        > >
        > > Just some thoughts
        > > Love
        > > Bobby G.
        >
        > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
        > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
        > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
        > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
        > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
        > it is even easier to understand where another person
        > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
        > Morgan has described.
        >

        Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
        love don't really have anything to do with each
        other.

        Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
        thinking one understands where another is coming from,
        it's just more of a
        way of viewing the world with heels dug
        in even deeper that one can truly understand
        or judge something-anything.

        The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

        The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
        embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
        knows. Unconditional love/compassion
        sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
        truth.

        ~~freyja


        > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
        > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
        > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
        > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
        > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
        > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
        > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
        >
        > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
        > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
        >
        > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
        > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
        > to yourself. Your choice.
        >
        > Nina
      • Nina
        ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
          <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
          > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
          > love don't really have anything to do with each
          > other.

          That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
          'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

          That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
          such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
          relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
          and so, do have some something to do with the other.

          > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
          > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
          > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
          > in even deeper that one can truly understand
          > or judge something-anything.

          Nope.

          > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

          Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
          no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
          from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

          > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
          > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
          > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
          > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
          >
          > ~~freyja
          >
          >
          > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
          > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
          > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
          > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
          > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
          > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
          > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
          > >
          > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
          > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
          > >
          > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
          > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
          > > to yourself. Your choice.
          > >
          > > Nina
        • texasbg2000
          ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
            <murrkis@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
            > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            freyjartist@a...
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
            > > > That never learns to dance
            > > >
            > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
            > > > That never takes the chance
            > > >
            > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
            > > > Who cannot seem to give
            > > >
            > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
            > > > That never learns to live
            > > >
            > > > ~from "The Rose"
            > > > sung by Bette Midler
            > >
            > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
            > them
            > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
            > >
            > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
            something
            > I
            > > believe.
            > >
            > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
            > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
            > suspicious
            > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
            > forgive
            > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
            > >
            > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
            > want
            > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
            controlled
            > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
            > > control freak yourself.
            > >
            > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
            with
            > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
            > with
            > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
            dont
            > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
            > >
            > > Just some thoughts
            > > Love
            > > Bobby G.
            >
            > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
            > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
            > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
            > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
            > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
            > it is even easier to understand where another person
            > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
            > Morgan has described.

            Dear Nina:

            I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
            valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
            manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
            distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

            It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
            that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
            That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
            their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
            My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
            separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
            Shade and the Personna).

            Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

            The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
            admit to, those of the Personna.

            It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
            negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
            events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
            not admit is me.

            Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
            things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
            me.

            So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
            and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
            everything gets complex.

            >
            > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
            > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

            "A person who lies is more
            suspicious
            of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
            forgive
            a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
            to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
            liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
            sure that you could lie?

            > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
            > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
            > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
            > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
            > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

            > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
            > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
            >
            > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
            > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
            > to yourself. Your choice.

            It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
            protective.

            If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
            me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
            increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
            advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

            Love
            bobby g.
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