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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question/shape the hell up

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  • Jason Fishman
    Gene Poole wrote: It appears to me that this powerpoint file was NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may have been involved in its
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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      Gene Poole <gene_poole@...> wrote:

      It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
      NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
      have been involved in its production.
       
      ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the intent.

      I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
      although some discussion has been forthcoming,
      my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
      manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
      already a context within the 'reader' which will be
      prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
      has Jason.
       
      ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail, that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.

      Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

      Dead babies? Where are the
      dead puppies and dead kittens?
       
      ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.) Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well. Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.



      Peace and Love


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    • Gene Poole
      ... You call that an assessment ? ... A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated. ... Absolutely was not an attribute assigned by me! (straw-man argument
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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        >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)

        Gene Had written:

        > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
        > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
        > have been involved in its production.
        >
        > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
        > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
        > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
        > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
        > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
        > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
        > has Jason.
        >
        > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
        >
        > Dead babies? Where are the
        > dead puppies and dead kittens?
        >
        > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
        >

        Freya responded:

        > Drunk? Why? because
        > you're not agreeing with
        > my assessment?

        You call that an 'assessment'?

        > Which does
        > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
        > Not drunk, just getting radical here
        > today.

        A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.

        > The thing is manipulative
        > IF you see it that way,
        > that's all, but it doesn't
        > mean it absolutely is.

        'Absolutely' was not an attribute
        assigned by me!

        (straw-man argument fails)

        > The other thing
        > is, it depends who is viewing
        > the thing, who it is being shown to,
        > what are the qualities of
        > the demographic sample.

        Well, duh!

        (appeal to popularity argument fails)

        > People on this list may have differing
        > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
        > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
        > members,
        > there is no need to dismiss this piece
        > out of hand as "manipulative".

        'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!

        Your 'assessment' is still requested!

        So far, you have 'assessed' only the
        other 'assessors'.

        > <<Good grief!
        >
        > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
        > say to Charlie Brown when
        > he says "Good Grief?"
        >
        > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
        >
        > ~~freyja

        Projections noted!


        ==Gene Poole==
      • Bruce Morgen
        Jason Fishman wrote: Bruce Morgen wrote: Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep, Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would care to share your
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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          Jason Fishman wrote:


          Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
          Nina wrote:
          Hello, Sandeep,
          
          Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
          care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
          
          In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
          However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
          conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
          in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
          
          What moved you to post it here?
                    
          I thought Nina might be moved.
          
          Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
          with the world right now.
          
          What would you Nina, like to answer her?
                
          No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
          regards what you would like to answer her.
          
          Nina
          
          
          Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
          
          Peace and Love
              
          Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
          taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
          uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
          then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
          remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
          another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
          I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
          it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
          such a place.
          
          
            

          I personally don't see this
          girl as "bewildered" at all.
          Like most bright, computer-
          equipped kids of her years,
          she's far too savvy to not
          be aware of the age-old
          haves vs. have-nots
          dichotomy that has
          characterized human history
          from the recorded gitgo.

          That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"

          It doesn't take much in the
          way of "gumption" to
          assemble a PowerPoint show
          and ask a question with a
          very well-known (if not
          terribly gratifying" answer.


          Sandeep is also very canny
          -- he's presenting this as
          a guilt trip to ellicit
          sympathy from materially
          comfortable middle-class
          folks who, by dint of
          cultural and/or hormonal
          conditioning, are attracted
          to little children.  There
          is a big difference between
          guilt/shame-provoked
          sentiment and true compassion,
          which isn't in the least bit
          sentimental and is never the
          result of deft emotional
          manipulation.

          Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves?


          Compassion is the human
          body/mind's expression of
          non-dual realization.  It
          has nothing to do with
          sentiment at all, and its
          form are myriad and often
          (if superficially) seem to
          be downright unkind.

          You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate.

          Compassion has nothing
          whatsoever to do with
          appearances.

          It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result.

          Karma is karma, there will
          always be causes and
          effects.  If the planet
          embraces a generous ilk of
          Fabian Socialism and
          strives mightily to bridge
          the have/have-not disparity,
          that too will have effects,
          and undoubtedly some of them
          will be unanticipated by the
          idealists who long for such
          a paradigm shift.

          Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental.

          Sorry, Jason, I don't get
          what you mean by the above.

          Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives.

          You wanting or not wanting it
          is irrelevant, it's simply the
          way it continues to be.  Given
          the burgeoning growth of
          middle classes all over the
          world in the last century
          (disproportionately in North
          America, western Europe, and
          northeast Asia, but I digress),
          there are probably more "haves"
          by percentage than at any other
          time in human history.  Of
          course this serves to underline
          the bereft state of the (still
          billions of) "have-nots," but
          the situation is improving at
          may well be the limit of a
          planet-sized population's
          ability to endure and integrate
          change.

          Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

          Yes, something that Sandeep's
          contrivance doesn't address.

          There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

          All that has to happen is a
          broad political consensus
          among the "haves" for the
          sharing of unneeded resources --
          a worthy goal, but not any easy
          one!

          Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

          Whatever, we each in our own
          way took Sandeepji's bait --
          you to express generosity with
          (your and other folks') material
          wealth, me to point out some
          deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
          part.  The meditative state is
          one of equanimity to either ilk
          of response -- creation is
          perfect with or without human
          material generosity (a perogative
          of the relatively wealthy) and
          selfishness (if not overdone, a
          simple survival trait) or, for
          that matter, the ancient (but
          merely apparent) dichotomy
          between the two.

          Peace and Love



        • Jason Fishman
          Bruce Morgen wrote: Whatever, we each in our own way took Sandeepji s bait -- you to express generosity with (your and other folks ) material
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
             
            Whatever, we each in our own
            way took Sandeepji's bait --
            you to express generosity with
            (your and other folks') material
            wealth, me to point out some
            deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
            part. 
             
            So, there is bait? A game between the haves and have nots can easily be taken out in football field or any other sports venue, which doesn't neccesarily have to envolve weapons of the haves protecting their goods from the have nots. If it's entertainment one see's when watching people dying long slow and very painful deaths then that seems like it can be avoided. I'd be hard pressed to honestly say that human life conditions, over the centuries hasn't gotten "better" through all this turmoil. Although I'm certain, looking through non-dualist eyes, sees this as hoopla. Sandeep has offered up a group that appeals to the thoughts of a better governing body (if for no other reason then his own amusment) which has often sparked some pretty wonderfully thought out debates or bait, as the case may be.
             
            The meditative state is
            one of equanimity to either ilk
            of response -- creation is
            perfect with or without human
            material generosity (a perogative
            of the relatively wealthy) and
            selfishness (if not overdone, a
            simple survival trait) or, for
            that matter, the ancient (but
            merely apparent) dichotomy
            between the two.
             
            Great, I'm certainly glad that you have the meditative state down to a science, material generosity (in the aspect of food and viable shelter) isn't even where I was looking. If anywhere it would be in exemplifying a generosity between the local haves and have nots.
             
            The Global society has been born with the advent of technologies to traverse distances in shorter periods of time and carrier more people. We basicly use this technology to trade goods travel or go off to war, yet at home (the source of those goods, even in simple concept) is how we go about our daily lives. I'm addressing what can be done at home (so to speak) as to have a system that works a little better (more even keeled) that is more self reliant. It's very apparent that all one has to offer is ablility to enjoy life without hinderence of food loss, shelter dismantaling, and a way to keep things somewhat balanced. To you there may be no way, everything is functioning just fine, that is your contribution as noted, within your ability.
             
            Peace and love


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          • Melody
            ... Here....I ll start. Dear Pallavi, The reason why some kids are concerned with flavors of ice cream, while other kids are concerned with surviving can be
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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              > >
              > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
              >
              > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
              > regards what you would like to answer her.
              >
              > Nina



              Here....I'll start.


              Dear Pallavi,

              The reason why some kids are concerned with
              flavors of ice cream, while other kids are
              concerned with surviving

              can be found within the question itself:
              the word "other".

              As long as some people are regarded as
              "not us", they will need to keep scratching
              and clawing for their physical survival.
            • Onniko
              ... intent. ... that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well. ... only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                >
                > It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                > have been involved in its production.
                >
                > ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the
                intent.
                >
                > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                > has Jason.
                >
                > ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail,
                that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.
                >
                > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                >
                > Dead babies? Where are the
                > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                >
                > ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's
                only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers.
                The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we
                have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of
                suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to
                reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation
                just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven
                year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.)

                *v* That's a good point, Jason. It's actually very typical
                of that age group as their creative efforts are often
                directed to emotional areas of life. The concrete is being
                expanded to the abstract and the area of compassion for
                others is being explored.


                Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for
                help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then
                the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well.
                Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.
                >
                >
                >
                > Peace and Love
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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              • carolina112900
                Gene. What can I do if in this case you are mistaking sanity for drunkenness? Nothing. Think what you want, OK? ~~freyja
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  Gene.

                  What can I do if in this
                  case you are mistaking sanity
                  for drunkenness?

                  Nothing.

                  Think what you want, OK?

                  ~~freyja

                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                  <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                  > >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)
                  >
                  > Gene Had written:
                  >
                  > > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                  > > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                  > > have been involved in its production.
                  > >
                  > > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                  > > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                  > > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                  > > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                  > > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                  > > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                  > > has Jason.
                  > >
                  > > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                  > >
                  > > Dead babies? Where are the
                  > > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                  > >
                  > > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
                  > >
                  >
                  > Freya responded:
                  >
                  > > Drunk? Why? because
                  > > you're not agreeing with
                  > > my assessment?
                  >
                  > You call that an 'assessment'?
                  >
                  > > Which does
                  > > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
                  > > Not drunk, just getting radical here
                  > > today.
                  >
                  > A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.
                  >
                  > > The thing is manipulative
                  > > IF you see it that way,
                  > > that's all, but it doesn't
                  > > mean it absolutely is.
                  >
                  > 'Absolutely' was not an attribute
                  > assigned by me!
                  >
                  > (straw-man argument fails)
                  >
                  > > The other thing
                  > > is, it depends who is viewing
                  > > the thing, who it is being shown to,
                  > > what are the qualities of
                  > > the demographic sample.
                  >
                  > Well, duh!
                  >
                  > (appeal to popularity argument fails)
                  >
                  > > People on this list may have differing
                  > > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
                  > > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
                  > > members,
                  > > there is no need to dismiss this piece
                  > > out of hand as "manipulative".
                  >
                  > 'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!
                  >
                  > Your 'assessment' is still requested!
                  >
                  > So far, you have 'assessed' only the
                  > other 'assessors'.
                  >
                  > > <<Good grief!
                  > >
                  > > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
                  > > say to Charlie Brown when
                  > > he says "Good Grief?"
                  > >
                  > > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
                  > >
                  > > ~~freyja
                  >
                  > Projections noted!
                  >
                  >
                  > ==Gene Poole==
                • sandeep
                  Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion versus shame, needing a context to reply
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                    Deception,
                     
                    manipulations,
                     
                    modus-operandi,
                     
                    guilt,
                     
                    intentions,
                     
                    canniness deciphering through canniness,
                     
                    true compassion versus shame,
                     
                    needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                     
                     
                     
                    ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                     
                     
                    The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                     
                    It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                     
                    The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                     
                    Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                     
                     
                     
                    If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                     
                     
                    The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                     
                    Thank you Melody
                    Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                     
                     
                    Nina, what was my answer?
                     
                    Nothing.Or not in words.
                     
                    I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                     
                    Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                     
                    I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                     
                    If they do.
                     
                    Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                    It has got uploaded to a few more.
                    Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                     
                    To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                    Hence decided the List route.
                     
                     
                     
                    Bob,.............Yes.
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    And Freyja,.................:-)
                     
                    As you see, a live display of.........an arriving moment,................the immediate rising of a "what else is there to that moment".
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Melody" <melodyande@...>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 05:36 AM
                    Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

                    >
                    > > >
                    > > > What would you Nina, like to
                    answer her?
                    > >
                    > > No, no, you posted the original, please
                    do go first as
                    > > regards what you would like to answer her.
                    > >
                    > > Nina
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Here....I'll
                    start.
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Pallavi,
                    >
                    > The reason why
                    some kids are concerned with
                    > flavors of ice cream, while other kids
                    are
                    > concerned with surviving
                    >
                    > can be found within the
                    question itself:
                    > the word "other".
                    >
                    > As long as some
                    people are regarded as
                    > "not us", they will need to keep
                    scratching
                    > and clawing for their physical
                    survival.
                  • Jason Fishman
                    sandeep wrote:Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
                      Deception,
                       
                      manipulations,
                       
                      modus-operandi,
                       
                      guilt,
                       
                      intentions,
                       
                      canniness deciphering through canniness,
                       
                      true compassion versus shame,
                       
                      needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                       
                      ___ Yup all this on a meditation group, none the less. Simply ironic.
                       
                      ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                       
                       
                      The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                       
                      It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                       
                      The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                       
                      Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                       
                      __ I think it's essentially that way for alot of people or maybe even ALL people. The driving question "why" moves people daily.
                       
                      If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                       
                      __ As far as the answer, a ditto from me on Melody's post.
                       
                      The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                       
                      Thank you Melody
                      Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                       
                       
                      Nina, what was my answer?
                       
                      Nothing.Or not in words.
                       
                      I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                       
                      Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                       
                      I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                       
                      If they do.
                       
                      ___ Moving words, Moreso then the presentation.
                       
                      Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                      It has got uploaded to a few more.
                      Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                       
                      ___ Not really, I'm not on many to take note. Your post would have gotten picked apart on most of the others, if it hadn't simply been somewhat ignored. The real problem is, it's not MY problem. Non-dual or religious schema aside.
                       
                      To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                      Hence decided the List route.
                       
                      __ Makes sense. I was curious if there was an instinct that there might be people more moved to write thier hearts here, then say over at the ranch. Not important just curious.
                       
                      I tend to think there is a great deal of dishonesty, here, there and everywhere. I think there is a buch of liars in among self-inquirers, among the politics of social behavior, I think it's not MY problem, knowing full well whats at play, is the biggest lie one can tell, along with playing out that lie as it trickles through the world.
                       
                      Since the issue was brought up as to intention here, I really could give a crap where it came from. Only that it's truthful, that it is what everyone deals with, whittingly or not, daily. Unless of course one is in a coma ;-)
                       
                      Do I think this has been going on for centuries? yup!
                       
                      Do I think it has gotten better since the cavemen? Absolutely no doubt, it has. Much farther away we are then survival of the fittest. I really don't have to do much and someone somewhere will "help" me out. Which at some point will be my reality, if I live that long.
                       
                      I typically see a continued clawing at the bounderies that keep us at odds, that keep this play of money/stuff/power, deforrestation, sucking up natural resources (irresponsibly), screwing up the enviroment, etc. etc. We have tons more to learn, no doubt...Hopefully we KEEP trying at it, trying to be more honest, more in tune with what keeps us living "creatures" on this planet. There is one thing for certain to me is I'm gonna die as a human body, best live as freely as a human body as I can (as responsibly as I can), without hindering "other" human bodies desire to live as well. Otherwise we mine as well blow the whole damn place up!
                       
                      YEA, YEA... I've heard it said a billion times too... And so it goes...
                       
                      Peace and Love


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                    • Nina
                      ... Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to my simple question. All from your initial turning of that question back around on me. If you wonder why
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                        <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                        > Deception,
                        >
                        > manipulations,
                        >
                        > modus-operandi,
                        >
                        > guilt,
                        >
                        > intentions,
                        >
                        > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                        >
                        > true compassion versus shame,
                        >
                        > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.

                        Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to
                        my simple question. All from your initial turning
                        of that question back around on me. If you wonder
                        why that is, you might look to why you felt you
                        had to hide your answer and could not write it
                        flat-out as an accompaniment to your original post.
                        Even saying, "Nothing. Or, not in words," would have
                        sufficed.

                        We weren't replying to Pallavi, as you had to. We were
                        replying to your post, which you did not want to
                        take responsibility for. Your choice, but don't go
                        berating us for a perception of heartlessness.
                        It was a psychological game, where the
                        question is offered up as a way to force the outing
                        of another's strategy, and where you, and anyone
                        who expressed a heartrend or an appropriate
                        'what is arising' answer, would win. Sandeep, from
                        what I have seen of you on these lists, you are
                        way too smart to not realize this action.

                        Pretty much, you replied 'as expected'...
                        from the 'high horse'... after everyone else
                        had 'stuck their horse necks out'... and with
                        the summary dismissal of everyone else's
                        'replies'.

                        Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                        horse shit and helpfulness.

                        Have the nicest of days, really.

                        Nina

                        > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                        using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                        that is savy young mind at work.
                        >
                        > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                        >
                        > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                        it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                        someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                        hungry, and with my Papa".
                        >
                        > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                        be this way?"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                        articulate it,..........do so.
                        >
                        >
                        > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                        width.
                        >
                        > Thank you Melody
                        > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                        respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                        >
                        >
                        > Nina, what was my answer?
                        >
                        > Nothing. Or not in words.
                        >
                        > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                        >
                        > Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                        >
                        > I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the
                        words to arise in that moment.
                        >
                        > If they do.
                      • wrmspirit@aol.com
                        Bandwidth doesn t discriminate between horse shit and helpfulness. Have the nicest of days, really. Nina The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                          Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                          horse shit and helpfulness.

                          Have the nicest of days, really.

                          Nina


                          The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a constipated horse who cares not that another may step in it.......For the fly it becomes attractive, for the shoe, a nuisance, for the earth, fertilizer...
                        • sandeep
                          ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                            To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question



                            > Have the nicest of days, really.
                            >
                            > Nina


                            Thank you Nina.

                            Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                          • Nina
                            ... I d probably give her a hug and tell her I don t have an answer. Nina
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                              <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
                              > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                              > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Have the nicest of days, really.
                              > >
                              > > Nina
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you Nina.
                              >
                              > Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?

                              I'd probably give her a hug and tell her I don't have an answer.

                              Nina
                            • sandeep
                              ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM
                                Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question

                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                > <
                                face=Arial size=2>sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > >
                                From: "Nina" <
                                murrkis@y...>
                                > > To:
                                <
                                meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25
                                PM
                                > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's
                                question
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > 
                                > > > Have
                                the nicest of days, really.
                                > > >
                                > > > Nina
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thank you Nina.
                                > >
                                > > Do
                                you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                                >
                                > I'd probably give her a
                                hug and tell her I don't have an answer.
                                >
                                > Nina
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                Thank you.
                                 
                                 
                              • Gene Poole
                                ... between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... No? Think again, wise one. On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                  >sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

                                  > Deception,
                                  >
                                  > manipulations,
                                  >
                                  > modus-operandi,
                                  >
                                  > guilt,
                                  >
                                  > intentions,
                                  >
                                  > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                  >
                                  > true compassion versus shame,
                                  >
                                  > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast
                                  between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                                  >
                                  > It is not a bewildered presentation.

                                  No?

                                  Think again, wise one.

                                  On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                  posts what is claimed to be a presentation
                                  composed by a 12 YO girl; and this becomes
                                  an issue in itself, which it should be.

                                  Sandeep, what is going on with you? Do you
                                  imagine that you can or do control how any
                                  posting is received?

                                  Do you imagine that responses which are at
                                  variance with what you want to hear, are somehow
                                  indicative of flaws or shortcomings in the respondent?

                                  My comment was that I have no proof that this
                                  PP was actually made by a 12 YO girl; and that is
                                  still an issue for me. I have no proof that you have
                                  'hugged her' as she experienced her perplexity.

                                  Frankly, as seen from here, the issue of 'what you
                                  (Sandeep) are up to, is an important one.

                                  Are you trying to bring up in the reader, resonance
                                  with the suffering of the endangered and deprived?

                                  I am sorry to say, that no such effort is required in
                                  my case. I am fully 'resonant' with the plight of the
                                  suffering innocents of this world. I am 'sorry to say',
                                  for the simple reason that I wish that I too were 'innocent';
                                  but, it is too late for me. I may not be 'innocent' in the
                                  same way as the putative suffering 12 YO girl, but neither
                                  am I 'guilty' of causing her any suffering.

                                  So what the hell is up with you, Sandeep? Where is your
                                  usual 'doo be doo be doo' non-attachment. and why do
                                  you now hold everyone to your unstated standards of
                                  morality?

                                  These are serious questions from me, Sandeep; please
                                  let me know. Please post your answer here.

                                  12YO girls... kittens, puppies, dead babies and ice cream;
                                  are those REALLY the imagery which are relevant to a 12YO
                                  girl, in a 3rd world country?

                                  Thank you...

                                  ==Gene Poole==
                                • Onniko
                                  ... using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... it, ..........where,........ in her words if I am
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                    <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                    > Deception,
                                    >
                                    > manipulations,
                                    >
                                    > modus-operandi,
                                    >
                                    > guilt,
                                    >
                                    > intentions,
                                    >
                                    > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                    >
                                    > true compassion versus shame,
                                    >
                                    > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                                    using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                                    that is savy young mind at work.
                                    >
                                    > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                                    >
                                    > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                                    it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                                    someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                                    hungry, and with my Papa".
                                    >
                                    > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                                    be this way?"
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                                    articulate it,..........do so.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                                    width.
                                    >
                                    > Thank you Melody
                                    > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                                    respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Nina, what was my answer?
                                    >
                                    > Nothing.Or not in words.
                                    >
                                    > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                    >

                                    *v* Oh? Are you saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                    personally know and who was crying over the children who did
                                    not have peace and creature comforts?

                                    That surprizes me because I've seen many children around that age
                                    who have made art of the public appeals variety and they were as far
                                    from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a
                                    cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                    felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see
                                    the injustice that they so recently learned to see.

                                    Their feeling for the children they depicted was never sorrow,
                                    but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                    something they felt the old people in power needed to
                                    be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                    an insult to their intelligence, or a typical adult
                                    brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                    response to what they felt was their very insightful media efforts.

                                    Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads in here
                                    I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting that
                                    thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                    is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                    point while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                    the question was smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                    whereas so often the authority method of script turns people
                                    off. Nice presentation, Pallavi.
                                  • sandeep
                                    ... From: Onniko To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM Subject: [Meditation Society
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Onniko" <onniko@...>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM
                                      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question


                                      > >
                                      > > I just held Pallavi in
                                      my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > *v* Oh? Are you
                                      saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                      > personally know and who
                                      was crying over the children who did
                                      > not have peace and creature
                                      comforts?
                                       
                                      Yes.
                                      And it is more about the consequences for children caught in war zones and conflict situation, rather than of endemic deprivations.

                                      >
                                      > That surprizes me because I've seen many
                                      children around that age  who have made art of the public appeals variety and they >were as far  from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                      >
                                      felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see the injustice that they so recently learned to see.
                                      >
                                      > Their feeling for the children they depicted was
                                      never sorrow, but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                      >
                                      something they felt the old people in power needed to be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                      > an insult to their intelligence, or a
                                      typical adult brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                      > response to what they felt was their very insightful media
                                      efforts.
                                       
                                       
                                      That indeed is also a typical response.
                                       
                                       
                                      In this case, it was different.
                                       

                                      >
                                      > Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads
                                      in here
                                      > I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting
                                      that
                                      > thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                      >
                                      is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                      > point
                                      while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                      > the question was
                                      smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                      > whereas so often the authority
                                      method of script turns people
                                      > off. Nice presentation,
                                      Pallavi.
                                       
                                       
                                      No Pallavi is not subbed to this List or any List for that matter.
                                       
                                      I will convey your thoughts to her.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       

                                       
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