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The Rose

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  • freyjartist@aol.com
    It s the heart, afraid of breaking That never learns to dance It s the dream, afraid of waking That never takes the chance It s the one who won t be taken (or
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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      It's the heart, afraid of breaking
      That never learns to dance

      It's the dream, afraid of waking
      That never takes the chance

      It's the one who won't be taken (
      or tricked or manipulated)
      Who cannot seem to give

      And the soul, afraid of dying
      That never learns to live

      ~from "The Rose"
      sung by Bette Midler

    • Nina
      ... Discernment is a skill, which may be honed, and it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give freely. Nina
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
        wrote:
        > It's the one who won't be taken
        > (or tricked or manipulated)
        > Who cannot seem to give

        Discernment is a skill,
        which may be honed, and
        it has little or nothing
        to do with one's ability
        to give freely.

        Nina
      • Bruce Morgen
        ... wrote: It s the one who won t be taken (or tricked or manipulated) Who cannot seem to give Discernment is a skill, which may be honed, and it has little or
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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          Nina wrote:
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a... 
          wrote:
            
          It's the one who won't be taken 
          (or tricked or manipulated)
          Who cannot seem to give
              
          Discernment is a skill,
          which may be honed, and
          it has little or nothing
          to do with one's ability
          to give freely.
          
            

          Quite right.  The association
          of generosity of spirit with
          naivete or gullibility is imo
          quite specious.
        • freyjartist@aol.com
          ... it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give ... F: Yes. I figure it is best for me to discern my own business. When I am in my business,
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Nina wrote:
            Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

            it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
            to give

            freely.



            F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
            to discern my own business.  
            When I am in my business, taking care of
            my own business, then I can
            give truly.  If I'm discerning
            what's going on over there, then what
            can I give from there?

            Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

            <<Quite right.  The association
            of generosity of spirit with
            naivete or gullibility is imo
            quite specious.>>

            F:  I don't think that is what the
            song is saying.  Just that one whose
            first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
            suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
            going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
            their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
            be generated that way?

            That word 'specious' is pretty
            darned specious, imo

            ;-)

            freyja





          • Bruce Morgen
            freyjartist@aol.com wrote: Nina wrote: Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and it has little or nothing to do with one s ability to give freely. F: Yes.
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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              freyjartist@... wrote:
              Nina wrote:
              Discernment is a skill,which may be honed, and

              it has little or nothing to do with one's ability
              to give

              freely.



              F:  Yes.  I figure it is best for me
              to discern my own business.  
              When I am in my business, taking care of
              my own business, then I can
              give truly.  If I'm discerning
              what's going on over there, then what
              can I give from there?

              Bruce wrote in response to Nina's:

              <<Quite right.  The association
              of generosity of spirit with
              naivete or gullibility is imo
              quite specious.>>

              F:  I don't think that is what the
              song is saying.  Just that one whose
              first reactions are usually suspicious reactions--
              suspecting that there is manipulation and trickery
              going on--can't possibly be caught disarmed, with
              their guard down.  Can a response from the heart
              be generated that way?
              Ah, but "a response from the
              heart" *can't* "be generated." 
              Such a response cannot be
              stifled by suspicion or any
              other attempt to guard or
              horde something that's is, in
              fact, illusory, time-bound. 
              My insight into Sandeepji's
              m.o. has no effect on my love
              for him -- we certainly agree
              and commune over much more
              than we disagree or contend. 
              It's a melodramatic, kinetic
              lyric, but its implication
              that insight and savvy about
              nominally interpersonal
              matters preclude open-
              heartedness in relationship
              is false.  Understanding the
              human psyche is compassion's
              wise advisor, not its enemy.

              That word 'specious' is pretty
              darned specious, imo

              ;-)

              Does that mean you're suh-specious
              of my intention(s) to use it?
            • texasbg2000
              ... Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or con them into giving up their money or freedoms lose something. That one line that one who
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                wrote:
                >
                > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                > That never learns to dance
                >
                > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                > That never takes the chance
                >
                > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                > Who cannot seem to give
                >
                > And the soul, afraid of dying
                > That never learns to live
                >
                > ~from "The Rose"
                > sung by Bette Midler

                Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con' them
                into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.

                That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something I
                believe.

                People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more suspicious
                of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will forgive
                a cheater sooner than another cheater will.

                The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They want
                to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
                then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                control freak yourself.

                Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
                giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes with
                participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
                have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.

                Just some thoughts
                Love
                Bobby G.
              • Nina
                ... them ... I ... suspicious ... forgive ... want ... with ... There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral and allows that there are liers and
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                  <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                  > > That never learns to dance
                  > >
                  > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                  > > That never takes the chance
                  > >
                  > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                  > > Who cannot seem to give
                  > >
                  > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                  > > That never learns to live
                  > >
                  > > ~from "The Rose"
                  > > sung by Bette Midler
                  >
                  > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                  them
                  > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                  >
                  > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is something
                  I
                  > believe.
                  >
                  > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                  > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                  suspicious
                  > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                  forgive
                  > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                  >
                  > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                  want
                  > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be controlled
                  > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                  > control freak yourself.
                  >
                  > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere with
                  > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                  with
                  > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you dont
                  > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                  >
                  > Just some thoughts
                  > Love
                  > Bobby G.

                  There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                  and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                  straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                  may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                  within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                  it is even easier to understand where another person
                  is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                  Morgan has described.

                  To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                  or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                  Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                  straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                  all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                  make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                  your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

                  Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                  way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.

                  You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                  humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                  to yourself. Your choice.

                  Nina
                • carolina112900
                  ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional love don t really have anything to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                    <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                    > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    freyjartist@a...
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                    > > > That never learns to dance
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                    > > > That never takes the chance
                    > > >
                    > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                    > > > Who cannot seem to give
                    > > >
                    > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                    > > > That never learns to live
                    > > >
                    > > > ~from "The Rose"
                    > > > sung by Bette Midler
                    > >
                    > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                    > them
                    > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                    > >
                    > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                    something
                    > I
                    > > believe.
                    > >
                    > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                    > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                    > suspicious
                    > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                    > forgive
                    > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                    > >
                    > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                    > want
                    > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                    controlled
                    > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                    > > control freak yourself.
                    > >
                    > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                    with
                    > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                    > with
                    > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                    dont
                    > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                    > >
                    > > Just some thoughts
                    > > Love
                    > > Bobby G.
                    >
                    > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                    > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                    > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                    > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                    > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                    > it is even easier to understand where another person
                    > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                    > Morgan has described.
                    >

                    Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
                    love don't really have anything to do with each
                    other.

                    Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
                    thinking one understands where another is coming from,
                    it's just more of a
                    way of viewing the world with heels dug
                    in even deeper that one can truly understand
                    or judge something-anything.

                    The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

                    The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
                    embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
                    knows. Unconditional love/compassion
                    sees no other. Everything, exactly the way it is, is the
                    truth.

                    ~~freyja


                    > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                    > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                    > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                    > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                    > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                    > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                    > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
                    >
                    > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                    > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                    >
                    > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                    > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                    > to yourself. Your choice.
                    >
                    > Nina
                  • Nina
                    ... That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of understanding compassion/unconditional love. That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                      <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                      > Concept and reason and true compassion/unconditional
                      > love don't really have anything to do with each
                      > other.

                      That is arguable, when one has constructed a way of
                      'understanding' compassion/unconditional love.

                      That is also arguable, because elements that co-exist,
                      such as 'being human' and 'Being being', do have a
                      relationship. If nothing else, they are 'juxtaposed',
                      and so, do have some something to do with the other.

                      > Maybe this understanding you're referring to,
                      > thinking one understands where another is coming from,
                      > it's just more of a way of viewing the world with heels dug
                      > in even deeper that one can truly understand
                      > or judge something-anything.

                      Nope.

                      > The human reasoning perspective, perceptual mechanism, is limited.

                      Yep, it is limited, but it is 'what we have'...
                      no matter whether or not you feel you are coming
                      from a place of "unconditional love/compassion".

                      > The vastness of unconditional love/compassion
                      > embraces all of it. Not what the mind thinks it
                      > knows. Unconditional love/compassion sees no other.
                      > Everything, exactly the way it is, is the truth.
                      >
                      > ~~freyja
                      >
                      >
                      > > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                      > > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.
                      > > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                      > > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                      > > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                      > > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                      > > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?
                      > >
                      > > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                      > > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                      > >
                      > > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                      > > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                      > > to yourself. Your choice.
                      > >
                      > > Nina
                    • texasbg2000
                      ... freyjartist@a... ... something ... controlled ... with ... dont ... Dear Nina: I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something valuable in
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 3, 2004
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                        > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        freyjartist@a...
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > It's the heart, afraid of breaking
                        > > > That never learns to dance
                        > > >
                        > > > It's the dream, afraid of waking
                        > > > That never takes the chance
                        > > >
                        > > > It's the one who won't be taken (or tricked or manipulated)
                        > > > Who cannot seem to give
                        > > >
                        > > > And the soul, afraid of dying
                        > > > That never learns to live
                        > > >
                        > > > ~from "The Rose"
                        > > > sung by Bette Midler
                        > >
                        > > Nice poetry Freyja. People who want to run others lives or 'con'
                        > them
                        > > into giving up their money or freedoms lose something.
                        > >
                        > > That one line that one who won't be taken cannot give is
                        something
                        > I
                        > > believe.
                        > >
                        > > People who want to 'take' others look at others as if they were
                        > > trying to do the same to them. A person who lies is more
                        > suspicious
                        > > of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                        > forgive
                        > > a cheater sooner than another cheater will.
                        > >
                        > > The worst part is that they do not want to be controlled. They
                        > want
                        > > to control others. If it becomes an obsession to not be
                        controlled
                        > > then you probably should look to see if you are manipulative or a
                        > > control freak yourself.
                        > >
                        > > Resisting being controlled by circumstances seems to interfere
                        with
                        > > giving to me. It sets one aside from a situation and interferes
                        > with
                        > > participation. Sure you get taken in a lot by people but you
                        dont
                        > > have to keep a tight asshole all the time like they do.
                        > >
                        > > Just some thoughts
                        > > Love
                        > > Bobby G.
                        >
                        > There is a way of viewing the world that is neutral
                        > and allows that there are liers and cheaters as well
                        > straight-talkers and generous people. In fact, it
                        > may be seen that we each carry a mix of these manifestations
                        > within us, to differing ratios. Once this is realized,
                        > it is even easier to understand where another person
                        > is coming from... with compassion of the sort Bruce
                        > Morgan has described.

                        Dear Nina:

                        I think the lyric is intended to make us see there is something
                        valuable in being vulnerable. I wrote a short essay years ago about
                        manipulators resisting manipulation themselves and the way it
                        distorts interaction, and this touched a nerve on that topic.

                        It is my way to try to see the effects on myself of my actions and
                        that is the direction I intended for this response to the lyrics.
                        That is, if I manipulate others to my advantage, when I know it is to
                        their disadvantage, what sort of fallout will I receive from that?
                        My idea is that it limits my involvment in a general sense. It
                        separates me and creates dualism of the fourth type (Ken Wilber- the
                        Shade and the Personna).

                        Acts of the Shade type are acts which I think are not typical of me.

                        The "Me" acts which I think are typical of me are are the actions I
                        admit to, those of the Personna.

                        It is typical to believe that the things I do that I believe are
                        negative is just a slip up. But in this dualism way of describing
                        events they would simply be actions of the Shade, the 'me' that I do
                        not admit is me.

                        Of course the reverse is true too. The personna can be negative
                        things and the shade are 'good' things I do that I cannot admit are
                        me.

                        So if I manipulate others I can believe I really am a negative person
                        and the positive things I do are all faked for whatever reasons. Then
                        everything gets complex.

                        >
                        > To suggest that because someone can recognize lies
                        > or cheats they are lies and cheats, is a false logic.

                        "A person who lies is more
                        suspicious
                        of others lying than one who does not. An honest person will
                        forgive
                        a cheater sooner than another cheater will." It still seems right
                        to me. I dont personally know anyone who is not a cheater or a
                        liar. If you did not ever encounter a lie in someone else are you so
                        sure that you could lie?

                        > Have you checked to see if they can recognize
                        > straight-talk and generosity? What if they can recognize
                        > all of those? What, then, by your logic, does that
                        > make them? What, then, by your logic, are you, based on
                        > your recognition that tightwads recognize other tightwads?

                        > Meditation and self-study are ways of getting beyond this
                        > way of viewing the world and the 'others' in it.
                        >
                        > You can give yourself away freely and recklessly to other
                        > humans, or you can give yourself away freely and recklessly
                        > to yourself. Your choice.

                        It is a dangerous world. But it is reckless in a sense to become too
                        protective.

                        If I see others as myself then I dont mind if they get something from
                        me. But if they get hurt more taking something from me (because they
                        increase the shade-personna split) then I dont want them to take
                        advantage. Is this giving myself to myself?

                        Love
                        bobby g.
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