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Re: Pallavi's question/shape the hell up

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  • carolina112900
    Gene. What can I do if in this case you are mistaking sanity for drunkenness? Nothing. Think what you want, OK? ~~freyja
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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      Gene.

      What can I do if in this
      case you are mistaking sanity
      for drunkenness?

      Nothing.

      Think what you want, OK?

      ~~freyja

      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
      <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
      > >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)
      >
      > Gene Had written:
      >
      > > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
      > > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
      > > have been involved in its production.
      > >
      > > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
      > > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
      > > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
      > > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
      > > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
      > > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
      > > has Jason.
      > >
      > > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
      > >
      > > Dead babies? Where are the
      > > dead puppies and dead kittens?
      > >
      > > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
      > >
      >
      > Freya responded:
      >
      > > Drunk? Why? because
      > > you're not agreeing with
      > > my assessment?
      >
      > You call that an 'assessment'?
      >
      > > Which does
      > > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
      > > Not drunk, just getting radical here
      > > today.
      >
      > A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.
      >
      > > The thing is manipulative
      > > IF you see it that way,
      > > that's all, but it doesn't
      > > mean it absolutely is.
      >
      > 'Absolutely' was not an attribute
      > assigned by me!
      >
      > (straw-man argument fails)
      >
      > > The other thing
      > > is, it depends who is viewing
      > > the thing, who it is being shown to,
      > > what are the qualities of
      > > the demographic sample.
      >
      > Well, duh!
      >
      > (appeal to popularity argument fails)
      >
      > > People on this list may have differing
      > > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
      > > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
      > > members,
      > > there is no need to dismiss this piece
      > > out of hand as "manipulative".
      >
      > 'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!
      >
      > Your 'assessment' is still requested!
      >
      > So far, you have 'assessed' only the
      > other 'assessors'.
      >
      > > <<Good grief!
      > >
      > > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
      > > say to Charlie Brown when
      > > he says "Good Grief?"
      > >
      > > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
      > >
      > > ~~freyja
      >
      > Projections noted!
      >
      >
      > ==Gene Poole==
    • sandeep
      Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion versus shame, needing a context to reply
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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        Deception,
         
        manipulations,
         
        modus-operandi,
         
        guilt,
         
        intentions,
         
        canniness deciphering through canniness,
         
        true compassion versus shame,
         
        needing a context to reply to a kid ....
         
         
         
        ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
         
         
        The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
         
        It is not a  bewildered presentation.
         
        The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
         
        Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
         
         
         
        If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
         
         
        The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
         
        Thank you Melody
        Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
         
         
        Nina, what was my answer?
         
        Nothing.Or not in words.
         
        I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
         
        Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
         
        I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
         
        If they do.
         
        Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
        It has got uploaded to a few more.
        Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
         
        To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
        Hence decided the List route.
         
         
         
        Bob,.............Yes.
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
        And Freyja,.................:-)
         
        As you see, a live display of.........an arriving moment,................the immediate rising of a "what else is there to that moment".
         
         
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Melody" <melodyande@...>
        Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 05:36 AM
        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

        >
        > > >
        > > > What would you Nina, like to
        answer her?
        > >
        > > No, no, you posted the original, please
        do go first as
        > > regards what you would like to answer her.
        > >
        > > Nina
        >
        >
        >
        > Here....I'll
        start.
        >
        >
        > Dear Pallavi,
        >
        > The reason why
        some kids are concerned with
        > flavors of ice cream, while other kids
        are
        > concerned with surviving
        >
        > can be found within the
        question itself:
        > the word "other".
        >
        > As long as some
        people are regarded as
        > "not us", they will need to keep
        scratching
        > and clawing for their physical
        survival.
      • Jason Fishman
        sandeep wrote:Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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          sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
          Deception,
           
          manipulations,
           
          modus-operandi,
           
          guilt,
           
          intentions,
           
          canniness deciphering through canniness,
           
          true compassion versus shame,
           
          needing a context to reply to a kid ....
           
          ___ Yup all this on a meditation group, none the less. Simply ironic.
           
          ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
           
           
          The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
           
          It is not a  bewildered presentation.
           
          The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
           
          Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
           
          __ I think it's essentially that way for alot of people or maybe even ALL people. The driving question "why" moves people daily.
           
          If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
           
          __ As far as the answer, a ditto from me on Melody's post.
           
          The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
           
          Thank you Melody
          Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
           
           
          Nina, what was my answer?
           
          Nothing.Or not in words.
           
          I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
           
          Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
           
          I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
           
          If they do.
           
          ___ Moving words, Moreso then the presentation.
           
          Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
          It has got uploaded to a few more.
          Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
           
          ___ Not really, I'm not on many to take note. Your post would have gotten picked apart on most of the others, if it hadn't simply been somewhat ignored. The real problem is, it's not MY problem. Non-dual or religious schema aside.
           
          To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
          Hence decided the List route.
           
          __ Makes sense. I was curious if there was an instinct that there might be people more moved to write thier hearts here, then say over at the ranch. Not important just curious.
           
          I tend to think there is a great deal of dishonesty, here, there and everywhere. I think there is a buch of liars in among self-inquirers, among the politics of social behavior, I think it's not MY problem, knowing full well whats at play, is the biggest lie one can tell, along with playing out that lie as it trickles through the world.
           
          Since the issue was brought up as to intention here, I really could give a crap where it came from. Only that it's truthful, that it is what everyone deals with, whittingly or not, daily. Unless of course one is in a coma ;-)
           
          Do I think this has been going on for centuries? yup!
           
          Do I think it has gotten better since the cavemen? Absolutely no doubt, it has. Much farther away we are then survival of the fittest. I really don't have to do much and someone somewhere will "help" me out. Which at some point will be my reality, if I live that long.
           
          I typically see a continued clawing at the bounderies that keep us at odds, that keep this play of money/stuff/power, deforrestation, sucking up natural resources (irresponsibly), screwing up the enviroment, etc. etc. We have tons more to learn, no doubt...Hopefully we KEEP trying at it, trying to be more honest, more in tune with what keeps us living "creatures" on this planet. There is one thing for certain to me is I'm gonna die as a human body, best live as freely as a human body as I can (as responsibly as I can), without hindering "other" human bodies desire to live as well. Otherwise we mine as well blow the whole damn place up!
           
          YEA, YEA... I've heard it said a billion times too... And so it goes...
           
          Peace and Love


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          Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
        • Nina
          ... Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to my simple question. All from your initial turning of that question back around on me. If you wonder why
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
            <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
            > Deception,
            >
            > manipulations,
            >
            > modus-operandi,
            >
            > guilt,
            >
            > intentions,
            >
            > canniness deciphering through canniness,
            >
            > true compassion versus shame,
            >
            > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
            >
            >
            >
            > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.

            Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to
            my simple question. All from your initial turning
            of that question back around on me. If you wonder
            why that is, you might look to why you felt you
            had to hide your answer and could not write it
            flat-out as an accompaniment to your original post.
            Even saying, "Nothing. Or, not in words," would have
            sufficed.

            We weren't replying to Pallavi, as you had to. We were
            replying to your post, which you did not want to
            take responsibility for. Your choice, but don't go
            berating us for a perception of heartlessness.
            It was a psychological game, where the
            question is offered up as a way to force the outing
            of another's strategy, and where you, and anyone
            who expressed a heartrend or an appropriate
            'what is arising' answer, would win. Sandeep, from
            what I have seen of you on these lists, you are
            way too smart to not realize this action.

            Pretty much, you replied 'as expected'...
            from the 'high horse'... after everyone else
            had 'stuck their horse necks out'... and with
            the summary dismissal of everyone else's
            'replies'.

            Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
            horse shit and helpfulness.

            Have the nicest of days, really.

            Nina

            > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
            using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
            that is savy young mind at work.
            >
            > It is not a bewildered presentation.
            >
            > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
            it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
            someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
            hungry, and with my Papa".
            >
            > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
            be this way?"
            >
            >
            >
            > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
            articulate it,..........do so.
            >
            >
            > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
            width.
            >
            > Thank you Melody
            > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
            respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
            >
            >
            > Nina, what was my answer?
            >
            > Nothing. Or not in words.
            >
            > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
            >
            > Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
            >
            > I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the
            words to arise in that moment.
            >
            > If they do.
          • wrmspirit@aol.com
            Bandwidth doesn t discriminate between horse shit and helpfulness. Have the nicest of days, really. Nina The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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              Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
              horse shit and helpfulness.

              Have the nicest of days, really.

              Nina


              The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a constipated horse who cares not that another may step in it.......For the fly it becomes attractive, for the shoe, a nuisance, for the earth, fertilizer...
            • sandeep
              ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question



                > Have the nicest of days, really.
                >
                > Nina


                Thank you Nina.

                Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?
              • Nina
                ... I d probably give her a hug and tell her I don t have an answer. Nina
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                  <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
                  > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                  > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Have the nicest of days, really.
                  > >
                  > > Nina
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you Nina.
                  >
                  > Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?

                  I'd probably give her a hug and tell her I don't have an answer.

                  Nina
                • sandeep
                  ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM
                    Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question

                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                    > <
                    face=Arial size=2>sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > >
                    From: "Nina" <
                    murrkis@y...>
                    > > To:
                    <
                    meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25
                    PM
                    > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's
                    question
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 
                    > > > Have
                    the nicest of days, really.
                    > > >
                    > > > Nina
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thank you Nina.
                    > >
                    > > Do
                    you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                    >
                    > I'd probably give her a
                    hug and tell her I don't have an answer.
                    >
                    > Nina
                     
                     
                     
                    Thank you.
                     
                     
                  • Gene Poole
                    ... between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... No? Think again, wise one. On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      >sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

                      > Deception,
                      >
                      > manipulations,
                      >
                      > modus-operandi,
                      >
                      > guilt,
                      >
                      > intentions,
                      >
                      > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                      >
                      > true compassion versus shame,
                      >
                      > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                      >
                      >
                      > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast
                      between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                      >
                      > It is not a bewildered presentation.

                      No?

                      Think again, wise one.

                      On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                      posts what is claimed to be a presentation
                      composed by a 12 YO girl; and this becomes
                      an issue in itself, which it should be.

                      Sandeep, what is going on with you? Do you
                      imagine that you can or do control how any
                      posting is received?

                      Do you imagine that responses which are at
                      variance with what you want to hear, are somehow
                      indicative of flaws or shortcomings in the respondent?

                      My comment was that I have no proof that this
                      PP was actually made by a 12 YO girl; and that is
                      still an issue for me. I have no proof that you have
                      'hugged her' as she experienced her perplexity.

                      Frankly, as seen from here, the issue of 'what you
                      (Sandeep) are up to, is an important one.

                      Are you trying to bring up in the reader, resonance
                      with the suffering of the endangered and deprived?

                      I am sorry to say, that no such effort is required in
                      my case. I am fully 'resonant' with the plight of the
                      suffering innocents of this world. I am 'sorry to say',
                      for the simple reason that I wish that I too were 'innocent';
                      but, it is too late for me. I may not be 'innocent' in the
                      same way as the putative suffering 12 YO girl, but neither
                      am I 'guilty' of causing her any suffering.

                      So what the hell is up with you, Sandeep? Where is your
                      usual 'doo be doo be doo' non-attachment. and why do
                      you now hold everyone to your unstated standards of
                      morality?

                      These are serious questions from me, Sandeep; please
                      let me know. Please post your answer here.

                      12YO girls... kittens, puppies, dead babies and ice cream;
                      are those REALLY the imagery which are relevant to a 12YO
                      girl, in a 3rd world country?

                      Thank you...

                      ==Gene Poole==
                    • Onniko
                      ... using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... it, ..........where,........ in her words if I am
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                        <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                        > Deception,
                        >
                        > manipulations,
                        >
                        > modus-operandi,
                        >
                        > guilt,
                        >
                        > intentions,
                        >
                        > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                        >
                        > true compassion versus shame,
                        >
                        > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                        >
                        >
                        > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                        using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                        that is savy young mind at work.
                        >
                        > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                        >
                        > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                        it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                        someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                        hungry, and with my Papa".
                        >
                        > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                        be this way?"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                        articulate it,..........do so.
                        >
                        >
                        > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                        width.
                        >
                        > Thank you Melody
                        > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                        respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                        >
                        >
                        > Nina, what was my answer?
                        >
                        > Nothing.Or not in words.
                        >
                        > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                        >

                        *v* Oh? Are you saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                        personally know and who was crying over the children who did
                        not have peace and creature comforts?

                        That surprizes me because I've seen many children around that age
                        who have made art of the public appeals variety and they were as far
                        from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a
                        cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                        felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see
                        the injustice that they so recently learned to see.

                        Their feeling for the children they depicted was never sorrow,
                        but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                        something they felt the old people in power needed to
                        be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                        an insult to their intelligence, or a typical adult
                        brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                        response to what they felt was their very insightful media efforts.

                        Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads in here
                        I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting that
                        thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                        is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                        point while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                        the question was smart because it makes the viewer think,
                        whereas so often the authority method of script turns people
                        off. Nice presentation, Pallavi.
                      • sandeep
                        ... From: Onniko To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM Subject: [Meditation Society
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Onniko" <onniko@...>
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM
                          Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question


                          > >
                          > > I just held Pallavi in
                          my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                          > >
                          >
                          > *v* Oh? Are you
                          saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                          > personally know and who
                          was crying over the children who did
                          > not have peace and creature
                          comforts?
                           
                          Yes.
                          And it is more about the consequences for children caught in war zones and conflict situation, rather than of endemic deprivations.

                          >
                          > That surprizes me because I've seen many
                          children around that age  who have made art of the public appeals variety and they >were as far  from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                          >
                          felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see the injustice that they so recently learned to see.
                          >
                          > Their feeling for the children they depicted was
                          never sorrow, but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                          >
                          something they felt the old people in power needed to be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                          > an insult to their intelligence, or a
                          typical adult brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                          > response to what they felt was their very insightful media
                          efforts.
                           
                           
                          That indeed is also a typical response.
                           
                           
                          In this case, it was different.
                           

                          >
                          > Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads
                          in here
                          > I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting
                          that
                          > thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                          >
                          is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                          > point
                          while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                          > the question was
                          smart because it makes the viewer think,
                          > whereas so often the authority
                          method of script turns people
                          > off. Nice presentation,
                          Pallavi.
                           
                           
                          No Pallavi is not subbed to this List or any List for that matter.
                           
                          I will convey your thoughts to her.
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           

                           
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