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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: The Rose

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  • Bruce Morgen
    freyjartist@aol.com wrote: Nina wrote: Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give freely. F: Yes.
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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      freyjartist@... wrote:
      Nina wrote:
      Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

      it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
      to give

      freely.



      F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
      to discern my own business.  
      When I am in my business, taking care of
      my own business, then I can
      give truly.  If I'm discerning
      what's going on over there, then what
      can I give from there?

      Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

      <<Quite right.  The association
      of generosity of spirit with
      naivete or gullibility is imo
      quite specious.>>

      F:  I don't think that is what the
      song is saying.  Just that one whose
      first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
      suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
      going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
      their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
      be generated that way?
      Ah, but "a response from the
      heart" *can't* "be generated." 
      Such a response cannot be
      stifled by suspicion or any
      other attempt to guard or
      horde something that's is, in
      fact, illusory, time-bound. 
      My insight into Sandeepji's
      m.o. has no effect on my love
      for him -- we certainly agree
      and commune over much more
      than we disagree or contend. 
      It's a melodramatic, kinetic
      lyric, but its implication
      that insight and savvy about
      nominally interpersonal
      matters preclude open-
      heartedness in relationship
      is false.  Understanding the
      human psyche is compassion's
      wise advisor, not its enemy.

      That word 'specious' is pretty
      darned specious, imo

      ;-)

      Does that mean you're suh-specious
      of my intention(s) to use it?
    • texasbg2000
      ... Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or con them into giving up their money or freedoms lose something. That one line that one who
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
        wrote:
        >
        > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
        > That never learns to dance
        >
        > It's the dream, afraid of waking
        > That never takes the chance
        >
        > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
        > Who cannot seem to give
        >
        > And the soul, afraid of dying
        > That never learns to live
        >
        > ~from "The Rose"
        > sung by Bette Midler

        Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con' them
        into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.

        That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something I
        believe.

        People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
        trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more suspicious
        of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will forgive
        a cheater sooner than another cheater will.

        The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They want
        to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
        then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
        control freak yourself.

        Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
        giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes with
        participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
        have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.

        Just some thoughts
        Love
        Bobby G.
      • Nina
        ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
          <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
          > > That never learns to dance
          > >
          > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
          > > That never takes the chance
          > >
          > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
          > > Who cannot seem to give
          > >
          > > And the soul, afraid of dying
          > > That never learns to live
          > >
          > > ~from "The Rose"
          > > sung by Bette Midler
          >
          > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
          them
          > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
          >
          > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
          I
          > believe.
          >
          > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
          > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
          suspicious
          > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
          forgive
          > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
          >
          > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
          want
          > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
          > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
          > control freak yourself.
          >
          > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
          > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
          with
          > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
          > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
          >
          > Just some thoughts
          > Love
          > Bobby G.

          There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
          and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
          straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
          may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
          within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
          it is even easier to understand where another person
          is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
          Morgan has described.

          To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
          or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
          Have you checked to see if they can recognize
          straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
          all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
          make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
          your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

          Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
          way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

          You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
          humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
          to yourself. Your choice.

          Nina
        • carolina112900
          ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
            <murrkis@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
            > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            freyjartist@a...
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
            > > > That never learns to dance
            > > >
            > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
            > > > That never takes the chance
            > > >
            > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
            > > > Who cannot seem to give
            > > >
            > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
            > > > That never learns to live
            > > >
            > > > ~from "The Rose"
            > > > sung by Bette Midler
            > >
            > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
            > them
            > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
            > >
            > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
            something
            > I
            > > believe.
            > >
            > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
            > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
            > suspicious
            > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
            > forgive
            > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
            > >
            > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
            > want
            > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
            controlled
            > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
            > > control freak yourself.
            > >
            > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
            with
            > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
            > with
            > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
            dont
            > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
            > >
            > > Just some thoughts
            > > Love
            > > Bobby G.
            >
            > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
            > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
            > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
            > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
            > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
            > it is even easier to understand where another person
            > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
            > Morgan has described.
            >

            Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
            love don't really have anything to do with each
            other.

            Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
            thinking one understands where another is coming from,
            it's just more of a
            way of viewing the world with heels dug
            in even deeper that one can truly understand
            or judge something-anything.

            The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

            The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
            embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
            knows. Unconditional love/compassion
            sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
            truth.

            ~~freyja


            > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
            > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
            > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
            > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
            > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
            > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
            > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
            >
            > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
            > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
            >
            > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
            > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
            > to yourself. Your choice.
            >
            > Nina
          • Nina
            ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
              <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
              > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
              > love don't really have anything to do with each
              > other.

              That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
              'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

              That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
              such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
              relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
              and so, do have some something to do with the other.

              > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
              > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
              > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
              > in even deeper that one can truly understand
              > or judge something-anything.

              Nope.

              > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

              Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
              no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
              from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

              > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
              > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
              > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
              > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
              >
              > ~~freyja
              >
              >
              > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
              > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
              > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
              > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
              > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
              > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
              > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
              > >
              > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
              > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
              > >
              > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
              > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
              > > to yourself. Your choice.
              > >
              > > Nina
            • texasbg2000
              ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                freyjartist@a...
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                > > > That never learns to dance
                > > >
                > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                > > > That never takes the chance
                > > >
                > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                > > > Who cannot seem to give
                > > >
                > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                > > > That never learns to live
                > > >
                > > > ~from "The Rose"
                > > > sung by Bette Midler
                > >
                > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                > them
                > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                > >
                > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                something
                > I
                > > believe.
                > >
                > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                > suspicious
                > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                > forgive
                > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                > >
                > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                > want
                > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                controlled
                > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                > > control freak yourself.
                > >
                > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                with
                > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                > with
                > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                dont
                > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                > >
                > > Just some thoughts
                > > Love
                > > Bobby G.
                >
                > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                > it is even easier to understand where another person
                > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                > Morgan has described.

                Dear Nina:

                I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
                valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
                manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
                distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

                It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
                that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
                That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
                their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
                My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
                separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
                Shade and the Personna).

                Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

                The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
                admit to, those of the Personna.

                It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
                negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
                events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
                not admit is me.

                Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
                things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
                me.

                So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
                and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
                everything gets complex.

                >
                > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

                "A person who lies is more
                suspicious
                of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                forgive
                a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
                to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
                liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
                sure that you could lie?

                > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

                > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                >
                > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                > to yourself. Your choice.

                It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
                protective.

                If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
                me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
                increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
                advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

                Love
                bobby g.
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