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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

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  • Bruce Morgen
    Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep, Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would care to share your answer to Pallavi s question. In your file description, you
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 2 9:57 AM
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      Nina wrote:
      Hello, Sandeep,
      
      Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
      care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
      
      In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
      However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
      conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
      in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
      
      What moved you to post it here?
                
      
      I thought Nina might be moved.
      
      Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
      with the world right now.
      
      What would you Nina, like to answer her?
            
      No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
      regards what you would like to answer her.
      
      Nina
      
      
      Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
      
      Peace and Love
          
      Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
      taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
      uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
      then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
      remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
      another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
      I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
      it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
      such a place.
      
      
        
      I personally don't see this
      girl as "bewildered" at all.
      Like most bright, computer-
      equipped kids of her years,
      she's far too savvy to not
      be aware of the age-old
      haves vs. have-nots
      dichotomy that has
      characterized human history
      from the recorded gitgo.

      Sandeep is also very canny
      -- he's presenting this as
      a guilt trip to ellicit
      sympathy from materially
      comfortable middle-class
      folks who, by dint of
      cultural and/or hormonal
      conditioning, are attracted
      to little children.  There
      is a big difference between
      guilt/shame-provoked
      sentiment and true compassion,
      which isn't in the least bit
      sentimental and is never the
      result of deft emotional
      manipulation.

    • Jason Fishman
      Bruce Morgen wrote: Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep,Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you wouldcare to share your answer to Pallavi s
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 2 10:50 AM
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        Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
        Nina wrote:
        Hello, Sandeep,
        
        Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
        care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
        
        In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
        However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
        conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
        in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
        
        What moved you to post it here?
                  
        I thought Nina might be moved.
        
        Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
        with the world right now.
        
        What would you Nina, like to answer her?
              
        No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
        regards what you would like to answer her.
        
        Nina
        
        
        Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
        
        Peace and Love
            
        Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
        taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
        uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
        then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
        remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
        another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
        I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
        it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
        such a place.
        
        
          

        I personally don't see this
        girl as "bewildered" at all.
        Like most bright, computer-
        equipped kids of her years,
        she's far too savvy to not
        be aware of the age-old
        haves vs. have-nots
        dichotomy that has
        characterized human history
        from the recorded gitgo.

        That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"


        Sandeep is also very canny
        -- he's presenting this as
        a guilt trip to ellicit
        sympathy from materially
        comfortable middle-class
        folks who, by dint of
        cultural and/or hormonal
        conditioning, are attracted
        to little children.  There
        is a big difference between
        guilt/shame-provoked
        sentiment and true compassion,
        which isn't in the least bit
        sentimental and is never the
        result of deft emotional
        manipulation.


        Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves? You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate. It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result. Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental. Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives. Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

        There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

        Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

        Peace and Love


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      • Gene Poole
        ... It appears to me that this powerpoint file was NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may have been involved in its production. I agree with Nina and
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 2 11:41 AM
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          > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:

          > > > > > Hello, Sandeep,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
          > > > > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
          > > > > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
          > > > > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
          > > > > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > What moved you to post it here?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I thought Nina might be moved.
          > > >
          > > > Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered
          > > > with the world right now.
          > > >
          > > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
          > >
          > > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
          > > regards what you would like to answer her.
          > >
          > > Nina
          > >
          > >
          > > Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
          > >
          > > Peace and Love
          >
          > Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
          > taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
          > uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
          > then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
          > remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
          > another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
          > I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
          > it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
          > such a place.
          >
          >
          > Nina

          It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
          NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
          have been involved in its production.

          I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
          although some discussion has been forthcoming,
          my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
          manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
          already a context within the 'reader' which will be
          prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
          has Jason.

          Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

          Dead babies? Where are the
          dead puppies and dead kittens?

          And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?

          Good grief!


          ==Gene Poole==
        • freyjartist@aol.com
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 2 12:02 PM
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            <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
            NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
            have been involved in its production.

            I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
            although some discussion has been forthcoming,
            my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
            manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
            already a context within the 'reader' which will be
            prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
            has Jason.

            Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

            Dead babies? Where are the
            dead puppies and dead kittens?

            And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>


            Drunk?   Why? because
            you're not agreeing with
            my assessment?  Which does
            not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
            Not drunk, just getting radical here
            today.

            The thing is manipulative
            IF you see it that way,
            that's all, but it doesn't
            mean it absolutely is.  The other thing
            is, it depends who is viewing
            the thing, who it is being shown to,
            what are the qualities of
            the demographic sample.

            People on this list may have differing
            reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
            which I am sure is occuring in many of the
            members,
            there is no need to dismiss this piece
            out of hand as "manipulative".


            <<Good grief!

            Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
            say to Charlie Brown when
            he says "Good Grief?"

            "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"

            ~~freyja


            ==Gene Poole==



          • Jason Fishman
            Gene Poole wrote: It appears to me that this powerpoint file was NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may have been involved in its
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 2 12:18 PM
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              Gene Poole <gene_poole@...> wrote:

              It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
              NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
              have been involved in its production.
               
              ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the intent.

              I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
              although some discussion has been forthcoming,
              my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
              manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
              already a context within the 'reader' which will be
              prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
              has Jason.
               
              ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail, that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.

              Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

              Dead babies? Where are the
              dead puppies and dead kittens?
               
              ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.) Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well. Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.



              Peace and Love


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            • Gene Poole
              ... You call that an assessment ? ... A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated. ... Absolutely was not an attribute assigned by me! (straw-man argument
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2 12:19 PM
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                >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)

                Gene Had written:

                > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                > have been involved in its production.
                >
                > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                > has Jason.
                >
                > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                >
                > Dead babies? Where are the
                > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                >
                > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
                >

                Freya responded:

                > Drunk? Why? because
                > you're not agreeing with
                > my assessment?

                You call that an 'assessment'?

                > Which does
                > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
                > Not drunk, just getting radical here
                > today.

                A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.

                > The thing is manipulative
                > IF you see it that way,
                > that's all, but it doesn't
                > mean it absolutely is.

                'Absolutely' was not an attribute
                assigned by me!

                (straw-man argument fails)

                > The other thing
                > is, it depends who is viewing
                > the thing, who it is being shown to,
                > what are the qualities of
                > the demographic sample.

                Well, duh!

                (appeal to popularity argument fails)

                > People on this list may have differing
                > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
                > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
                > members,
                > there is no need to dismiss this piece
                > out of hand as "manipulative".

                'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!

                Your 'assessment' is still requested!

                So far, you have 'assessed' only the
                other 'assessors'.

                > <<Good grief!
                >
                > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
                > say to Charlie Brown when
                > he says "Good Grief?"
                >
                > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
                >
                > ~~freyja

                Projections noted!


                ==Gene Poole==
              • Bruce Morgen
                Jason Fishman wrote: Bruce Morgen wrote: Nina wrote: Hello, Sandeep, Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would care to share your
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 2 12:30 PM
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                  Jason Fishman wrote:


                  Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                  Nina wrote:
                  Hello, Sandeep,
                  
                  Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
                  care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
                  
                  In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
                  However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
                  conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
                  in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
                  
                  What moved you to post it here?
                            
                  I thought Nina might be moved.
                  
                  Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered 
                  with the world right now.
                  
                  What would you Nina, like to answer her?
                        
                  No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
                  regards what you would like to answer her.
                  
                  Nina
                  
                  
                  Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
                  
                  Peace and Love
                      
                  Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
                  taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
                  uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
                  then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
                  remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
                  another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
                  I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
                  it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
                  such a place.
                  
                  
                    

                  I personally don't see this
                  girl as "bewildered" at all.
                  Like most bright, computer-
                  equipped kids of her years,
                  she's far too savvy to not
                  be aware of the age-old
                  haves vs. have-nots
                  dichotomy that has
                  characterized human history
                  from the recorded gitgo.

                  That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"

                  It doesn't take much in the
                  way of "gumption" to
                  assemble a PowerPoint show
                  and ask a question with a
                  very well-known (if not
                  terribly gratifying" answer.


                  Sandeep is also very canny
                  -- he's presenting this as
                  a guilt trip to ellicit
                  sympathy from materially
                  comfortable middle-class
                  folks who, by dint of
                  cultural and/or hormonal
                  conditioning, are attracted
                  to little children.  There
                  is a big difference between
                  guilt/shame-provoked
                  sentiment and true compassion,
                  which isn't in the least bit
                  sentimental and is never the
                  result of deft emotional
                  manipulation.

                  Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves?


                  Compassion is the human
                  body/mind's expression of
                  non-dual realization.  It
                  has nothing to do with
                  sentiment at all, and its
                  form are myriad and often
                  (if superficially) seem to
                  be downright unkind.

                  You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate.

                  Compassion has nothing
                  whatsoever to do with
                  appearances.

                  It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result.

                  Karma is karma, there will
                  always be causes and
                  effects.  If the planet
                  embraces a generous ilk of
                  Fabian Socialism and
                  strives mightily to bridge
                  the have/have-not disparity,
                  that too will have effects,
                  and undoubtedly some of them
                  will be unanticipated by the
                  idealists who long for such
                  a paradigm shift.

                  Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental.

                  Sorry, Jason, I don't get
                  what you mean by the above.

                  Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives.

                  You wanting or not wanting it
                  is irrelevant, it's simply the
                  way it continues to be.  Given
                  the burgeoning growth of
                  middle classes all over the
                  world in the last century
                  (disproportionately in North
                  America, western Europe, and
                  northeast Asia, but I digress),
                  there are probably more "haves"
                  by percentage than at any other
                  time in human history.  Of
                  course this serves to underline
                  the bereft state of the (still
                  billions of) "have-nots," but
                  the situation is improving at
                  may well be the limit of a
                  planet-sized population's
                  ability to endure and integrate
                  change.

                  Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

                  Yes, something that Sandeep's
                  contrivance doesn't address.

                  There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

                  All that has to happen is a
                  broad political consensus
                  among the "haves" for the
                  sharing of unneeded resources --
                  a worthy goal, but not any easy
                  one!

                  Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

                  Whatever, we each in our own
                  way took Sandeepji's bait --
                  you to express generosity with
                  (your and other folks') material
                  wealth, me to point out some
                  deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
                  part.  The meditative state is
                  one of equanimity to either ilk
                  of response -- creation is
                  perfect with or without human
                  material generosity (a perogative
                  of the relatively wealthy) and
                  selfishness (if not overdone, a
                  simple survival trait) or, for
                  that matter, the ancient (but
                  merely apparent) dichotomy
                  between the two.

                  Peace and Love



                • Jason Fishman
                  Bruce Morgen wrote: Whatever, we each in our own way took Sandeepji s bait -- you to express generosity with (your and other folks ) material
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 2 12:58 PM
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                    Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:
                     
                    Whatever, we each in our own
                    way took Sandeepji's bait --
                    you to express generosity with
                    (your and other folks') material
                    wealth, me to point out some
                    deft game-playing on Sandeepji's
                    part. 
                     
                    So, there is bait? A game between the haves and have nots can easily be taken out in football field or any other sports venue, which doesn't neccesarily have to envolve weapons of the haves protecting their goods from the have nots. If it's entertainment one see's when watching people dying long slow and very painful deaths then that seems like it can be avoided. I'd be hard pressed to honestly say that human life conditions, over the centuries hasn't gotten "better" through all this turmoil. Although I'm certain, looking through non-dualist eyes, sees this as hoopla. Sandeep has offered up a group that appeals to the thoughts of a better governing body (if for no other reason then his own amusment) which has often sparked some pretty wonderfully thought out debates or bait, as the case may be.
                     
                    The meditative state is
                    one of equanimity to either ilk
                    of response -- creation is
                    perfect with or without human
                    material generosity (a perogative
                    of the relatively wealthy) and
                    selfishness (if not overdone, a
                    simple survival trait) or, for
                    that matter, the ancient (but
                    merely apparent) dichotomy
                    between the two.
                     
                    Great, I'm certainly glad that you have the meditative state down to a science, material generosity (in the aspect of food and viable shelter) isn't even where I was looking. If anywhere it would be in exemplifying a generosity between the local haves and have nots.
                     
                    The Global society has been born with the advent of technologies to traverse distances in shorter periods of time and carrier more people. We basicly use this technology to trade goods travel or go off to war, yet at home (the source of those goods, even in simple concept) is how we go about our daily lives. I'm addressing what can be done at home (so to speak) as to have a system that works a little better (more even keeled) that is more self reliant. It's very apparent that all one has to offer is ablility to enjoy life without hinderence of food loss, shelter dismantaling, and a way to keep things somewhat balanced. To you there may be no way, everything is functioning just fine, that is your contribution as noted, within your ability.
                     
                    Peace and love


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                  • Melody
                    ... Here....I ll start. Dear Pallavi, The reason why some kids are concerned with flavors of ice cream, while other kids are concerned with surviving can be
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 2 4:06 PM
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                      > >
                      > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
                      >
                      > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
                      > regards what you would like to answer her.
                      >
                      > Nina



                      Here....I'll start.


                      Dear Pallavi,

                      The reason why some kids are concerned with
                      flavors of ice cream, while other kids are
                      concerned with surviving

                      can be found within the question itself:
                      the word "other".

                      As long as some people are regarded as
                      "not us", they will need to keep scratching
                      and clawing for their physical survival.
                    • Onniko
                      ... intent. ... that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well. ... only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers. The suffering of
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 2 4:34 PM
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                        <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                        > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                        > have been involved in its production.
                        >
                        > ___ Not very relevant, either way who the author was/is or the
                        intent.
                        >
                        > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                        > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                        > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                        > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                        > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                        > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                        > has Jason.
                        >
                        > ___ I suppose I could have easily discarded it with the junk mail,
                        that seems to be a pretty predictable way as well.
                        >
                        > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                        >
                        > Dead babies? Where are the
                        > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                        >
                        > ___ Death isn't at odds here, nor is it being presented that it's
                        only a child that suffers at the hands of the haves greedy fingers.
                        The suffering of animals is fairly relevent as well, but since we
                        have no real, put forth ability to reduce this long time standing of
                        suffering people (at the hands of haves), we'd be hard pressed to
                        reduce the suffering scenerio of animals as well. This presentation
                        just happened to be from a supposed 12 year old (I have an eleven
                        year old that has done some similar presentations quite on his own.)

                        *v* That's a good point, Jason. It's actually very typical
                        of that age group as their creative efforts are often
                        directed to emotional areas of life. The concrete is being
                        expanded to the abstract and the area of compassion for
                        others is being explored.


                        Presentation from adults describe similar situations and a need for
                        help in those areas. If all this is so well known and typical, then
                        the answer should be pretty typical and well known as well.
                        Apparently belaboring intent is the answer? HaHa.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Peace and Love
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
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                        > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                      • carolina112900
                        Gene. What can I do if in this case you are mistaking sanity for drunkenness? Nothing. Think what you want, OK? ~~freyja
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 2 5:54 PM
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                          Gene.

                          What can I do if in this
                          case you are mistaking sanity
                          for drunkenness?

                          Nothing.

                          Think what you want, OK?

                          ~~freyja

                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
                          <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
                          > >freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)
                          >
                          > Gene Had written:
                          >
                          > > <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
                          > > NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
                          > > have been involved in its production.
                          > >
                          > > I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
                          > > although some discussion has been forthcoming,
                          > > my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
                          > > manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
                          > > already a context within the 'reader' which will be
                          > > prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
                          > > has Jason.
                          > >
                          > > Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
                          > >
                          > > Dead babies? Where are the
                          > > dead puppies and dead kittens?
                          > >
                          > > And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
                          > >
                          >
                          > Freya responded:
                          >
                          > > Drunk? Why? because
                          > > you're not agreeing with
                          > > my assessment?
                          >
                          > You call that an 'assessment'?
                          >
                          > > Which does
                          > > not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
                          > > Not drunk, just getting radical here
                          > > today.
                          >
                          > A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.
                          >
                          > > The thing is manipulative
                          > > IF you see it that way,
                          > > that's all, but it doesn't
                          > > mean it absolutely is.
                          >
                          > 'Absolutely' was not an attribute
                          > assigned by me!
                          >
                          > (straw-man argument fails)
                          >
                          > > The other thing
                          > > is, it depends who is viewing
                          > > the thing, who it is being shown to,
                          > > what are the qualities of
                          > > the demographic sample.
                          >
                          > Well, duh!
                          >
                          > (appeal to popularity argument fails)
                          >
                          > > People on this list may have differing
                          > > reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
                          > > which I am sure is occuring in many of the
                          > > members,
                          > > there is no need to dismiss this piece
                          > > out of hand as "manipulative".
                          >
                          > 'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!
                          >
                          > Your 'assessment' is still requested!
                          >
                          > So far, you have 'assessed' only the
                          > other 'assessors'.
                          >
                          > > <<Good grief!
                          > >
                          > > Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
                          > > say to Charlie Brown when
                          > > he says "Good Grief?"
                          > >
                          > > "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
                          > >
                          > > ~~freyja
                          >
                          > Projections noted!
                          >
                          >
                          > ==Gene Poole==
                        • sandeep
                          Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion versus shame, needing a context to reply
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 2 9:51 PM
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                            Deception,
                             
                            manipulations,
                             
                            modus-operandi,
                             
                            guilt,
                             
                            intentions,
                             
                            canniness deciphering through canniness,
                             
                            true compassion versus shame,
                             
                            needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                             
                             
                             
                            ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                             
                             
                            The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                             
                            It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                             
                            The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                             
                            Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                             
                             
                             
                            If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                             
                             
                            The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                             
                            Thank you Melody
                            Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                             
                             
                            Nina, what was my answer?
                             
                            Nothing.Or not in words.
                             
                            I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                             
                            Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                             
                            I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                             
                            If they do.
                             
                            Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                            It has got uploaded to a few more.
                            Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                             
                            To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                            Hence decided the List route.
                             
                             
                             
                            Bob,.............Yes.
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            And Freyja,.................:-)
                             
                            As you see, a live display of.........an arriving moment,................the immediate rising of a "what else is there to that moment".
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Melody" <melodyande@...>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 05:36 AM
                            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question

                            >
                            > > >
                            > > > What would you Nina, like to
                            answer her?
                            > >
                            > > No, no, you posted the original, please
                            do go first as
                            > > regards what you would like to answer her.
                            > >
                            > > Nina
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Here....I'll
                            start.
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Pallavi,
                            >
                            > The reason why
                            some kids are concerned with
                            > flavors of ice cream, while other kids
                            are
                            > concerned with surviving
                            >
                            > can be found within the
                            question itself:
                            > the word "other".
                            >
                            > As long as some
                            people are regarded as
                            > "not us", they will need to keep
                            scratching
                            > and clawing for their physical
                            survival.
                          • Jason Fishman
                            sandeep wrote:Deception, manipulations, modus-operandi, guilt, intentions, canniness deciphering through canniness, true compassion
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 3 2:11 AM
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                              sandeep <sandeepc@...> wrote:
                              Deception,
                               
                              manipulations,
                               
                              modus-operandi,
                               
                              guilt,
                               
                              intentions,
                               
                              canniness deciphering through canniness,
                               
                              true compassion versus shame,
                               
                              needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                               
                              ___ Yup all this on a meditation group, none the less. Simply ironic.
                               
                              ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                               
                               
                              The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                               
                              It is not a  bewildered presentation.
                               
                              The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not hungry, and with my Papa".
                               
                              Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to be this way?"
                               
                              __ I think it's essentially that way for alot of people or maybe even ALL people. The driving question "why" moves people daily.
                               
                              If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to articulate it,..........do so.
                               
                              __ As far as the answer, a ditto from me on Melody's post.
                               
                              The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-width.
                               
                              Thank you Melody
                              Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-). 
                               
                               
                              Nina, what was my answer?
                               
                              Nothing.Or not in words.
                               
                              I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                               
                              Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                               
                              I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the words to arise in that moment.
                               
                              If they do.
                               
                              ___ Moving words, Moreso then the presentation.
                               
                              Jason, you were intrigued why that file to this List and not to others.
                              It has got uploaded to a few more.
                              Any particular one that you feel I have missed?
                               
                              ___ Not really, I'm not on many to take note. Your post would have gotten picked apart on most of the others, if it hadn't simply been somewhat ignored. The real problem is, it's not MY problem. Non-dual or religious schema aside.
                               
                              To most on the Democracy List, I had sent as personal emails. Many bounced back, after hours of uploading time.
                              Hence decided the List route.
                               
                              __ Makes sense. I was curious if there was an instinct that there might be people more moved to write thier hearts here, then say over at the ranch. Not important just curious.
                               
                              I tend to think there is a great deal of dishonesty, here, there and everywhere. I think there is a buch of liars in among self-inquirers, among the politics of social behavior, I think it's not MY problem, knowing full well whats at play, is the biggest lie one can tell, along with playing out that lie as it trickles through the world.
                               
                              Since the issue was brought up as to intention here, I really could give a crap where it came from. Only that it's truthful, that it is what everyone deals with, whittingly or not, daily. Unless of course one is in a coma ;-)
                               
                              Do I think this has been going on for centuries? yup!
                               
                              Do I think it has gotten better since the cavemen? Absolutely no doubt, it has. Much farther away we are then survival of the fittest. I really don't have to do much and someone somewhere will "help" me out. Which at some point will be my reality, if I live that long.
                               
                              I typically see a continued clawing at the bounderies that keep us at odds, that keep this play of money/stuff/power, deforrestation, sucking up natural resources (irresponsibly), screwing up the enviroment, etc. etc. We have tons more to learn, no doubt...Hopefully we KEEP trying at it, trying to be more honest, more in tune with what keeps us living "creatures" on this planet. There is one thing for certain to me is I'm gonna die as a human body, best live as freely as a human body as I can (as responsibly as I can), without hindering "other" human bodies desire to live as well. Otherwise we mine as well blow the whole damn place up!
                               
                              YEA, YEA... I've heard it said a billion times too... And so it goes...
                               
                              Peace and Love


                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
                            • Nina
                              ... Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to my simple question. All from your initial turning of that question back around on me. If you wonder why
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 3 4:55 AM
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                > Deception,
                                >
                                > manipulations,
                                >
                                > modus-operandi,
                                >
                                > guilt,
                                >
                                > intentions,
                                >
                                > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                >
                                > true compassion versus shame,
                                >
                                > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.

                                Nope, all from your initial refusal to reply to
                                my simple question. All from your initial turning
                                of that question back around on me. If you wonder
                                why that is, you might look to why you felt you
                                had to hide your answer and could not write it
                                flat-out as an accompaniment to your original post.
                                Even saying, "Nothing. Or, not in words," would have
                                sufficed.

                                We weren't replying to Pallavi, as you had to. We were
                                replying to your post, which you did not want to
                                take responsibility for. Your choice, but don't go
                                berating us for a perception of heartlessness.
                                It was a psychological game, where the
                                question is offered up as a way to force the outing
                                of another's strategy, and where you, and anyone
                                who expressed a heartrend or an appropriate
                                'what is arising' answer, would win. Sandeep, from
                                what I have seen of you on these lists, you are
                                way too smart to not realize this action.

                                Pretty much, you replied 'as expected'...
                                from the 'high horse'... after everyone else
                                had 'stuck their horse necks out'... and with
                                the summary dismissal of everyone else's
                                'replies'.

                                Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                                horse shit and helpfulness.

                                Have the nicest of days, really.

                                Nina

                                > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                                using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                                that is savy young mind at work.
                                >
                                > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                                >
                                > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                                it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                                someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                                hungry, and with my Papa".
                                >
                                > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                                be this way?"
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                                articulate it,..........do so.
                                >
                                >
                                > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                                width.
                                >
                                > Thank you Melody
                                > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                                respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                                >
                                >
                                > Nina, what was my answer?
                                >
                                > Nothing. Or not in words.
                                >
                                > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                >
                                > Maybe, some other time, words may be needed.
                                >
                                > I will await for that need, the moment of that need and for the
                                words to arise in that moment.
                                >
                                > If they do.
                              • wrmspirit@aol.com
                                Bandwidth doesn t discriminate between horse shit and helpfulness. Have the nicest of days, really. Nina The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 3 5:13 AM
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                                  Bandwidth doesn't discriminate between
                                  horse shit and helpfulness.

                                  Have the nicest of days, really.

                                  Nina


                                  The release of horse shit becomes helpful for a constipated horse who cares not that another may step in it.......For the fly it becomes attractive, for the shoe, a nuisance, for the earth, fertilizer...
                                • sandeep
                                  ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 3 5:36 AM
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                                    To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                                    Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question



                                    > Have the nicest of days, really.
                                    >
                                    > Nina


                                    Thank you Nina.

                                    Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                                  • Nina
                                    ... I d probably give her a hug and tell her I don t have an answer. Nina
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 3 6:13 AM
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                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                      <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
                                      > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25 PM
                                      > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Have the nicest of days, really.
                                      > >
                                      > > Nina
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thank you Nina.
                                      >
                                      > Do you have anything to say for Pallavi?

                                      I'd probably give her a hug and tell her I don't have an answer.

                                      Nina
                                    • sandeep
                                      ... From: Nina To: Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 3 6:25 AM
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                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Nina" <murrkis@...>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 07:43 PM
                                        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's question

                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                        > <
                                        face=Arial size=2>sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > >
                                        From: "Nina" <
                                        murrkis@y...>
                                        > > To:
                                        <
                                        meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 06:25
                                        PM
                                        > > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep's
                                        question
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 
                                        > > > Have
                                        the nicest of days, really.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Nina
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you Nina.
                                        > >
                                        > > Do
                                        you have anything to say for Pallavi?
                                        >
                                        > I'd probably give her a
                                        hug and tell her I don't have an answer.
                                        >
                                        > Nina
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        Thank you.
                                         
                                         
                                      • Gene Poole
                                        ... between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... No? Think again, wise one. On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 3 9:22 AM
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                                          >sandeep <sandeepc@b...> wrote:

                                          > Deception,
                                          >
                                          > manipulations,
                                          >
                                          > modus-operandi,
                                          >
                                          > guilt,
                                          >
                                          > intentions,
                                          >
                                          > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                          >
                                          > true compassion versus shame,
                                          >
                                          > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures, using the contrast
                                          between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work.
                                          >
                                          > It is not a bewildered presentation.

                                          No?

                                          Think again, wise one.

                                          On an email list, an esteemed person (you)
                                          posts what is claimed to be a presentation
                                          composed by a 12 YO girl; and this becomes
                                          an issue in itself, which it should be.

                                          Sandeep, what is going on with you? Do you
                                          imagine that you can or do control how any
                                          posting is received?

                                          Do you imagine that responses which are at
                                          variance with what you want to hear, are somehow
                                          indicative of flaws or shortcomings in the respondent?

                                          My comment was that I have no proof that this
                                          PP was actually made by a 12 YO girl; and that is
                                          still an issue for me. I have no proof that you have
                                          'hugged her' as she experienced her perplexity.

                                          Frankly, as seen from here, the issue of 'what you
                                          (Sandeep) are up to, is an important one.

                                          Are you trying to bring up in the reader, resonance
                                          with the suffering of the endangered and deprived?

                                          I am sorry to say, that no such effort is required in
                                          my case. I am fully 'resonant' with the plight of the
                                          suffering innocents of this world. I am 'sorry to say',
                                          for the simple reason that I wish that I too were 'innocent';
                                          but, it is too late for me. I may not be 'innocent' in the
                                          same way as the putative suffering 12 YO girl, but neither
                                          am I 'guilty' of causing her any suffering.

                                          So what the hell is up with you, Sandeep? Where is your
                                          usual 'doo be doo be doo' non-attachment. and why do
                                          you now hold everyone to your unstated standards of
                                          morality?

                                          These are serious questions from me, Sandeep; please
                                          let me know. Please post your answer here.

                                          12YO girls... kittens, puppies, dead babies and ice cream;
                                          are those REALLY the imagery which are relevant to a 12YO
                                          girl, in a 3rd world country?

                                          Thank you...

                                          ==Gene Poole==
                                        • Onniko
                                          ... using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,... that is savy young mind at work. ... it, ..........where,........ in her words if I am
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 3 12:12 PM
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                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
                                            <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
                                            > Deception,
                                            >
                                            > manipulations,
                                            >
                                            > modus-operandi,
                                            >
                                            > guilt,
                                            >
                                            > intentions,
                                            >
                                            > canniness deciphering through canniness,
                                            >
                                            > true compassion versus shame,
                                            >
                                            > needing a context to reply to a kid ....
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ......all from a set of pictures put together by a kid.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The making of the presentation, the collection of the pictures,
                                            using the contrast between an ice-cream and survival,....sure,...
                                            that is savy young mind at work.
                                            >
                                            > It is not a bewildered presentation.
                                            >
                                            > The bewilderment is in Pallavi seeing her world, as she sees
                                            it, ..........where,........ in her words "if I am not asking for
                                            someone else's ice-cream, why cannot I be left alive, unhurt and not
                                            hungry, and with my Papa".
                                            >
                                            > Yes Jason, it was/is essentially for her,........ " Why has it to
                                            be this way?"
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > If anybody has an answer for Pallavi and you are moved to
                                            articulate it,..........do so.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The rest of the load of crap,............... just uses up band-
                                            width.
                                            >
                                            > Thank you Melody
                                            > Why am I not suprised that you, if at all you would
                                            respond, ..........it would be to Pallavi....:-).
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Nina, what was my answer?
                                            >
                                            > Nothing.Or not in words.
                                            >
                                            > I just held Pallavi in my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                            >

                                            *v* Oh? Are you saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                            personally know and who was crying over the children who did
                                            not have peace and creature comforts?

                                            That surprizes me because I've seen many children around that age
                                            who have made art of the public appeals variety and they were as far
                                            from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a
                                            cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                            felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see
                                            the injustice that they so recently learned to see.

                                            Their feeling for the children they depicted was never sorrow,
                                            but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                            something they felt the old people in power needed to
                                            be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                            an insult to their intelligence, or a typical adult
                                            brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                            response to what they felt was their very insightful media efforts.

                                            Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads in here
                                            I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting that
                                            thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                            is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                            point while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                            the question was smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                            whereas so often the authority method of script turns people
                                            off. Nice presentation, Pallavi.
                                          • sandeep
                                            ... From: Onniko To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM Subject: [Meditation Society
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 3 10:52 PM
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                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Onniko" <onniko@...>
                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 01:42 AM
                                              Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question


                                              > >
                                              > > I just held Pallavi in
                                              my arms, till her sobs ceased.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > *v* Oh? Are you
                                              saying that there is a real Pallavi which you
                                              > personally know and who
                                              was crying over the children who did
                                              > not have peace and creature
                                              comforts?
                                               
                                              Yes.
                                              And it is more about the consequences for children caught in war zones and conflict situation, rather than of endemic deprivations.

                                              >
                                              > That surprizes me because I've seen many
                                              children around that age  who have made art of the public appeals variety and they >were as far  from crying as is they were lying on the beach licking a cone. Not to say they were callous, but rather that they
                                              >
                                              felt very good about what they did to help make everyone see the injustice that they so recently learned to see.
                                              >
                                              > Their feeling for the children they depicted was
                                              never sorrow, but was in a way, more of a detached compassion for
                                              >
                                              something they felt the old people in power needed to be reminded of. Those children would have seen a hug as
                                              > an insult to their intelligence, or a
                                              typical adult brushing off of the 'poor sad little kid', a very patronizing
                                              > response to what they felt was their very insightful media
                                              efforts.
                                               
                                               
                                              That indeed is also a typical response.
                                               
                                               
                                              In this case, it was different.
                                               

                                              >
                                              > Actually, if there was a Pallavi who reads
                                              in here
                                              > I'd want to tell you that you did a great job in putting
                                              that
                                              > thought provolking public service announcement together. It
                                              >
                                              is artistically pleasing as well as remaining clear and to the
                                              > point
                                              while holding the interest of the viewer. The use of
                                              > the question was
                                              smart because it makes the viewer think,
                                              > whereas so often the authority
                                              method of script turns people
                                              > off. Nice presentation,
                                              Pallavi.
                                               
                                               
                                              No Pallavi is not subbed to this List or any List for that matter.
                                               
                                              I will convey your thoughts to her.
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               

                                               
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