Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

palliative pull of the repulsive was Pragmatic Presupposition

Expand Messages
  • Nina
    ... Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note that there is a definition (personal
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
      > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
      > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
      > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
      > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
      > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
      > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
      > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
      > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
      > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
      > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
      > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
      > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
      >
      > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
      > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
      > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
      > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
      > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
      > It is a form of propaganda.
      >
      > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
      > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
      > Thanks for asking,
      > Love
      > Bobby G.

      Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
      means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
      that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
      enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
      terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
      the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
      Thus, the repulsion.

      http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

      Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
      and even grows in power?

      Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
      when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
      around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
      lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
      abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
      to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
      That's a really interesting foundational piece to
      the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
      that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
      in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
      like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

      Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

      Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
      you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

      Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
      repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
      'take it away!'

      big ole grin,
      Nina
    • texasbg2000
      ... regardless ... Nina: That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of the archaic meaning of the word glamour . ... Yes. ... I take your point
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
        > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
        regardless
        > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
        > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
        > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
        > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
        > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
        > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
        > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
        > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
        > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
        > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
        > >
        > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
        > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
        > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
        > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
        > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
        > > It is a form of propaganda.
        > >
        > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
        > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
        > > Thanks for asking,
        > > Love
        > > Bobby G.
        >
        > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
        > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
        > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
        > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
        > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
        > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
        > Thus, the repulsion.
        >
        > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

        Nina:
        That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
        the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

        >
        > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
        > and even grows in power?

        Yes.

        >
        > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
        > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
        > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
        > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
        > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
        > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.

        I take your point here, Nina.

        > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
        > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
        > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
        > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
        > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

        That follows nicely from what you say above.

        >
        > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

        I think it is useful to
        understanding to be repulsed by charisma. It allows one
        to look behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

        >
        > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
        > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

        I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
        being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
        comfort may not be experienced
        so the comfort of believing it will,
        is canceled by the disappointment.

        I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
        do not like to influence people.

        And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
        Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

        >
        > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
        > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
        > 'take it away!'

        Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
        like to think laterally and keep a good humor.

        Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
        to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
        disrespect the participants.

        The tendency to be
        sucked in by false gurus can be canceled if we recognize that
        tendency in ourselves and develop the sense of discomfort when
        we feel charisma or undue persuasiveness.

        Love,
        Bobby G.


        >
        > big ole grin,
        > Nina
      • Nina
        ... discusson. ... Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word really lends another layer to the way glamour is presented today... particularly
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 31, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
          <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
          > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
          > > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
          > regardless
          > > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
          > > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
          > > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
          > > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
          > > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
          > > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
          > > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
          > > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
          > > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
          > > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this
          discusson.
          > > >
          > > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
          > > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
          > > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
          > > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
          > > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
          > > > It is a form of propaganda.
          > > >
          > > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
          > > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
          > > > Thanks for asking,
          > > > Love
          > > > Bobby G.
          > >
          > > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
          > > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
          > > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
          > > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
          > > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
          > > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
          > > Thus, the repulsion.
          > >
          > > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma
          >
          > Nina:
          > That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
          > the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

          Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word
          really lends another layer to the way 'glamour' is
          presented today... particularly 'false glamour' or
          'camp glamour'... in instances where glamour is
          consciously taken on as a mask.

          It is interesting how even when one doesn't intellectually
          or consciously make those connections to archaic meanings,
          those meanings still have a resonance. Astounding!

          What fun, thanks, Bobby!

          > > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
          > > and even grows in power?
          >
          > Yes.
          >
          > >
          > > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
          > > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
          > > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
          > > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
          > > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
          > > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
          >
          > I take your point here, Nina.
          >
          > > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
          > > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
          > > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
          > > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
          > > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...
          >
          > That follows nicely from what you say above.
          >
          > >
          > > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.
          >
          > I think it is useful to understanding to be
          > repulsed by charisma. It allows one to look
          > behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

          Oh yes, agreed about looking behind the cloak and
          not being led around by the nose. I guess I wouldn't
          use the word repulsed; perhaps personally I would use
          the word 'recognition'. Actually, charisma and its
          relative, glamour, are wonderfully playful embodiments;
          I can't find anything inherently wrong with those
          embodiments. The trick is not avoiding them, but
          understanding them as 'play'...

          > > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
          > > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)
          >
          > I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
          > being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
          > comfort may not be experienced
          > so the comfort of believing it will,
          > is canceled by the disappointment.
          >
          > I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
          > do not like to influence people.
          >
          > And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
          > Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

          The key to 'being misled' is that one doesn't
          realize one is being misled. In that, there can
          be the comfort of ignorance. Also, a person can be
          blinded by their desire for comfort, such that
          one is more easily misled.

          At any rate, comfort may be canceled by the
          realization that one has been misled, but the
          desire for comfort is not canceled by such a
          realization.

          Here is another way of thinking about charisma
          and glamour: shamanism. Essentially, shamanism
          is a manner of connecting oneself or another
          to an overlooked or under-realized aspect. It is
          influence, but not necessarily of a political
          sort. (I sense you are thinking of a political
          influence...)

          Also, I think of your paintings and where they
          take the person who looks upon them... that is
          a sort of influence, if only by sharing out your
          perspective and making it available for another
          to 'take on'. Passive or active, it is influence.

          In fluence... In fluid ence... essence of fluid...
          that's an interesting word... flowing like water.
          Can it be contained? By what means? And to what
          degree? Or, does it flow freely, like water
          through my fingers? Or may I drink it in, like
          water from a cup?

          Or, is it more like the air we breath, and the
          fluidity of our breaths, moving in and out, not
          just within my body, but yours... we all breath
          the same air, and so, we are all arising from
          that same influence... how can I say I do not
          like to influence others? I am part and parcel
          to that influence...

          > > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
          > > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
          > > 'take it away!'
          >
          > Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
          > like to think laterally and keep a good humor.
          >
          > Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
          > to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
          > disrespect the participants.

          I see what you're saying. Still, in the broader view,
          charisma is no biggy...

          > The tendency to be sucked in by false gurus
          > can be canceled if we recognize that
          > tendency in ourselves and develop the
          > sense of discomfort when we feel
          > charisma or undue persuasiveness.

          Hmm... I can see that (the tendency towards)
          'excessive application of charisma or undue will
          towards persuasiveness' might rebound into
          feelings of discomfort or repulsion, but
          I'm not following that one should develop
          the sense of discomfort one feels in
          recognizing that tendency. Quite the opposite -
          I say recognize away, but develop a broader
          sense of how this figures into the big picture,
          rather than condemning it, and reinforcing that
          condemnation with feelings of discomfort.
          Ah, am I tending towards comfort? Lol...

          What is all this worry about getting sucked
          in by false gurus? ;) I say, let's apply one
          of Frankl's logotherapy techniques:

          What's the worst that could possibly happen
          by getting sucked in by a false guru? Flesh
          that out fully, put yourself in it (eek,
          shamanic!), and then ask the question:

          How bad can this be?

          > > big ole OM
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.