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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

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  • Jason Fishman
    Bruce Morgen wrote: Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep,Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you wouldcare to share your answer to Pallavi s
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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      Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
      Nina wrote:
      Hello, Sandeep,
      
      Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
      care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
      
      In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
      However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
      conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
      in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
      
      What moved you to post it here?
                
      I thought Nina might be moved.
      
      Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
      with the world right now.
      
      What would you Nina, like to answer her?
            
      No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
      regards what you would like to answer her.
      
      Nina
      
      
      Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
      
      Peace and Love
          
      Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
      taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
      uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
      then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
      remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
      another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
      I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
      it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
      such a place.
      
      
        

      I personally don't see this
      girl as "bewildered" at all.
      Like most bright, computer-
      equipped kids of her years,
      she's far too savvy to not
      be aware of the age-old
      haves vs. have-nots
      dichotomy that has
      characterized human history
      from the recorded gitgo.

      That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"


      Sandeep is also very canny
      -- he's presenting this as
      a guilt trip to ellicit
      sympathy from materially
      comfortable middle-class
      folks who, by dint of
      cultural and/or hormonal
      conditioning, are attracted
      to little children.  There
      is a big difference between
      guilt/shame-provoked
      sentiment and true compassion,
      which isn't in the least bit
      sentimental and is never the
      result of deft emotional
      manipulation.


      Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves? You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate. It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result. Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental. Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives. Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

      There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

      Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

      Peace and Love


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    • Gene Poole
      ... It appears to me that this powerpoint file was NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may have been involved in its production. I agree with Nina and
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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        > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:

        > > > > > Hello, Sandeep,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
        > > > > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
        > > > > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
        > > > > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
        > > > > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > What moved you to post it here?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I thought Nina might be moved.
        > > >
        > > > Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered
        > > > with the world right now.
        > > >
        > > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
        > >
        > > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
        > > regards what you would like to answer her.
        > >
        > > Nina
        > >
        > >
        > > Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
        > >
        > > Peace and Love
        >
        > Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
        > taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
        > uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
        > then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
        > remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
        > another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
        > I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
        > it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
        > such a place.
        >
        >
        > Nina

        It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
        NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
        have been involved in its production.

        I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
        although some discussion has been forthcoming,
        my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
        manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
        already a context within the 'reader' which will be
        prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
        has Jason.

        Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

        Dead babies? Where are the
        dead puppies and dead kittens?

        And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?

        Good grief!


        ==Gene Poole==
      • freyjartist@aol.com
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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          <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
          NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
          have been involved in its production.

          I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
          although some discussion has been forthcoming,
          my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
          manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
          already a context within the 'reader' which will be
          prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
          has Jason.

          Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

          Dead babies? Where are the
          dead puppies and dead kittens?

          And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>


          Drunk?   Why? because
          you're not agreeing with
          my assessment?  Which does
          not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
          Not drunk, just getting radical here
          today.

          The thing is manipulative
          IF you see it that way,
          that's all, but it doesn't
          mean it absolutely is.  The other thing
          is, it depends who is viewing
          the thing, who it is being shown to,
          what are the qualities of
          the demographic sample.

          People on this list may have differing
          reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
          which I am sure is occuring in many of the
          members,
          there is no need to dismiss this piece
          out of hand as "manipulative".


          <<Good grief!

          Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
          say to Charlie Brown when
          he says "Good Grief?"

          "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"

          ~~freyja


          ==Gene Poole==



        • Jason Fishman
          Gene Poole wrote: It appears to me that this powerpoint file was NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may have been involved in its
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Gene Poole <gene_poole@...> wrote:

            It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
            NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
            have been involved in its production.
             
            ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the intent.

            I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
            although some discussion has been forthcoming,
            my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
            manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
            already a context within the 'reader' which will be
            prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
            has Jason.
             
            ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail, that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.

            Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

            Dead babies? Where are the
            dead puppies and dead kittens?
             
            ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.) Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well. Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.



            Peace and Love


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          • Gene Poole
            ... You call that an assessment ? ... A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated. ... Absolutely was not an attribute assigned by me! (straw-man argument
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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              >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)

              Gene Had written:

              > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
              > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
              > have been involved in its production.
              >
              > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
              > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
              > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
              > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
              > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
              > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
              > has Jason.
              >
              > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
              >
              > Dead babies? Where are the
              > dead puppies and dead kittens?
              >
              > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
              >

              Freya responded:

              > Drunk? Why? because
              > you're not agreeing with
              > my assessment?

              You call that an 'assessment'?

              > Which does
              > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
              > Not drunk, just getting radical here
              > today.

              A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.

              > The thing is manipulative
              > IF you see it that way,
              > that's all, but it doesn't
              > mean it absolutely is.

              'Absolutely' was not an attribute
              assigned by me!

              (straw-man argument fails)

              > The other thing
              > is, it depends who is viewing
              > the thing, who it is being shown to,
              > what are the qualities of
              > the demographic sample.

              Well, duh!

              (appeal to popularity argument fails)

              > People on this list may have differing
              > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
              > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
              > members,
              > there is no need to dismiss this piece
              > out of hand as "manipulative".

              'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!

              Your 'assessment' is still requested!

              So far, you have 'assessed' only the
              other 'assessors'.

              > <<Good grief!
              >
              > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
              > say to Charlie Brown when
              > he says "Good Grief?"
              >
              > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
              >
              > ~~freyja

              Projections noted!


              ==Gene Poole==
            • Bruce Morgen
              Jason Fishman wrote: Bruce Morgen wrote: Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep, Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would care to share your
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                Jason Fishman wrote:


                Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                Nina wrote:
                Hello, Sandeep,
                
                Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
                care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
                
                In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
                However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
                conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
                in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
                
                What moved you to post it here?
                          
                I thought Nina might be moved.
                
                Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
                with the world right now.
                
                What would you Nina, like to answer her?
                      
                No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
                regards what you would like to answer her.
                
                Nina
                
                
                Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
                
                Peace and Love
                    
                Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
                taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
                uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
                then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
                remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
                another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
                I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
                it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
                such a place.
                
                
                  

                I personally don't see this
                girl as "bewildered" at all.
                Like most bright, computer-
                equipped kids of her years,
                she's far too savvy to not
                be aware of the age-old
                haves vs. have-nots
                dichotomy that has
                characterized human history
                from the recorded gitgo.

                That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"

                It doesn't take much in the
                way of "gumption" to
                assemble a PowerPoint show
                and ask a question with a
                very well-known (if not
                terribly gratifying" answer.


                Sandeep is also very canny
                -- he's presenting this as
                a guilt trip to ellicit
                sympathy from materially
                comfortable middle-class
                folks who, by dint of
                cultural and/or hormonal
                conditioning, are attracted
                to little children.  There
                is a big difference between
                guilt/shame-provoked
                sentiment and true compassion,
                which isn't in the least bit
                sentimental and is never the
                result of deft emotional
                manipulation.

                Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves?


                Compassion is the human
                body/mind's expression of
                non-dual realization.  It
                has nothing to do with
                sentiment at all, and its
                form are myriad and often
                (if superficially) seem to
                be downright unkind.

                You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate.

                Compassion has nothing
                whatsoever to do with
                appearances.

                It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result.

                Karma is karma, there will
                always be causes and
                effects.  If the planet
                embraces a generous ilk of
                Fabian Socialism and
                strives mightily to bridge
                the have/have-not disparity,
                that too will have effects,
                and undoubtedly some of them
                will be unanticipated by the
                idealists who long for such
                a paradigm shift.

                Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental.

                Sorry, Jason, I don't get
                what you mean by the above.

                Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives.

                You wanting or not wanting it
                is irrelevant, it's simply the
                way it continues to be.  Given
                the burgeoning growth of
                middle classes all over the
                world in the last century
                (disproportionately in North
                America, western Europe, and
                northeast Asia, but I digress),
                there are probably more "haves"
                by percentage than at any other
                time in human history.  Of
                course this serves to underline
                the bereft state of the (still
                billions of) "have-nots," but
                the situation is improving at
                may well be the limit of a
                planet-sized population's
                ability to endure and integrate
                change.

                Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

                Yes, something that Sandeep's
                contrivance doesn't address.

                There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

                All that has to happen is a
                broad political consensus
                among the "haves" for the
                sharing of unneeded resources --
                a worthy goal, but not any easy
                one!

                Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

                Whatever, we each in our own
                way took Sandeepji's bait --
                you to express generosity with
                (your and other folks') material
                wealth, me to point out some
                deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
                part.  The meditative state is
                one of equanimity to either ilk
                of response -- creation is
                perfect with or without human
                material generosity (a perogative
                of the relatively wealthy) and
                selfishness (if not overdone, a
                simple survival trait) or, for
                that matter, the ancient (but
                merely apparent) dichotomy
                between the two.

                Peace and Love



              • Jason Fishman
                Bruce Morgen wrote: Whatever, we each in our own way took Sandeepji s bait -- you to express generosity with (your and other folks ) material
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                  Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                   
                  Whatever, we each in our own
                  way took Sandeepji's bait --
                  you to express generosity with
                  (your and other folks') material
                  wealth, me to point out some
                  deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
                  part. 
                   
                  So, there is bait? A game between the haves and have nots can easily be taken out in football field or any other sports venue, which doesn't neccesarily have to envolve weapons of the haves protecting their goods from the have nots. If it's entertainment one see's when watching people dying long slow and very painful deaths then that seems like it can be avoided. I'd be hard pressed to honestly say that human life conditions, over the centuries hasn't gotten "better" through all this turmoil. Although I'm certain, looking through non-dualist eyes, sees this as hoopla. Sandeep has offered up a group that appeals to the thoughts of a better governing body (if for no other reason then his own amusment) which has often sparked some pretty wonderfully thought out debates or bait, as the case may be.
                   
                  The meditative state is
                  one of equanimity to either ilk
                  of response -- creation is
                  perfect with or without human
                  material generosity (a perogative
                  of the relatively wealthy) and
                  selfishness (if not overdone, a
                  simple survival trait) or, for
                  that matter, the ancient (but
                  merely apparent) dichotomy
                  between the two.
                   
                  Great, I'm certainly glad that you have the meditative state down to a science, material generosity (in the aspect of food and viable shelter) isn't even where I was looking. If anywhere it would be in exemplifying a generosity between the local haves and have nots.
                   
                  The Global society has been born with the advent of technologies to traverse distances in shorter periods of time and carrier more people. We basicly use this technology to trade goods travel or go off to war, yet at home (the source of those goods, even in simple concept) is how we go about our daily lives. I'm addressing what can be done at home (so to speak) as to have a system that works a little better (more even keeled) that is more self reliant. It's very apparent that all one has to offer is ablility to enjoy life without hinderence of food loss, shelter dismantaling, and a way to keep things somewhat balanced. To you there may be no way, everything is functioning just fine, that is your contribution as noted, within your ability.
                   
                  Peace and love


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                • Melody
                  ... Here....I ll start. Dear Pallavi, The reason why some kids are concerned with flavors of ice cream, while other kids are concerned with surviving can be
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                    > >
                    > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
                    >
                    > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
                    > regards what you would like to answer her.
                    >
                    > Nina



                    Here....I'll start.


                    Dear Pallavi,

                    The reason why some kids are concerned with
                    flavors of ice cream, while other kids are
                    concerned with surviving

                    can be found within the question itself:
                    the word "other".

                    As long as some people are regarded as
                    "not us", they will need to keep scratching
                    and clawing for their physical survival.
                  • Onniko
                    ... intent. ... that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well. ... only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                      <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                      > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                      > have been involved in its production.
                      >
                      > ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the
                      intent.
                      >
                      > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                      > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                      > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                      > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                      > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                      > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                      > has Jason.
                      >
                      > ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail,
                      that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.
                      >
                      > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                      >
                      > Dead babies? Where are the
                      > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                      >
                      > ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's
                      only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers.
                      The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we
                      have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of
                      suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to
                      reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation
                      just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven
                      year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.)

                      *v* That's a good point, Jason. It's actually very typical
                      of that age group as their creative efforts are often
                      directed to emotional areas of life. The concrete is being
                      expanded to the abstract and the area of compassion for
                      others is being explored.


                      Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for
                      help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then
                      the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well.
                      Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Peace and Love
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
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                      > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                    • carolina112900
                      Gene. What can I do if in this case you are mistaking sanity for drunkenness? Nothing. Think what you want, OK? ~~freyja
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                        Gene.

                        What can I do if in this
                        case you are mistaking sanity
                        for drunkenness?

                        Nothing.

                        Think what you want, OK?

                        ~~freyja

                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                        <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                        > >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)
                        >
                        > Gene Had written:
                        >
                        > > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                        > > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                        > > have been involved in its production.
                        > >
                        > > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                        > > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                        > > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                        > > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                        > > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                        > > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                        > > has Jason.
                        > >
                        > > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                        > >
                        > > Dead babies? Where are the
                        > > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                        > >
                        > > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
                        > >
                        >
                        > Freya responded:
                        >
                        > > Drunk? Why? because
                        > > you're not agreeing with
                        > > my assessment?
                        >
                        > You call that an 'assessment'?
                        >
                        > > Which does
                        > > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
                        > > Not drunk, just getting radical here
                        > > today.
                        >
                        > A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.
                        >
                        > > The thing is manipulative
                        > > IF you see it that way,
                        > > that's all, but it doesn't
                        > > mean it absolutely is.
                        >
                        > 'Absolutely' was not an attribute
                        > assigned by me!
                        >
                        > (straw-man argument fails)
                        >
                        > > The other thing
                        > > is, it depends who is viewing
                        > > the thing, who it is being shown to,
                        > > what are the qualities of
                        > > the demographic sample.
                        >
                        > Well, duh!
                        >
                        > (appeal to popularity argument fails)
                        >
                        > > People on this list may have differing
                        > > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
                        > > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
                        > > members,
                        > > there is no need to dismiss this piece
                        > > out of hand as "manipulative".
                        >
                        > 'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!
                        >
                        > Your 'assessment' is still requested!
                        >
                        > So far, you have 'assessed' only the
                        > other 'assessors'.
                        >
                        > > <<Good grief!
                        > >
                        > > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
                        > > say to Charlie Brown when
                        > > he says "Good Grief?"
                        > >
                        > > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
                        > >
                        > > ~~freyja
                        >
                        > Projections noted!
                        >
                        >
                        > ==Gene Poole==
                      • sandeep
                        Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion versus shame, needing a context to reply
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004
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                          Deception,
                           
                          manipulations,
                           
                          modus-operandi,
                           
                          guilt,
                           
                          intentions,
                           
                          canniness deciphering through canniness,
                           
                          true compassion versus shame,
                           
                          needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                           
                           
                           
                          ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                           
                           
                          The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                           
                          It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                           
                          The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                           
                          Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                           
                           
                           
                          If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                           
                           
                          The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                           
                          Thank you Melody
                          Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                           
                           
                          Nina, what was my answer?
                           
                          Nothing.Or not in words.
                           
                          I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                           
                          Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                           
                          I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                           
                          If they do.
                           
                          Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                          It has got uploaded to a few more.
                          Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                           
                          To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                          Hence decided the List route.
                           
                           
                           
                          Bob,.............Yes.
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          And Freyja,.................:-)
                           
                          As you see, a live display of.........an arriving moment,................the immediate rising of a "what else is there to that moment".
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Melody" <melodyande@...>
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 05:36 AM
                          Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > What would you Nina, like to
                          answer her?
                          > >
                          > > No, no, you posted the original, please
                          do go first as
                          > > regards what you would like to answer her.
                          > >
                          > > Nina
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Here....I'll
                          start.
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Pallavi,
                          >
                          > The reason why
                          some kids are concerned with
                          > flavors of ice cream, while other kids
                          are
                          > concerned with surviving
                          >
                          > can be found within the
                          question itself:
                          > the word "other".
                          >
                          > As long as some
                          people are regarded as
                          > "not us", they will need to keep
                          scratching
                          > and clawing for their physical
                          survival.
                        • Jason Fishman
                          sandeep wrote:Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                            sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
                            Deception,
                             
                            manipulations,
                             
                            modus-operandi,
                             
                            guilt,
                             
                            intentions,
                             
                            canniness deciphering through canniness,
                             
                            true compassion versus shame,
                             
                            needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                             
                            ___ Yup all this on a meditation group, none the less. Simply ironic.
                             
                            ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                             
                             
                            The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                             
                            It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                             
                            The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                             
                            Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                             
                            __ I think it's essentially that way for alot of people or maybe even ALL people. The driving question "why" moves people daily.
                             
                            If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                             
                            __ As far as the answer, a ditto from me on Melody's post.
                             
                            The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                             
                            Thank you Melody
                            Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                             
                             
                            Nina, what was my answer?
                             
                            Nothing.Or not in words.
                             
                            I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                             
                            Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                             
                            I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                             
                            If they do.
                             
                            ___ Moving words, Moreso then the presentation.
                             
                            Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                            It has got uploaded to a few more.
                            Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                             
                            ___ Not really, I'm not on many to take note. Your post would have gotten picked apart on most of the others, if it hadn't simply been somewhat ignored. The real problem is, it's not MY problem. Non-dual or religious schema aside.
                             
                            To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                            Hence decided the List route.
                             
                            __ Makes sense. I was curious if there was an instinct that there might be people more moved to write thier hearts here, then say over at the ranch. Not important just curious.
                             
                            I tend to think there is a great deal of dishonesty, here, there and everywhere. I think there is a buch of liars in among self-inquirers, among the politics of social behavior, I think it's not MY problem, knowing full well whats at play, is the biggest lie one can tell, along with playing out that lie as it trickles through the world.
                             
                            Since the issue was brought up as to intention here, I really could give a crap where it came from. Only that it's truthful, that it is what everyone deals with, whittingly or not, daily. Unless of course one is in a coma ;-)
                             
                            Do I think this has been going on for centuries? yup!
                             
                            Do I think it has gotten better since the cavemen? Absolutely no doubt, it has. Much farther away we are then survival of the fittest. I really don't have to do much and someone somewhere will "help" me out. Which at some point will be my reality, if I live that long.
                             
                            I typically see a continued clawing at the bounderies that keep us at odds, that keep this play of money/stuff/power, deforrestation, sucking up natural resources (irresponsibly), screwing up the enviroment, etc. etc. We have tons more to learn, no doubt...Hopefully we KEEP trying at it, trying to be more honest, more in tune with what keeps us living "creatures" on this planet. There is one thing for certain to me is I'm gonna die as a human body, best live as freely as a human body as I can (as responsibly as I can), without hindering "other" human bodies desire to live as well. Otherwise we mine as well blow the whole damn place up!
                             
                            YEA, YEA... I've heard it said a billion times too... And so it goes...
                             
                            Peace and Love


                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                          • Nina
                            ... Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to my simple question. All from your initial turning of that question back around on me. If you wonder why
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                              <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                              > Deception,
                              >
                              > manipulations,
                              >
                              > modus-operandi,
                              >
                              > guilt,
                              >
                              > intentions,
                              >
                              > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                              >
                              > true compassion versus shame,
                              >
                              > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.

                              Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to
                              my simple question. All from your initial turning
                              of that question back around on me. If you wonder
                              why that is, you might look to why you felt you
                              had to hide your answer and could not write it
                              flat-out as an accompaniment to your original post.
                              Even saying, "Nothing. Or, not in words," would have
                              sufficed.

                              We weren't replying to Pallavi, as you had to. We were
                              replying to your post, which you did not want to
                              take responsibility for. Your choice, but don't go
                              berating us for a perception of heartlessness.
                              It was a psychological game, where the
                              question is offered up as a way to force the outing
                              of another's strategy, and where you, and anyone
                              who expressed a heartrend or an appropriate
                              'what is arising' answer, would win. Sandeep, from
                              what I have seen of you on these lists, you are
                              way too smart to not realize this action.

                              Pretty much, you replied 'as expected'...
                              from the 'high horse'... after everyone else
                              had 'stuck their horse necks out'... and with
                              the summary dismissal of everyone else's
                              'replies'.

                              Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                              horse shit and helpfulness.

                              Have the nicest of days, really.

                              Nina

                              > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                              using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                              that is savy young mind at work.
                              >
                              > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                              >
                              > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                              it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                              someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                              hungry, and with my Papa".
                              >
                              > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                              be this way?"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                              articulate it,..........do so.
                              >
                              >
                              > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                              width.
                              >
                              > Thank you Melody
                              > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                              respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                              >
                              >
                              > Nina, what was my answer?
                              >
                              > Nothing. Or not in words.
                              >
                              > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                              >
                              > Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                              >
                              > I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the
                              words to arise in that moment.
                              >
                              > If they do.
                            • wrmspirit@aol.com
                              Bandwidth doesn t discriminate between horse shit and helpfulness. Have the nicest of days, really. Nina The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                                horse shit and helpfulness.

                                Have the nicest of days, really.

                                Nina


                                The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a constipated horse who cares not that another may step in it.......For the fly it becomes attractive, for the shoe, a nuisance, for the earth, fertilizer...
                              • sandeep
                                ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                                  To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                                  Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question



                                  > Have the nicest of days, really.
                                  >
                                  > Nina


                                  Thank you Nina.

                                  Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                                • Nina
                                  ... I d probably give her a hug and tell her I don t have an answer. Nina
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                    <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
                                    > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                                    > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Have the nicest of days, really.
                                    > >
                                    > > Nina
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thank you Nina.
                                    >
                                    > Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?

                                    I'd probably give her a hug and tell her I don't have an answer.

                                    Nina
                                  • sandeep
                                    ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM
                                      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question

                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                      > <
                                      face=Arial size=2>sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > >
                                      From: "Nina" <
                                      murrkis@y...>
                                      > > To:
                                      <
                                      meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25
                                      PM
                                      > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's
                                      question
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > 
                                      > > > Have
                                      the nicest of days, really.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Nina
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you Nina.
                                      > >
                                      > > Do
                                      you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                                      >
                                      > I'd probably give her a
                                      hug and tell her I don't have an answer.
                                      >
                                      > Nina
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      Thank you.
                                       
                                       
                                    • Gene Poole
                                      ... between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... No? Think again, wise one. On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                        >sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

                                        > Deception,
                                        >
                                        > manipulations,
                                        >
                                        > modus-operandi,
                                        >
                                        > guilt,
                                        >
                                        > intentions,
                                        >
                                        > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                        >
                                        > true compassion versus shame,
                                        >
                                        > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast
                                        between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                                        >
                                        > It is not a bewildered presentation.

                                        No?

                                        Think again, wise one.

                                        On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                        posts what is claimed to be a presentation
                                        composed by a 12 YO girl; and this becomes
                                        an issue in itself, which it should be.

                                        Sandeep, what is going on with you? Do you
                                        imagine that you can or do control how any
                                        posting is received?

                                        Do you imagine that responses which are at
                                        variance with what you want to hear, are somehow
                                        indicative of flaws or shortcomings in the respondent?

                                        My comment was that I have no proof that this
                                        PP was actually made by a 12 YO girl; and that is
                                        still an issue for me. I have no proof that you have
                                        'hugged her' as she experienced her perplexity.

                                        Frankly, as seen from here, the issue of 'what you
                                        (Sandeep) are up to, is an important one.

                                        Are you trying to bring up in the reader, resonance
                                        with the suffering of the endangered and deprived?

                                        I am sorry to say, that no such effort is required in
                                        my case. I am fully 'resonant' with the plight of the
                                        suffering innocents of this world. I am 'sorry to say',
                                        for the simple reason that I wish that I too were 'innocent';
                                        but, it is too late for me. I may not be 'innocent' in the
                                        same way as the putative suffering 12 YO girl, but neither
                                        am I 'guilty' of causing her any suffering.

                                        So what the hell is up with you, Sandeep? Where is your
                                        usual 'doo be doo be doo' non-attachment. and why do
                                        you now hold everyone to your unstated standards of
                                        morality?

                                        These are serious questions from me, Sandeep; please
                                        let me know. Please post your answer here.

                                        12YO girls... kittens, puppies, dead babies and ice cream;
                                        are those REALLY the imagery which are relevant to a 12YO
                                        girl, in a 3rd world country?

                                        Thank you...

                                        ==Gene Poole==
                                      • Onniko
                                        ... using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... it, ..........where,........ in her words if I am
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                          <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                          > Deception,
                                          >
                                          > manipulations,
                                          >
                                          > modus-operandi,
                                          >
                                          > guilt,
                                          >
                                          > intentions,
                                          >
                                          > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                          >
                                          > true compassion versus shame,
                                          >
                                          > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                                          using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                                          that is savy young mind at work.
                                          >
                                          > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                                          >
                                          > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                                          it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                                          someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                                          hungry, and with my Papa".
                                          >
                                          > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                                          be this way?"
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                                          articulate it,..........do so.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                                          width.
                                          >
                                          > Thank you Melody
                                          > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                                          respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Nina, what was my answer?
                                          >
                                          > Nothing.Or not in words.
                                          >
                                          > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                          >

                                          *v* Oh? Are you saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                          personally know and who was crying over the children who did
                                          not have peace and creature comforts?

                                          That surprizes me because I've seen many children around that age
                                          who have made art of the public appeals variety and they were as far
                                          from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a
                                          cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                          felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see
                                          the injustice that they so recently learned to see.

                                          Their feeling for the children they depicted was never sorrow,
                                          but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                          something they felt the old people in power needed to
                                          be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                          an insult to their intelligence, or a typical adult
                                          brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                          response to what they felt was their very insightful media efforts.

                                          Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads in here
                                          I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting that
                                          thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                          is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                          point while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                          the question was smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                          whereas so often the authority method of script turns people
                                          off. Nice presentation, Pallavi.
                                        • sandeep
                                          ... From: Onniko To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM Subject: [Meditation Society
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 3, 2004
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                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Onniko" <onniko@...>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM
                                            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question


                                            > >
                                            > > I just held Pallavi in
                                            my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > *v* Oh? Are you
                                            saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                            > personally know and who
                                            was crying over the children who did
                                            > not have peace and creature
                                            comforts?
                                             
                                            Yes.
                                            And it is more about the consequences for children caught in war zones and conflict situation, rather than of endemic deprivations.

                                            >
                                            > That surprizes me because I've seen many
                                            children around that age  who have made art of the public appeals variety and they >were as far  from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                            >
                                            felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see the injustice that they so recently learned to see.
                                            >
                                            > Their feeling for the children they depicted was
                                            never sorrow, but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                            >
                                            something they felt the old people in power needed to be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                            > an insult to their intelligence, or a
                                            typical adult brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                            > response to what they felt was their very insightful media
                                            efforts.
                                             
                                             
                                            That indeed is also a typical response.
                                             
                                             
                                            In this case, it was different.
                                             

                                            >
                                            > Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads
                                            in here
                                            > I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting
                                            that
                                            > thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                            >
                                            is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                            > point
                                            while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                            > the question was
                                            smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                            > whereas so often the authority
                                            method of script turns people
                                            > off. Nice presentation,
                                            Pallavi.
                                             
                                             
                                            No Pallavi is not subbed to this List or any List for that matter.
                                             
                                            I will convey your thoughts to her.
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             

                                             
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