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Re: The Rose

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  • freyjartist@aol.com
    ... it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give ... F: Yes. I figure it is best for me to discern my own business. When I am in my business,
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2 5:50 PM
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      Nina wrote:
      Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

      it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
      to give

      freely.



      F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
      to discern my own business.  
      When I am in my business, taking care of
      my own business, then I can
      give truly.  If I'm discerning
      what's going on over there, then what
      can I give from there?

      Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

      <<Quite right.  The association
      of generosity of spirit with
      naivete or gullibility is imo
      quite specious.>>

      F:  I don't think that is what the
      song is saying.  Just that one whose
      first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
      suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
      going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
      their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
      be generated that way?

      That word 'specious' is pretty
      darned specious, imo

      ;-)

      freyja





    • Bruce Morgen
      freyjartist@aol.com wrote: Nina wrote: Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give freely. F: Yes.
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2 6:47 PM
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        freyjartist@... wrote:
        Nina wrote:
        Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

        it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
        to give

        freely.



        F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
        to discern my own business.  
        When I am in my business, taking care of
        my own business, then I can
        give truly.  If I'm discerning
        what's going on over there, then what
        can I give from there?

        Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

        <<Quite right.  The association
        of generosity of spirit with
        naivete or gullibility is imo
        quite specious.>>

        F:  I don't think that is what the
        song is saying.  Just that one whose
        first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
        suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
        going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
        their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
        be generated that way?
        Ah, but "a response from the
        heart" *can't* "be generated." 
        Such a response cannot be
        stifled by suspicion or any
        other attempt to guard or
        horde something that's is, in
        fact, illusory, time-bound. 
        My insight into Sandeepji's
        m.o. has no effect on my love
        for him -- we certainly agree
        and commune over much more
        than we disagree or contend. 
        It's a melodramatic, kinetic
        lyric, but its implication
        that insight and savvy about
        nominally interpersonal
        matters preclude open-
        heartedness in relationship
        is false.  Understanding the
        human psyche is compassion's
        wise advisor, not its enemy.

        That word 'specious' is pretty
        darned specious, imo

        ;-)

        Does that mean you're suh-specious
        of my intention(s) to use it?
      • texasbg2000
        ... Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or con them into giving up their money or freedoms lose something. That one line that one who
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2 10:09 PM
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
          wrote:
          >
          > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
          > That never learns to dance
          >
          > It's the dream, afraid of waking
          > That never takes the chance
          >
          > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
          > Who cannot seem to give
          >
          > And the soul, afraid of dying
          > That never learns to live
          >
          > ~from "The Rose"
          > sung by Bette Midler

          Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con' them
          into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.

          That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something I
          believe.

          People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
          trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more suspicious
          of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will forgive
          a cheater sooner than another cheater will.

          The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They want
          to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
          then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
          control freak yourself.

          Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
          giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes with
          participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
          have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.

          Just some thoughts
          Love
          Bobby G.
        • Nina
          ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3 5:04 AM
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
            <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
            > > That never learns to dance
            > >
            > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
            > > That never takes the chance
            > >
            > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
            > > Who cannot seem to give
            > >
            > > And the soul, afraid of dying
            > > That never learns to live
            > >
            > > ~from "The Rose"
            > > sung by Bette Midler
            >
            > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
            them
            > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
            >
            > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
            I
            > believe.
            >
            > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
            > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
            suspicious
            > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
            forgive
            > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
            >
            > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
            want
            > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
            > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
            > control freak yourself.
            >
            > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
            > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
            with
            > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
            > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
            >
            > Just some thoughts
            > Love
            > Bobby G.

            There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
            and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
            straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
            may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
            within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
            it is even easier to understand where another person
            is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
            Morgan has described.

            To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
            or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
            Have you checked to see if they can recognize
            straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
            all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
            make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
            your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

            Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
            way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

            You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
            humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
            to yourself. Your choice.

            Nina
          • carolina112900
            ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3 5:38 AM
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
              > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              freyjartist@a...
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
              > > > That never learns to dance
              > > >
              > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
              > > > That never takes the chance
              > > >
              > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
              > > > Who cannot seem to give
              > > >
              > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
              > > > That never learns to live
              > > >
              > > > ~from "The Rose"
              > > > sung by Bette Midler
              > >
              > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
              > them
              > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
              > >
              > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
              something
              > I
              > > believe.
              > >
              > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
              > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
              > suspicious
              > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
              > forgive
              > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
              > >
              > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
              > want
              > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
              controlled
              > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
              > > control freak yourself.
              > >
              > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
              with
              > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
              > with
              > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
              dont
              > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
              > >
              > > Just some thoughts
              > > Love
              > > Bobby G.
              >
              > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
              > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
              > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
              > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
              > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
              > it is even easier to understand where another person
              > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
              > Morgan has described.
              >

              Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
              love don't really have anything to do with each
              other.

              Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
              thinking one understands where another is coming from,
              it's just more of a
              way of viewing the world with heels dug
              in even deeper that one can truly understand
              or judge something-anything.

              The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

              The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
              embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
              knows. Unconditional love/compassion
              sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
              truth.

              ~~freyja


              > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
              > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
              > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
              > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
              > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
              > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
              > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
              >
              > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
              > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
              >
              > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
              > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
              > to yourself. Your choice.
              >
              > Nina
            • Nina
              ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3 6:12 AM
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
                > love don't really have anything to do with each
                > other.

                That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
                'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

                That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
                such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
                relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
                and so, do have some something to do with the other.

                > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
                > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
                > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
                > in even deeper that one can truly understand
                > or judge something-anything.

                Nope.

                > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

                Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
                no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
                from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

                > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
                > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
                > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
                > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
                >
                > ~~freyja
                >
                >
                > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
                > >
                > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                > >
                > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                > > to yourself. Your choice.
                > >
                > > Nina
              • texasbg2000
                ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3 11:36 AM
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                  <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                  > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  freyjartist@a...
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                  > > > That never learns to dance
                  > > >
                  > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                  > > > That never takes the chance
                  > > >
                  > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                  > > > Who cannot seem to give
                  > > >
                  > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                  > > > That never learns to live
                  > > >
                  > > > ~from "The Rose"
                  > > > sung by Bette Midler
                  > >
                  > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                  > them
                  > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                  > >
                  > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                  something
                  > I
                  > > believe.
                  > >
                  > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                  > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                  > suspicious
                  > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                  > forgive
                  > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                  > >
                  > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                  > want
                  > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                  controlled
                  > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                  > > control freak yourself.
                  > >
                  > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                  with
                  > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                  > with
                  > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                  dont
                  > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                  > >
                  > > Just some thoughts
                  > > Love
                  > > Bobby G.
                  >
                  > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                  > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                  > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                  > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                  > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                  > it is even easier to understand where another person
                  > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                  > Morgan has described.

                  Dear Nina:

                  I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
                  valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
                  manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
                  distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

                  It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
                  that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
                  That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
                  their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
                  My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
                  separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
                  Shade and the Personna).

                  Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

                  The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
                  admit to, those of the Personna.

                  It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
                  negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
                  events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
                  not admit is me.

                  Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
                  things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
                  me.

                  So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
                  and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
                  everything gets complex.

                  >
                  > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                  > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

                  "A person who lies is more
                  suspicious
                  of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                  forgive
                  a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
                  to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
                  liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
                  sure that you could lie?

                  > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                  > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                  > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                  > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                  > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

                  > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                  > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                  >
                  > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                  > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                  > to yourself. Your choice.

                  It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
                  protective.

                  If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
                  me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
                  increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
                  advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

                  Love
                  bobby g.
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