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Re: Pragmatic Presupposition

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Nina wrote: snip And I find charisma repugnant. ... Hi Nina, Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did he make others
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
      "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:


      snip

      And I find charisma repugnant.
      > >
      > > Love
      > > Bobby G.
      > > >
      > > > Nina:
      >
      > What does charisma have to do with this
      > discussion, and why would it be so
      > repugnant?
      >
      > Nina

      Hi Nina,

      Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
      he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
      as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
      other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
      conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
      necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
      case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.

      Peace and blessings,
      Bob
    • texasbg2000
      ... Hi Nina: Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron. Charisma is repugnant or at
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
        > > > view of things is that different from
        > > > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
        > > > noticed, however, that you seem to be
        > > > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
        > > > a trance word for you, or something?
        > >
        > > If you notice it then I will look for it.
        > > I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.
        > >
        > > Love
        > > Bobby G.
        > > >
        > > > Nina
        >
        > What does charisma have to do with this
        > discussion, and why would it be so
        > repugnant?
        >
        > Nina

        Hi Nina:

        Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in
        because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron.

        Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
        influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
        of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
        Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
        If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal with someone who
        knew you were doing the thing they wanted for the wrong reasons then
        you understand. Why blame the person who is seeking comfort for
        themselves by screwing you? It is like blaming an animal for wanting
        to eat you. Why not look at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as
        undesirable, and set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
        by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.

        I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the convincing tone he
        took when speaking. He was talking about his guru's magic. F. Lee
        Bailey, the attorney, looked into a tv camera and said, "I don't
        believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist) took one thin dime", and I
        believed him for an instant. It is a form of propaganda.

        The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
        communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
        Thanks for asking,
        Love
        Bobby G.
      • texasbg2000
        ... I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win last night. Love Bobby G.
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > snip
          >
          > And I find charisma repugnant.
          > > >
          > > > Love
          > > > Bobby G.
          > > > >
          > > > > Nina:
          > >
          > > What does charisma have to do with this
          > > discussion, and why would it be so
          > > repugnant?
          > >
          > > Nina
          >
          > Hi Nina,
          >
          > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
          > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
          > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
          > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
          > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
          > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
          > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
          >
          > Peace and blessings,
          > Bob

          I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win
          last night.

          Love
          Bobby G.
        • Sharlene
          ... Why were they on them?
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
            > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.

            Why were they on them?
          • texasbg2000
            ... Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting them off also. Love Bobby G.
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sharlene
              <sharlene@l...> wrote:
              >
              > > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
              >
              > Why were they on them?

              Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting
              them off also.
              Love
              Bobby G.
            • Nina
              ... Hmm, I don t know much about football, though I can recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe). Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken: That
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
                > snip
                >
                > And I find charisma repugnant.
                > > >
                > > > Love
                > > > Bobby G.

                > > What does charisma have to do with this
                > > discussion, and why would it be so
                > > repugnant?
                > >
                > > Nina

                > Hi Nina,
                >
                > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
                >
                > Peace and blessings,
                > Bob

                Hmm, I don't know much about football, though I can
                recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe).

                Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken:

                That the only thing that counts, as regards Neon Deon
                Sanders and his manifestation of 'survival skills' on
                the football field, is that NDS (ohmygod - this must
                be a sign!) use his considerable repulsion, talent and
                skill to bring glory, and thus comfort and survival,
                to his own team.

                It doesn't matter one ounce that the other team finds
                him repulsive, or that fans find him repulsive,
                or that the other teams might want to hurt him -
                what matters is 'what is happening':

                "Are we winning?"

                Football, and other sports, are actually a bit more
                frank about this underlying motivation than other
                'arts'.

                Nina

                P.S. Yea, it didn't go over my head that NDS was
                spoken about in past-tense; I chose to bring
                the example into the present-tense.
              • Nina
                ... Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note that there is a definition (personal
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
                  > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                  > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
                  > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                  > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                  > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                  > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                  > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                  > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                  > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                  > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                  > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                  > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                  >
                  > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                  > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                  > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                  > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                  > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                  > It is a form of propaganda.
                  >
                  > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                  > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                  > Thanks for asking,
                  > Love
                  > Bobby G.

                  Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                  means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                  that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                  enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                  terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                  the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                  Thus, the repulsion.

                  http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                  Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                  and even grows in power?

                  Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                  when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                  around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                  lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                  abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                  to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                  That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                  the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                  that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                  in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                  like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                  Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                  Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                  you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                  Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                  repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                  'take it away!'

                  big ole grin,
                  Nina
                • texasbg2000
                  ... regardless ... Nina: That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of the archaic meaning of the word glamour . ... Yes. ... I take your point
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                    <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                    > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                    > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                    regardless
                    > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                    > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                    > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                    > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                    > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                    > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                    > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                    > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                    > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                    > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                    > >
                    > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                    > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                    > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                    > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                    > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                    > > It is a form of propaganda.
                    > >
                    > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                    > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                    > > Thanks for asking,
                    > > Love
                    > > Bobby G.
                    >
                    > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                    > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                    > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                    > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                    > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                    > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                    > Thus, the repulsion.
                    >
                    > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                    Nina:
                    That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                    the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                    >
                    > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                    > and even grows in power?

                    Yes.

                    >
                    > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                    > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                    > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                    > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                    > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                    > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.

                    I take your point here, Nina.

                    > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                    > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                    > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                    > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                    > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                    That follows nicely from what you say above.

                    >
                    > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                    I think it is useful to
                    understanding to be repulsed by charisma. It allows one
                    to look behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                    >
                    > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                    > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                    I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                    being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                    comfort may not be experienced
                    so the comfort of believing it will,
                    is canceled by the disappointment.

                    I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                    do not like to influence people.

                    And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                    Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                    >
                    > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                    > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                    > 'take it away!'

                    Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                    like to think laterally and keep a good humor.

                    Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                    to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                    disrespect the participants.

                    The tendency to be
                    sucked in by false gurus can be canceled if we recognize that
                    tendency in ourselves and develop the sense of discomfort when
                    we feel charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                    Love,
                    Bobby G.


                    >
                    > big ole grin,
                    > Nina
                  • Nina
                    ... discusson. ... Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word really lends another layer to the way glamour is presented today... particularly
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 31, 2003
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                      <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                      > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                      > > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                      > > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                      > regardless
                      > > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                      > > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                      > > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                      > > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                      > > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                      > > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                      > > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                      > > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                      > > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                      > > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this
                      discusson.
                      > > >
                      > > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                      > > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                      > > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                      > > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                      > > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                      > > > It is a form of propaganda.
                      > > >
                      > > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                      > > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                      > > > Thanks for asking,
                      > > > Love
                      > > > Bobby G.
                      > >
                      > > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                      > > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                      > > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                      > > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                      > > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                      > > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                      > > Thus, the repulsion.
                      > >
                      > > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma
                      >
                      > Nina:
                      > That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                      > the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                      Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word
                      really lends another layer to the way 'glamour' is
                      presented today... particularly 'false glamour' or
                      'camp glamour'... in instances where glamour is
                      consciously taken on as a mask.

                      It is interesting how even when one doesn't intellectually
                      or consciously make those connections to archaic meanings,
                      those meanings still have a resonance. Astounding!

                      What fun, thanks, Bobby!

                      > > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                      > > and even grows in power?
                      >
                      > Yes.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                      > > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                      > > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                      > > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                      > > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                      > > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                      >
                      > I take your point here, Nina.
                      >
                      > > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                      > > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                      > > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                      > > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                      > > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...
                      >
                      > That follows nicely from what you say above.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.
                      >
                      > I think it is useful to understanding to be
                      > repulsed by charisma. It allows one to look
                      > behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                      Oh yes, agreed about looking behind the cloak and
                      not being led around by the nose. I guess I wouldn't
                      use the word repulsed; perhaps personally I would use
                      the word 'recognition'. Actually, charisma and its
                      relative, glamour, are wonderfully playful embodiments;
                      I can't find anything inherently wrong with those
                      embodiments. The trick is not avoiding them, but
                      understanding them as 'play'...

                      > > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                      > > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)
                      >
                      > I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                      > being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                      > comfort may not be experienced
                      > so the comfort of believing it will,
                      > is canceled by the disappointment.
                      >
                      > I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                      > do not like to influence people.
                      >
                      > And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                      > Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                      The key to 'being misled' is that one doesn't
                      realize one is being misled. In that, there can
                      be the comfort of ignorance. Also, a person can be
                      blinded by their desire for comfort, such that
                      one is more easily misled.

                      At any rate, comfort may be canceled by the
                      realization that one has been misled, but the
                      desire for comfort is not canceled by such a
                      realization.

                      Here is another way of thinking about charisma
                      and glamour: shamanism. Essentially, shamanism
                      is a manner of connecting oneself or another
                      to an overlooked or under-realized aspect. It is
                      influence, but not necessarily of a political
                      sort. (I sense you are thinking of a political
                      influence...)

                      Also, I think of your paintings and where they
                      take the person who looks upon them... that is
                      a sort of influence, if only by sharing out your
                      perspective and making it available for another
                      to 'take on'. Passive or active, it is influence.

                      In fluence... In fluid ence... essence of fluid...
                      that's an interesting word... flowing like water.
                      Can it be contained? By what means? And to what
                      degree? Or, does it flow freely, like water
                      through my fingers? Or may I drink it in, like
                      water from a cup?

                      Or, is it more like the air we breath, and the
                      fluidity of our breaths, moving in and out, not
                      just within my body, but yours... we all breath
                      the same air, and so, we are all arising from
                      that same influence... how can I say I do not
                      like to influence others? I am part and parcel
                      to that influence...

                      > > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                      > > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                      > > 'take it away!'
                      >
                      > Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                      > like to think laterally and keep a good humor.
                      >
                      > Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                      > to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                      > disrespect the participants.

                      I see what you're saying. Still, in the broader view,
                      charisma is no biggy...

                      > The tendency to be sucked in by false gurus
                      > can be canceled if we recognize that
                      > tendency in ourselves and develop the
                      > sense of discomfort when we feel
                      > charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                      Hmm... I can see that (the tendency towards)
                      'excessive application of charisma or undue will
                      towards persuasiveness' might rebound into
                      feelings of discomfort or repulsion, but
                      I'm not following that one should develop
                      the sense of discomfort one feels in
                      recognizing that tendency. Quite the opposite -
                      I say recognize away, but develop a broader
                      sense of how this figures into the big picture,
                      rather than condemning it, and reinforcing that
                      condemnation with feelings of discomfort.
                      Ah, am I tending towards comfort? Lol...

                      What is all this worry about getting sucked
                      in by false gurus? ;) I say, let's apply one
                      of Frankl's logotherapy techniques:

                      What's the worst that could possibly happen
                      by getting sucked in by a false guru? Flesh
                      that out fully, put yourself in it (eek,
                      shamanic!), and then ask the question:

                      How bad can this be?

                      > > big ole OM
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