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re: Pragmatic Presupposition-Bruce

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  • Bigbobgraham@aol.com
    ... Bobby: This was put in here to show that you are presupposing that comfort is motivation for all. You can believe this is so and make the statement as if
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 27, 2003
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      texasbg2000 wrote:
      Hi:There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion I wanted to make clear. So here it is."The search for power is the search for comfort".The statement presupposes comfort is the motivator for the search for power. It offers no reasons or factual data.Pragmatic presupposition does not assign truth or falsity to an assertion. If it is false something about it will be inappropriate.


      Bobby:
      This was put in here to show that you are presupposing that comfort is motivation for all.  You can believe this is so and make the statement as if it is true.  The the concept of a Pragmatic presupposition does not let you use it as a proof of itself.  The presupposing of something being true 'does not assign truth or falsity to an assertion'.  This is important in discussion.  I cannot say just because you presuppose it, that makes it untrue, and you cannot prove that it is true by continuing to presuppose its truth in all your replies.  Now onto your reply.

      >>What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical in its description of motivation. The progress of evolution in an
      heirarchial sense is not allowed for.That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this description.

      The
      fallacy here is the presumption
      that evolution is hierarchical when,
      in fact, natural selection (the  main
      evolutionary mechanism in nature
      according to most contemporary
      experts on the subject) is instead
      quite pragmatic and random. 
      Mutations occur, most detrimental,
      some trivial, a few advantageous,
      and the advantageous ones prevail
      over time.  Where's the hierarchy?

      Bobby:
      It is my contention that there is an heirachy of evolution and it fuels my objection to the idea you support.  I can't say what most comtempories on the subject say but I have read three good (well, two good and one not so good) books published since 1990 that hold it to be ridiculous  that random chance and survival of advantageous mutations accounts for evolution of specie.  The long neck of the giraffe is a principle example.  Five simultaneous mutations would have to occur for the leaf collector advantage to survive.  Among them, many times the increased tissue strength in the veins of the legs to keep the larger heart pressure, required to send blood to the brain, from bursting out the lower extremities. This is quite a stretch to believe the old pre-giraffe lucked out.
      As long ago as the thirties, J. G. Bennett, a mathematician and student of Gurdjieff, said the math on the random acquisition of advantage does not come close to working out.
      I believe that the direction of evolution is from matter to mind.    We are part way to mind but the wrinkles are still working out. 
      The evolution of yoga is also described this way.  First Hatha Yoga to straighten the spine and walk erect, etc.  Bhakti Yoga to secure the emotional being and Raja Yoga to correct the mind. 
      Matter to beastiality to mind.   That is the direction.  Once the mind is recognized then the evolution out of mind becomes self generated. As long as the mind conceives itself as an entity and the world it generates as the only world then it cannot resolve its contradictions, misconceptions, and its desire for comfort, power, and meaning.

      I believe there is misconception and contradiction in our culture that will be eradicated by evolution.

      Don't hold your breath.  Evolution
      is by and large a very slow and
      very non-deterministic process.

      Bobby:
      Breath control is exactly what I intend to do.

      Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution out of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the motive hoping to achieve said evolution.

      Evolution is not achieved. 
      Evolution occurs as it will,
      causally related to factors
      beyond the control of humans.

      Bobby:
      That is what I said.  How can comfort be a factor in evolution?  That is my objection.

      That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the fact and not before.

      While you imagine some sort
      of hierarchichal, "spiritual"
      progression you call
      evolution, do/can you imagine
      the next stage being less
      comfortable than your current
      state?  If you knew for a fact
      that the pinnacle of the
      process was actually less
      comfortable from the standpoint
      of mundane, 24/7 incarnate life
      would you be comfortable with
      that fact?                  :-)

      Bobby:
      The idea of spiritual evolution as heirarchal is not novel.  This does not support it in any way but your attitude of wanting to make it seem to be my imagination does not refute it in any way either.  It is my belief.   Just as yours is this comfort thing.

      I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind the unwilling.

      Many find that thought quite comforting, especially those who consider themselves "willing."

      Bobby: 
      Again the presupposition that comfort is the desired end.  Again this presumption does nothing to verify or falsify the claim.  It just restates your assertion.  The reference to "those who consider themselves 'willing', is predjudicial.  We are all unwilling most of the time.  We are pulled when willing and left behind when we are not.


      The Gunas in this context:
      tamas-pleasure (comfort)
      rajas-power
      sattva-meaning
      Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis) meaning will vanquish suffering.

      The quest for power or control
      of any sort is comfort-seeking.

      Bobby:
      Simple Presumption of facts not in evidence.

      J. Krishnamurti called comfort
      "psychological security."  In
      the context of maya and going
      on unobserved, this is very
      close to the taproot of
      suffering -- a deep yearning for
      that which does not exist in
      the manifest universe.

      Bobby:
      I see you as backing up your own statement with the presumption of the truth of your own statement. Your idea is interesting.  But there is something about life I feel that I notice that it does not account for.

      I just hope it is clear now how I differ in my opinion from you and Jody, and Nina. 
      Love
      Bobby G.
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