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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: The Rose

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  • Bruce Morgen
    ... wrote: It s the one who won t be taken (or tricked or manipulated) Who cannot seem to give Discernment is a skill, which may be honed, and it has little or
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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      Nina wrote:
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a... 
      wrote:
        
      It's the one who won't be taken 
      (or tricked or manipulated)
      Who cannot seem to give
          
      Discernment is a skill,
      which may be honed, and
      it has little or nothing
      to do with one's ability
      to give freely.
      
        

      Quite right.  The association
      of generosity of spirit with
      naivete or gullibility is imo
      quite specious.
    • freyjartist@aol.com
      ... it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give ... F: Yes. I figure it is best for me to discern my own business. When I am in my business,
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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        Nina wrote:
        Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

        it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
        to give

        freely.



        F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
        to discern my own business.  
        When I am in my business, taking care of
        my own business, then I can
        give truly.  If I'm discerning
        what's going on over there, then what
        can I give from there?

        Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

        <<Quite right.  The association
        of generosity of spirit with
        naivete or gullibility is imo
        quite specious.>>

        F:  I don't think that is what the
        song is saying.  Just that one whose
        first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
        suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
        going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
        their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
        be generated that way?

        That word 'specious' is pretty
        darned specious, imo

        ;-)

        freyja





      • Bruce Morgen
        freyjartist@aol.com wrote: Nina wrote: Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give freely. F: Yes.
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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          freyjartist@... wrote:
          Nina wrote:
          Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

          it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
          to give

          freely.



          F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
          to discern my own business.  
          When I am in my business, taking care of
          my own business, then I can
          give truly.  If I'm discerning
          what's going on over there, then what
          can I give from there?

          Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

          <<Quite right.  The association
          of generosity of spirit with
          naivete or gullibility is imo
          quite specious.>>

          F:  I don't think that is what the
          song is saying.  Just that one whose
          first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
          suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
          going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
          their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
          be generated that way?
          Ah, but "a response from the
          heart" *can't* "be generated." 
          Such a response cannot be
          stifled by suspicion or any
          other attempt to guard or
          horde something that's is, in
          fact, illusory, time-bound. 
          My insight into Sandeepji's
          m.o. has no effect on my love
          for him -- we certainly agree
          and commune over much more
          than we disagree or contend. 
          It's a melodramatic, kinetic
          lyric, but its implication
          that insight and savvy about
          nominally interpersonal
          matters preclude open-
          heartedness in relationship
          is false.  Understanding the
          human psyche is compassion's
          wise advisor, not its enemy.

          That word 'specious' is pretty
          darned specious, imo

          ;-)

          Does that mean you're suh-specious
          of my intention(s) to use it?
        • texasbg2000
          ... Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or con them into giving up their money or freedoms lose something. That one line that one who
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
            wrote:
            >
            > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
            > That never learns to dance
            >
            > It's the dream, afraid of waking
            > That never takes the chance
            >
            > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
            > Who cannot seem to give
            >
            > And the soul, afraid of dying
            > That never learns to live
            >
            > ~from "The Rose"
            > sung by Bette Midler

            Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con' them
            into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.

            That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something I
            believe.

            People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
            trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more suspicious
            of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will forgive
            a cheater sooner than another cheater will.

            The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They want
            to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
            then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
            control freak yourself.

            Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
            giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes with
            participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
            have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.

            Just some thoughts
            Love
            Bobby G.
          • Nina
            ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
              <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
              > > That never learns to dance
              > >
              > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
              > > That never takes the chance
              > >
              > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
              > > Who cannot seem to give
              > >
              > > And the soul, afraid of dying
              > > That never learns to live
              > >
              > > ~from "The Rose"
              > > sung by Bette Midler
              >
              > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
              them
              > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
              >
              > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
              I
              > believe.
              >
              > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
              > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
              suspicious
              > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
              forgive
              > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
              >
              > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
              want
              > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
              > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
              > control freak yourself.
              >
              > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
              > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
              with
              > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
              > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
              >
              > Just some thoughts
              > Love
              > Bobby G.

              There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
              and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
              straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
              may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
              within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
              it is even easier to understand where another person
              is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
              Morgan has described.

              To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
              or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
              Have you checked to see if they can recognize
              straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
              all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
              make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
              your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

              Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
              way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

              You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
              humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
              to yourself. Your choice.

              Nina
            • carolina112900
              ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                freyjartist@a...
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                > > > That never learns to dance
                > > >
                > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                > > > That never takes the chance
                > > >
                > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                > > > Who cannot seem to give
                > > >
                > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                > > > That never learns to live
                > > >
                > > > ~from "The Rose"
                > > > sung by Bette Midler
                > >
                > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                > them
                > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                > >
                > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                something
                > I
                > > believe.
                > >
                > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                > suspicious
                > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                > forgive
                > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                > >
                > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                > want
                > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                controlled
                > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                > > control freak yourself.
                > >
                > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                with
                > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                > with
                > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                dont
                > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                > >
                > > Just some thoughts
                > > Love
                > > Bobby G.
                >
                > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                > it is even easier to understand where another person
                > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                > Morgan has described.
                >

                Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
                love don't really have anything to do with each
                other.

                Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
                thinking one understands where another is coming from,
                it's just more of a
                way of viewing the world with heels dug
                in even deeper that one can truly understand
                or judge something-anything.

                The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

                The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
                embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
                knows. Unconditional love/compassion
                sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
                truth.

                ~~freyja


                > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
                >
                > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                >
                > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                > to yourself. Your choice.
                >
                > Nina
              • Nina
                ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
                  > love don't really have anything to do with each
                  > other.

                  That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
                  'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

                  That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
                  such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
                  relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
                  and so, do have some something to do with the other.

                  > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
                  > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
                  > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
                  > in even deeper that one can truly understand
                  > or judge something-anything.

                  Nope.

                  > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

                  Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
                  no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
                  from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

                  > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
                  > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
                  > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
                  > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
                  >
                  > ~~freyja
                  >
                  >
                  > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                  > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                  > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                  > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                  > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                  > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                  > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
                  > >
                  > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                  > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                  > >
                  > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                  > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                  > > to yourself. Your choice.
                  > >
                  > > Nina
                • texasbg2000
                  ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                    <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                    > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    freyjartist@a...
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                    > > > That never learns to dance
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                    > > > That never takes the chance
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                    > > > Who cannot seem to give
                    > > >
                    > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                    > > > That never learns to live
                    > > >
                    > > > ~from "The Rose"
                    > > > sung by Bette Midler
                    > >
                    > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                    > them
                    > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                    > >
                    > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                    something
                    > I
                    > > believe.
                    > >
                    > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                    > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                    > suspicious
                    > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                    > forgive
                    > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                    > >
                    > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                    > want
                    > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                    controlled
                    > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                    > > control freak yourself.
                    > >
                    > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                    with
                    > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                    > with
                    > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                    dont
                    > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                    > >
                    > > Just some thoughts
                    > > Love
                    > > Bobby G.
                    >
                    > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                    > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                    > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                    > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                    > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                    > it is even easier to understand where another person
                    > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                    > Morgan has described.

                    Dear Nina:

                    I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
                    valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
                    manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
                    distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

                    It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
                    that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
                    That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
                    their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
                    My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
                    separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
                    Shade and the Personna).

                    Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

                    The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
                    admit to, those of the Personna.

                    It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
                    negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
                    events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
                    not admit is me.

                    Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
                    things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
                    me.

                    So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
                    and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
                    everything gets complex.

                    >
                    > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                    > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

                    "A person who lies is more
                    suspicious
                    of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                    forgive
                    a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
                    to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
                    liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
                    sure that you could lie?

                    > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                    > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                    > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                    > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                    > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

                    > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                    > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                    >
                    > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                    > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                    > to yourself. Your choice.

                    It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
                    protective.

                    If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
                    me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
                    increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
                    advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

                    Love
                    bobby g.
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