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Re: Pragmatic Presupposition

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  • Nina
    ... Yep, that s all anybody wants to do - make their own points about the issue. Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee) to not have the final word.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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      > Jody, this entire post has nothing
      > but your own presumption of being
      > right and therefore anyone who has
      > another opinion must not
      > understand what you are saying.
      >
      > I am good with that. It is just you.
      > I just wanted to make my own
      > points about the issue.
      >
      > Love
      > Bobby G.

      Yep, that's all anybody wants to do -
      make their own points about the issue.
      Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee)
      to not have the final word.

      Anyway, it will be interesting to see how
      long this conversation, such as it is, might
      go on...

      I have a funny story to share with you all...

      Every now and then, I receive an invitation
      from one website or another to take an IQ test.
      I'm a real sucker for IQ tests, in the way some
      people are sucker for 'romance tests'. It isn't
      so much that I want to see what number represents
      my IQ, though that is interesting, or that I want
      to see what words represent my particular talent
      areas, even though those phrases are fun to see,
      it is more the whole dynamic of using certain,
      specific questions to determine one's magnitude
      and aptitude of 'brilliance'. Lol!

      You ask a certain questions, you get certain
      answers, and then you wind up with a certain
      picture of 'what is happening'.

      Most presuppositions are pretty pragmatic,
      don't you think?

      It's a way of getting a firm footing
      so you can hold the camera still to get a
      good shot of the scene you're framing.

      Though I'm tempted, :), I won't go into
      how getting a firm footing sure does enhance
      one's feeling of comfort.

      Bobby G., I don't really see how your
      view of things is that different from
      mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
      noticed, however, that you seem to be
      avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
      a trance word for you, or something?

      Nina
    • texasbg2000
      ... There is also something called semantic presupposition which is a relation between sentences or statement, related to but distinct from entailmnt and
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
        <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > > Jody, this entire post has nothing
        > > but your own presumption of being
        > > right and therefore anyone who has
        > > another opinion must not
        > > understand what you are saying.
        > >
        > > I am good with that. It is just you.
        > > I just wanted to make my own
        > > points about the issue.
        > >
        > > Love
        > > Bobby G.
        >
        > Yep, that's all anybody wants to do -
        > make their own points about the issue.
        > Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee)
        > to not have the final word.
        >
        > Anyway, it will be interesting to see how
        > long this conversation, such as it is, might
        > go on...
        >
        > I have a funny story to share with you all...
        >
        > Every now and then, I receive an invitation
        > from one website or another to take an IQ test.
        > I'm a real sucker for IQ tests, in the way some
        > people are sucker for 'romance tests'. It isn't
        > so much that I want to see what number represents
        > my IQ, though that is interesting, or that I want
        > to see what words represent my particular talent
        > areas, even though those phrases are fun to see,
        > it is more the whole dynamic of using certain,
        > specific questions to determine one's magnitude
        > and aptitude of 'brilliance'. Lol!
        >
        > You ask a certain questions, you get certain
        > answers, and then you wind up with a certain
        > picture of 'what is happening'.
        >
        > Most presuppositions are pretty pragmatic,
        > don't you think?

        There is also something called semantic presupposition which
        is a relation between sentences or statement, related to but distinct
        from entailmnt and assertion. Such as, "The present king of France
        is bald" does not entail there is a present king of France but
        presupposes it. But that type is not what I was griping about.
        Pragmatic supposition is what a speaker takes to be understood in
        making an assertion. Since I do not take it to be understood then it
        holds no sway to me.

        >
        > It's a way of getting a firm footing
        > so you can hold the camera still to get a
        > good shot of the scene you're framing.
        >
        > Though I'm tempted, :), I won't go into
        > how getting a firm footing sure does enhance
        > one's feeling of comfort.
        >
        > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
        > view of things is that different from
        > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
        > noticed, however, that you seem to be
        > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
        > a trance word for you, or something?

        If you notice it then I will look for it.
        I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.

        Love
        Bobby G.
        >
        > Nina
      • Jason Fishman
        Nina wrote: Bobby G., I don t really see how your view of things is that different from mine, or Bruce s, or Jody s... I have noticed,
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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          Nina <murrkis@...> wrote:
           
          Bobby G., I don't really see how your
          view of things is that different from
          mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
          noticed, however, that you seem to be
          avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
          a trance word for you, or something?

          Nina

          I'd be curious to know if any view could ever hold anymore validity then any other view?

          I'd also like to know if anyone has taken into account whether death or fear of an end to being is a comfort seeking process?

          There is a predictablity factor in the moment for maturity, such as the sun will rise in the east or grass grows or it may rain due to certain cloud cover. All of this based on many unknown and unpredicable events which also includes many known and predictible ones as well. So I would say that with a sense of maturity comes a higher degree of comfort, of which can be irradicated by enough unknown, unpredictable events, which keep us thinking humans searching for more predictablity or comfort level, if you will.

          I would also conclude there is a certain comfort in the unpredictable factor, such as to say, it's in the hands of nature as to how a species may continue. So if your saying that being a human being is all about being comfortable, then I would say there really isn't a way to determine such a thing. Since people tend to be extremely uncomfortable during peaks in unpredictable events, such as the development of cancer, a car accident, lighting strike, etc.

          I see posts here about evolution and thus far, there is really no complete record of any species evolving from some other form. There are huge gaps between even prehistoric finds and the current state of a species, as if there was a spontanious burst from one form to another. There is a presupposition that we are missing pieces and calling it evolution. We'll I'm no expert, but from what I've read and seen, that seems to be the case.

          Anyway, to tie that into the first question is to say that most information is readily available to those wishing to study and regardless a veiwpoint thus far isn't backed up by making assumptions, but by having a higher degree of predictablity, neither of which supposes that one would be more comforted within facts.
           
          One thing is certain, it takes a very long time to grow/build and mearly moments to destroy. I'm not sure where anyone would ever find comfort in that beyond a certain predictablity.
           
          Peace and Love


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          Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
        • Nina
          ... What does charisma have to do with this discussion, and why would it be so repugnant? Nina
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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            > > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
            > > view of things is that different from
            > > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
            > > noticed, however, that you seem to be
            > > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
            > > a trance word for you, or something?
            >
            > If you notice it then I will look for it.
            > I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.
            >
            > Love
            > Bobby G.
            > >
            > > Nina

            What does charisma have to do with this
            discussion, and why would it be so
            repugnant?

            Nina
          • medit8ionsociety
            Nina wrote: snip And I find charisma repugnant. ... Hi Nina, Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did he make others
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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              "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:


              snip

              And I find charisma repugnant.
              > >
              > > Love
              > > Bobby G.
              > > >
              > > > Nina:
              >
              > What does charisma have to do with this
              > discussion, and why would it be so
              > repugnant?
              >
              > Nina

              Hi Nina,

              Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
              he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
              as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
              other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
              conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
              necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
              case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.

              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
            • texasbg2000
              ... Hi Nina: Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron. Charisma is repugnant or at
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                > > > view of things is that different from
                > > > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                > > > noticed, however, that you seem to be
                > > > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                > > > a trance word for you, or something?
                > >
                > > If you notice it then I will look for it.
                > > I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.
                > >
                > > Love
                > > Bobby G.
                > > >
                > > > Nina
                >
                > What does charisma have to do with this
                > discussion, and why would it be so
                > repugnant?
                >
                > Nina

                Hi Nina:

                Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in
                because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron.

                Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
                of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal with someone who
                knew you were doing the thing they wanted for the wrong reasons then
                you understand. Why blame the person who is seeking comfort for
                themselves by screwing you? It is like blaming an animal for wanting
                to eat you. Why not look at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as
                undesirable, and set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.

                I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the convincing tone he
                took when speaking. He was talking about his guru's magic. F. Lee
                Bailey, the attorney, looked into a tv camera and said, "I don't
                believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist) took one thin dime", and I
                believed him for an instant. It is a form of propaganda.

                The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                Thanks for asking,
                Love
                Bobby G.
              • texasbg2000
                ... I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win last night. Love Bobby G.
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > snip
                  >
                  > And I find charisma repugnant.
                  > > >
                  > > > Love
                  > > > Bobby G.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Nina:
                  > >
                  > > What does charisma have to do with this
                  > > discussion, and why would it be so
                  > > repugnant?
                  > >
                  > > Nina
                  >
                  > Hi Nina,
                  >
                  > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                  > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                  > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                  > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                  > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                  > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                  > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
                  >
                  > Peace and blessings,
                  > Bob

                  I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win
                  last night.

                  Love
                  Bobby G.
                • Sharlene
                  ... Why were they on them?
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                    > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.

                    Why were they on them?
                  • texasbg2000
                    ... Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting them off also. Love Bobby G.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sharlene
                      <sharlene@l...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                      >
                      > Why were they on them?

                      Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting
                      them off also.
                      Love
                      Bobby G.
                    • Nina
                      ... Hmm, I don t know much about football, though I can recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe). Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken: That
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                        > snip
                        >
                        > And I find charisma repugnant.
                        > > >
                        > > > Love
                        > > > Bobby G.

                        > > What does charisma have to do with this
                        > > discussion, and why would it be so
                        > > repugnant?
                        > >
                        > > Nina

                        > Hi Nina,
                        >
                        > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                        > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                        > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                        > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                        > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                        > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                        > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
                        >
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob

                        Hmm, I don't know much about football, though I can
                        recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe).

                        Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken:

                        That the only thing that counts, as regards Neon Deon
                        Sanders and his manifestation of 'survival skills' on
                        the football field, is that NDS (ohmygod - this must
                        be a sign!) use his considerable repulsion, talent and
                        skill to bring glory, and thus comfort and survival,
                        to his own team.

                        It doesn't matter one ounce that the other team finds
                        him repulsive, or that fans find him repulsive,
                        or that the other teams might want to hurt him -
                        what matters is 'what is happening':

                        "Are we winning?"

                        Football, and other sports, are actually a bit more
                        frank about this underlying motivation than other
                        'arts'.

                        Nina

                        P.S. Yea, it didn't go over my head that NDS was
                        spoken about in past-tense; I chose to bring
                        the example into the present-tense.
                      • Nina
                        ... Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note that there is a definition (personal
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                          > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                          > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
                          > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                          > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                          > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                          > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                          > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                          > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                          > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                          > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                          > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                          > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                          >
                          > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                          > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                          > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                          > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                          > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                          > It is a form of propaganda.
                          >
                          > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                          > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                          > Thanks for asking,
                          > Love
                          > Bobby G.

                          Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                          means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                          that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                          enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                          terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                          the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                          Thus, the repulsion.

                          http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                          Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                          and even grows in power?

                          Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                          when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                          around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                          lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                          abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                          to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                          That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                          the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                          that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                          in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                          like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                          Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                          Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                          you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                          Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                          repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                          'take it away!'

                          big ole grin,
                          Nina
                        • texasbg2000
                          ... regardless ... Nina: That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of the archaic meaning of the word glamour . ... Yes. ... I take your point
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                            <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                            > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                            > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                            regardless
                            > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                            > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                            > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                            > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                            > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                            > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                            > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                            > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                            > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                            > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                            > >
                            > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                            > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                            > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                            > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                            > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                            > > It is a form of propaganda.
                            > >
                            > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                            > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                            > > Thanks for asking,
                            > > Love
                            > > Bobby G.
                            >
                            > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                            > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                            > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                            > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                            > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                            > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                            > Thus, the repulsion.
                            >
                            > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                            Nina:
                            That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                            the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                            >
                            > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                            > and even grows in power?

                            Yes.

                            >
                            > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                            > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                            > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                            > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                            > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                            > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.

                            I take your point here, Nina.

                            > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                            > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                            > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                            > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                            > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                            That follows nicely from what you say above.

                            >
                            > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                            I think it is useful to
                            understanding to be repulsed by charisma. It allows one
                            to look behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                            >
                            > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                            > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                            I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                            being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                            comfort may not be experienced
                            so the comfort of believing it will,
                            is canceled by the disappointment.

                            I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                            do not like to influence people.

                            And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                            Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                            >
                            > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                            > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                            > 'take it away!'

                            Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                            like to think laterally and keep a good humor.

                            Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                            to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                            disrespect the participants.

                            The tendency to be
                            sucked in by false gurus can be canceled if we recognize that
                            tendency in ourselves and develop the sense of discomfort when
                            we feel charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                            Love,
                            Bobby G.


                            >
                            > big ole grin,
                            > Nina
                          • Nina
                            ... discusson. ... Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word really lends another layer to the way glamour is presented today... particularly
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 31, 2003
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                              <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                              > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                              > > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                              > > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                              > regardless
                              > > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                              > > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                              > > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                              > > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                              > > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                              > > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                              > > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                              > > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                              > > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                              > > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this
                              discusson.
                              > > >
                              > > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                              > > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                              > > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                              > > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                              > > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                              > > > It is a form of propaganda.
                              > > >
                              > > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                              > > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                              > > > Thanks for asking,
                              > > > Love
                              > > > Bobby G.
                              > >
                              > > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                              > > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                              > > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                              > > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                              > > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                              > > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                              > > Thus, the repulsion.
                              > >
                              > > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma
                              >
                              > Nina:
                              > That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                              > the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                              Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word
                              really lends another layer to the way 'glamour' is
                              presented today... particularly 'false glamour' or
                              'camp glamour'... in instances where glamour is
                              consciously taken on as a mask.

                              It is interesting how even when one doesn't intellectually
                              or consciously make those connections to archaic meanings,
                              those meanings still have a resonance. Astounding!

                              What fun, thanks, Bobby!

                              > > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                              > > and even grows in power?
                              >
                              > Yes.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                              > > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                              > > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                              > > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                              > > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                              > > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                              >
                              > I take your point here, Nina.
                              >
                              > > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                              > > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                              > > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                              > > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                              > > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...
                              >
                              > That follows nicely from what you say above.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.
                              >
                              > I think it is useful to understanding to be
                              > repulsed by charisma. It allows one to look
                              > behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                              Oh yes, agreed about looking behind the cloak and
                              not being led around by the nose. I guess I wouldn't
                              use the word repulsed; perhaps personally I would use
                              the word 'recognition'. Actually, charisma and its
                              relative, glamour, are wonderfully playful embodiments;
                              I can't find anything inherently wrong with those
                              embodiments. The trick is not avoiding them, but
                              understanding them as 'play'...

                              > > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                              > > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)
                              >
                              > I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                              > being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                              > comfort may not be experienced
                              > so the comfort of believing it will,
                              > is canceled by the disappointment.
                              >
                              > I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                              > do not like to influence people.
                              >
                              > And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                              > Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                              The key to 'being misled' is that one doesn't
                              realize one is being misled. In that, there can
                              be the comfort of ignorance. Also, a person can be
                              blinded by their desire for comfort, such that
                              one is more easily misled.

                              At any rate, comfort may be canceled by the
                              realization that one has been misled, but the
                              desire for comfort is not canceled by such a
                              realization.

                              Here is another way of thinking about charisma
                              and glamour: shamanism. Essentially, shamanism
                              is a manner of connecting oneself or another
                              to an overlooked or under-realized aspect. It is
                              influence, but not necessarily of a political
                              sort. (I sense you are thinking of a political
                              influence...)

                              Also, I think of your paintings and where they
                              take the person who looks upon them... that is
                              a sort of influence, if only by sharing out your
                              perspective and making it available for another
                              to 'take on'. Passive or active, it is influence.

                              In fluence... In fluid ence... essence of fluid...
                              that's an interesting word... flowing like water.
                              Can it be contained? By what means? And to what
                              degree? Or, does it flow freely, like water
                              through my fingers? Or may I drink it in, like
                              water from a cup?

                              Or, is it more like the air we breath, and the
                              fluidity of our breaths, moving in and out, not
                              just within my body, but yours... we all breath
                              the same air, and so, we are all arising from
                              that same influence... how can I say I do not
                              like to influence others? I am part and parcel
                              to that influence...

                              > > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                              > > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                              > > 'take it away!'
                              >
                              > Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                              > like to think laterally and keep a good humor.
                              >
                              > Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                              > to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                              > disrespect the participants.

                              I see what you're saying. Still, in the broader view,
                              charisma is no biggy...

                              > The tendency to be sucked in by false gurus
                              > can be canceled if we recognize that
                              > tendency in ourselves and develop the
                              > sense of discomfort when we feel
                              > charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                              Hmm... I can see that (the tendency towards)
                              'excessive application of charisma or undue will
                              towards persuasiveness' might rebound into
                              feelings of discomfort or repulsion, but
                              I'm not following that one should develop
                              the sense of discomfort one feels in
                              recognizing that tendency. Quite the opposite -
                              I say recognize away, but develop a broader
                              sense of how this figures into the big picture,
                              rather than condemning it, and reinforcing that
                              condemnation with feelings of discomfort.
                              Ah, am I tending towards comfort? Lol...

                              What is all this worry about getting sucked
                              in by false gurus? ;) I say, let's apply one
                              of Frankl's logotherapy techniques:

                              What's the worst that could possibly happen
                              by getting sucked in by a false guru? Flesh
                              that out fully, put yourself in it (eek,
                              shamanic!), and then ask the question:

                              How bad can this be?

                              > > big ole OM
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