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Re: The Rose

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  • texasbg2000
    ... Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or con them into giving up their money or freedoms lose something. That one line that one who
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
      wrote:
      >
      > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
      > That never learns to dance
      >
      > It's the dream, afraid of waking
      > That never takes the chance
      >
      > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
      > Who cannot seem to give
      >
      > And the soul, afraid of dying
      > That never learns to live
      >
      > ~from "The Rose"
      > sung by Bette Midler

      Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con' them
      into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.

      That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something I
      believe.

      People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
      trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more suspicious
      of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will forgive
      a cheater sooner than another cheater will.

      The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They want
      to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
      then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
      control freak yourself.

      Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
      giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes with
      participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
      have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.

      Just some thoughts
      Love
      Bobby G.
    • Nina
      ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
        <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
        > > That never learns to dance
        > >
        > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
        > > That never takes the chance
        > >
        > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
        > > Who cannot seem to give
        > >
        > > And the soul, afraid of dying
        > > That never learns to live
        > >
        > > ~from "The Rose"
        > > sung by Bette Midler
        >
        > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
        them
        > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
        >
        > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
        I
        > believe.
        >
        > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
        > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
        suspicious
        > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
        forgive
        > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
        >
        > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
        want
        > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
        > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
        > control freak yourself.
        >
        > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
        > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
        with
        > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
        > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
        >
        > Just some thoughts
        > Love
        > Bobby G.

        There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
        and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
        straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
        may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
        within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
        it is even easier to understand where another person
        is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
        Morgan has described.

        To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
        or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
        Have you checked to see if they can recognize
        straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
        all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
        make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
        your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

        Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
        way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

        You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
        humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
        to yourself. Your choice.

        Nina
      • carolina112900
        ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
          <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
          > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          freyjartist@a...
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
          > > > That never learns to dance
          > > >
          > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
          > > > That never takes the chance
          > > >
          > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
          > > > Who cannot seem to give
          > > >
          > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
          > > > That never learns to live
          > > >
          > > > ~from "The Rose"
          > > > sung by Bette Midler
          > >
          > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
          > them
          > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
          > >
          > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
          something
          > I
          > > believe.
          > >
          > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
          > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
          > suspicious
          > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
          > forgive
          > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
          > >
          > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
          > want
          > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
          controlled
          > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
          > > control freak yourself.
          > >
          > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
          with
          > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
          > with
          > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
          dont
          > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
          > >
          > > Just some thoughts
          > > Love
          > > Bobby G.
          >
          > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
          > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
          > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
          > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
          > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
          > it is even easier to understand where another person
          > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
          > Morgan has described.
          >

          Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
          love don't really have anything to do with each
          other.

          Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
          thinking one understands where another is coming from,
          it's just more of a
          way of viewing the world with heels dug
          in even deeper that one can truly understand
          or judge something-anything.

          The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

          The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
          embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
          knows. Unconditional love/compassion
          sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
          truth.

          ~~freyja


          > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
          > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
          > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
          > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
          > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
          > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
          > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
          >
          > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
          > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
          >
          > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
          > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
          > to yourself. Your choice.
          >
          > Nina
        • Nina
          ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
            <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
            > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
            > love don't really have anything to do with each
            > other.

            That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
            'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

            That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
            such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
            relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
            and so, do have some something to do with the other.

            > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
            > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
            > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
            > in even deeper that one can truly understand
            > or judge something-anything.

            Nope.

            > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

            Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
            no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
            from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

            > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
            > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
            > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
            > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
            >
            > ~~freyja
            >
            >
            > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
            > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
            > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
            > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
            > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
            > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
            > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
            > >
            > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
            > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
            > >
            > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
            > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
            > > to yourself. Your choice.
            > >
            > > Nina
          • texasbg2000
            ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
              > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              freyjartist@a...
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
              > > > That never learns to dance
              > > >
              > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
              > > > That never takes the chance
              > > >
              > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
              > > > Who cannot seem to give
              > > >
              > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
              > > > That never learns to live
              > > >
              > > > ~from "The Rose"
              > > > sung by Bette Midler
              > >
              > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
              > them
              > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
              > >
              > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
              something
              > I
              > > believe.
              > >
              > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
              > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
              > suspicious
              > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
              > forgive
              > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
              > >
              > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
              > want
              > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
              controlled
              > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
              > > control freak yourself.
              > >
              > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
              with
              > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
              > with
              > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
              dont
              > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
              > >
              > > Just some thoughts
              > > Love
              > > Bobby G.
              >
              > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
              > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
              > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
              > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
              > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
              > it is even easier to understand where another person
              > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
              > Morgan has described.

              Dear Nina:

              I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
              valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
              manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
              distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

              It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
              that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
              That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
              their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
              My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
              separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
              Shade and the Personna).

              Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

              The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
              admit to, those of the Personna.

              It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
              negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
              events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
              not admit is me.

              Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
              things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
              me.

              So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
              and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
              everything gets complex.

              >
              > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
              > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

              "A person who lies is more
              suspicious
              of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
              forgive
              a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
              to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
              liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
              sure that you could lie?

              > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
              > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
              > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
              > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
              > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

              > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
              > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
              >
              > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
              > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
              > to yourself. Your choice.

              It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
              protective.

              If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
              me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
              increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
              advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

              Love
              bobby g.
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