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Pragmatic Presupposition

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  • texasbg2000
    Hi: There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion I wanted to make clear. So here it is. The search for power is the search for
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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      Hi:

      There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion
      I wanted to make clear. So here it is.

      "The search for power is the search for comfort".

      The statement presupposes comfort is the motivator for the search for
      power. It offers no reasons or factual data.

      Pragmatic presupposition does not assign truth or falsity to an
      assertion. If it is false something about it will be inappopriate.

      What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical in
      its description of motivation. The progress of evolution in an
      heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
      That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this
      description.

      I believe there is misconception and contradiction in our culture
      that will be eradicated by evolution.

      Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution out
      of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the
      motive hoping to achieve said evolution.

      That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the fact
      and not before.

      I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind the
      unwilling.

      The Gunas in this context:
      tamas-pleasure (comfort)
      rajas-power
      sattva-meaning

      Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis)
      meaning will vanquish suffering.

      Love,
      Bobby G.
    • Nina
      ... See a slight reworking of the presentation of the gunas, below... ... Evolution , as you have described it above is an intellectual concept. Evolution ,
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
        <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

        > What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical
        > in its description of motivation. The progress of evolution
        > in an heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
        > That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this
        > description.

        See a slight reworking of the presentation of the gunas, below...

        > Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution out
        > of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the
        > motive hoping to achieve said evolution.

        'Evolution', as you have described it above is an intellectual
        concept. 'Evolution', as it happens, is a universal 'law'... it
        is not within the domain of intellect.

        > That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the
        > fact and not before.

        Perhaps, it is important to note that the unconscious mind
        is motivated entirely by comfort... it is the conscious mind
        that is able to recognize the manifestations 'after the fact'.

        > I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind
        > the unwilling.
        >
        > The Gunas in this context:
        > tamas-pleasure (comfort)
        ****inertia, comfort in 'remaining the same'
        > rajas-power
        ****striving, comfort in movement, also, as regards
        power, comfort in apparent control over
        > sattva-meaning
        ****comfort in finding significance to a life that
        has no significance, other than 'being alive'

        > Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis)
        > meaning will vanquish suffering.

        Hmm, and then what do you have? The ultimate comfort...

        Are we going in circles? ;)

        > Love,
        > Bobby G.

        xo,
        Nina
      • Bruce Morgen
        texasbg2000 wrote: Hi: There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion I wanted to make clear. So here it is. The search for power is the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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          texasbg2000 wrote:
          Hi:
          
          There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion 
          I wanted to make clear.  So here it is.
          
          "The search for power is the search for comfort".
          
          The statement presupposes comfort is the motivator for the search for 
          power. It offers no reasons or factual data.
          
          Pragmatic presupposition does not assign truth or falsity to an 
          assertion.  If it is false something about it will be inappropriate.  
          
          What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical in 
          its description of motivation.  The progress of evolution in an 
          heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
          That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this 
          description. 
            
          The fallacy here is the presumption
          that evolution is hierarchical when,
          in fact, natural selection (the  main
          evolutionary mechanism in nature
          according to most contemporary
          experts on the subject) is instead
          quite pragmatic and random. 
          Mutations occur, most detrimental,
          some trivial, a few advantageous,
          and the advantageous ones prevail
          over time.  Where's the hierarchy?
          I believe there is misconception and contradiction in our culture 
          that will be eradicated by evolution.
            
          Don't hold your breath.  Evolution
          is by and large a very slow and
          very non-deterministic process.

          Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution out 
          of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the 
          motive hoping to achieve said evolution.
            
          Evolution is not achieved. 
          Evolution occurs as it will,
          causally related to factors
          beyond the control of humans.

          That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the fact 
          and not before.
            
          While you imagine some sort
          of hierarchichal, "spiritual"
          progression you call
          evolution, do/can you imagine
          the next stage being less
          comfortable than your current
          state?  If you knew for a fact
          that the pinnacle of the
          process was actually less
          comfortable from the standpoint
          of mundane, 24/7 incarnate life
          would you be comfortable with
          that fact?                  :-)

          I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind the 
          unwilling.
            
          Many find that thought quite 
          comforting, especially those 
          who consider themselves 
          "willing."
          
          The Gunas in this context:
          tamas-pleasure (comfort)
          rajas-power
          sattva-meaning
          
          Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis) 
          meaning will vanquish suffering.
          
            
          The quest for power or control
          of any sort is comfort-seeking. 
          J. Krishnamurti called comfort
          "psychological security."  In
          the context of maya and going
          on unobserved, this is very
          close to the taproot of
          suffering -- a deep yearning for
          that which does not exist in
          the manifest universe.
        • jodyrrr
          ... There is no presupposition. Power brings control over the immediate environment. Control over the environment allows for greater degrees of comfort. ...
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
            <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi:
            >
            > There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an opinion
            > I wanted to make clear. So here it is.
            >
            > "The search for power is the search for comfort".
            >
            > The statement presupposes comfort is the motivator for the search for
            > power. It offers no reasons or factual data.

            There is no presupposition. Power brings control over the
            immediate environment. Control over the environment allows
            for greater degrees of comfort.

            > Pragmatic presupposition does not assign truth or falsity to an
            > assertion. If it is false something about it will be inappopriate.
            >
            > What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical in
            > its description of motivation. The progress of evolution in an
            > heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
            > That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this
            > description.

            Nonsense. Life moves toward the greatest comfort. Mutations
            that arise which are effective adaptations to the current environment--
            that is, allowing for the greatest comfort--are passed on, thereby
            allowing a greater comfort for future generations.

            The drive toward greater comfort *is* the source of evolution.

            > I believe there is misconception and contradiction in our culture
            > that will be eradicated by evolution.

            As long as there are individuals believing they are such and
            acting as such, there will be misconception and contradiction.

            > Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution out
            > of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the
            > motive hoping to achieve said evolution.

            I maintain the whole reason you are on a mission to
            evolve (or stay out of the way of your evolution) is
            because you imagine a greater comfort (though
            meaning, etc.) at the end of your process.

            > That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the fact
            > and not before.
            >
            > I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind the
            > unwilling.

            That idea is comfortable for you.

            > The Gunas in this context:
            > tamas-pleasure (comfort)

            Staying the same is comfortable.

            > rajas-power

            Having control is comfortable.

            > sattva-meaning

            Knowing what's up is comfortable.

            > Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis)
            > meaning will vanquish suffering.
            >
            > Love,
            > Bobby G.

            The drive toward comfort is inescapable, except in the
            imagination. ;)

            --jody.
          • texasbg2000
            ... out ... To see the error of mistaking the Self for the instrument of seeing is the direction evolution must take. ... The unconscious mind is an
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
              > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              >
              > > What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical
              > > in its description of motivation. The progress of evolution
              > > in an heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
              > > That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this
              > > description.
              >
              > See a slight reworking of the presentation of the gunas, below...
              >
              > > Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution
              out
              > > of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the
              > > motive hoping to achieve said evolution.
              >
              > 'Evolution', as you have described it above is an intellectual
              > concept. 'Evolution', as it happens, is a universal 'law'... it
              > is not within the domain of intellect.

              To 'see the error of mistaking the Self for the instrument of seeing"
              is the direction evolution must take.

              >
              > > That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the
              > > fact and not before.
              >
              > Perhaps, it is important to note that the unconscious mind
              > is motivated entirely by comfort... it is the conscious mind
              > that is able to recognize the manifestations 'after the fact'.

              The unconscious mind is an intellectual concept.

              >
              > > I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind
              > > the unwilling.
              > >
              > > The Gunas in this context:
              > > tamas-pleasure (comfort)
              > ****inertia, comfort in 'remaining the same'
              > > rajas-power
              > ****striving, comfort in movement, also, as regards
              > power, comfort in apparent control over
              > > sattva-meaning
              > ****comfort in finding significance to a life that
              > has no significance, other than 'being alive'
              >
              > > Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis)
              > > meaning will vanquish suffering.
              >
              > Hmm, and then what do you have? The ultimate comfort...

              Without discomfort then it is a moot point.

              >
              > Are we going in circles? ;)

              No as long as we do not presume that a conclusion (all roads lead to
              comfort)
              is proof unto itself. See my answer to Bruce.

              Love
              Bobby G.
              >
              > > Love,
              > > Bobby G.
              >
              > xo,
              > Nina
            • texasbg2000
              ... opinion ... for ... inappopriate. ... in ... environment-- ... out ... fact ... the ... Jody, this entire post has nothing but your own presumption of
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi:
                > >
                > > There has been lots of good stuff on this topic but I had an
                opinion
                > > I wanted to make clear. So here it is.
                > >
                > > "The search for power is the search for comfort".
                > >
                > > The statement presupposes comfort is the motivator for the search
                for
                > > power. It offers no reasons or factual data.
                >
                > There is no presupposition. Power brings control over the
                > immediate environment. Control over the environment allows
                > for greater degrees of comfort.
                >
                > > Pragmatic presupposition does not assign truth or falsity to an
                > > assertion. If it is false something about it will be
                inappopriate.
                > >
                > > What I don't like about this idea is that it is purely mechanical
                in
                > > its description of motivation. The progress of evolution in an
                > > heirarchial sense is not allowed for.
                > > That is, a direction for evolution is not included in this
                > > description.
                >
                > Nonsense. Life moves toward the greatest comfort. Mutations
                > that arise which are effective adaptations to the current
                environment--
                > that is, allowing for the greatest comfort--are passed on, thereby
                > allowing a greater comfort for future generations.
                >
                > The drive toward greater comfort *is* the source of evolution.
                >
                > > I believe there is misconception and contradiction in our culture
                > > that will be eradicated by evolution.
                >
                > As long as there are individuals believing they are such and
                > acting as such, there will be misconception and contradiction.
                >
                > > Since I do not know what direction to take to achieve evolution
                out
                > > of misconception then I can not do anything with comfort as the
                > > motive hoping to achieve said evolution.
                >
                > I maintain the whole reason you are on a mission to
                > evolve (or stay out of the way of your evolution) is
                > because you imagine a greater comfort (though
                > meaning, etc.) at the end of your process.
                >
                > > That is, comfort can be said to be the motivator only after the
                fact
                > > and not before.
                > >
                > > I like the idea of spirit pulling the willing and leaving behind
                the
                > > unwilling.
                >
                > That idea is comfortable for you.
                >
                > > The Gunas in this context:
                > > tamas-pleasure (comfort)
                >
                > Staying the same is comfortable.
                >
                > > rajas-power
                >
                > Having control is comfortable.
                >
                > > sattva-meaning
                >
                > Knowing what's up is comfortable.
                >
                > > Leave behind comfort and through power (control of the vrittis)
                > > meaning will vanquish suffering.
                > >
                > > Love,
                > > Bobby G.
                >
                > The drive toward comfort is inescapable, except in the
                > imagination. ;)
                >
                > --jody.

                Jody, this entire post has nothing but your own presumption of being
                right and therefore anyone who has another opinion must not
                understand what you are saying.

                I am good with that. It is just you. I just wanted to make my own
                points about the issue.

                Love
                Bobby G.
              • jodyrrr
                ... wrote: [snip] ... And equally true, your protestations are an attempt to preserve a particular concept you have about spiritual life.
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                  <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

                  [snip]

                  > Jody, this entire post has nothing but your own presumption of being
                  > right and therefore anyone who has another opinion must not
                  > understand what you are saying.
                  >
                  > I am good with that. It is just you. I just wanted to make my own
                  > points about the issue.
                  >
                  > Love
                  > Bobby G.

                  And equally true, your protestations are an attempt to preserve a
                  particular concept you have about spiritual life. I'm good with that.
                  It's just you. ;)

                  love--jody.
                • Nina
                  ... Yep, that s all anybody wants to do - make their own points about the issue. Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee) to not have the final word.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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                    > Jody, this entire post has nothing
                    > but your own presumption of being
                    > right and therefore anyone who has
                    > another opinion must not
                    > understand what you are saying.
                    >
                    > I am good with that. It is just you.
                    > I just wanted to make my own
                    > points about the issue.
                    >
                    > Love
                    > Bobby G.

                    Yep, that's all anybody wants to do -
                    make their own points about the issue.
                    Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee)
                    to not have the final word.

                    Anyway, it will be interesting to see how
                    long this conversation, such as it is, might
                    go on...

                    I have a funny story to share with you all...

                    Every now and then, I receive an invitation
                    from one website or another to take an IQ test.
                    I'm a real sucker for IQ tests, in the way some
                    people are sucker for 'romance tests'. It isn't
                    so much that I want to see what number represents
                    my IQ, though that is interesting, or that I want
                    to see what words represent my particular talent
                    areas, even though those phrases are fun to see,
                    it is more the whole dynamic of using certain,
                    specific questions to determine one's magnitude
                    and aptitude of 'brilliance'. Lol!

                    You ask a certain questions, you get certain
                    answers, and then you wind up with a certain
                    picture of 'what is happening'.

                    Most presuppositions are pretty pragmatic,
                    don't you think?

                    It's a way of getting a firm footing
                    so you can hold the camera still to get a
                    good shot of the scene you're framing.

                    Though I'm tempted, :), I won't go into
                    how getting a firm footing sure does enhance
                    one's feeling of comfort.

                    Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                    view of things is that different from
                    mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                    noticed, however, that you seem to be
                    avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                    a trance word for you, or something?

                    Nina
                  • texasbg2000
                    ... There is also something called semantic presupposition which is a relation between sentences or statement, related to but distinct from entailmnt and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 27, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                      <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                      > > Jody, this entire post has nothing
                      > > but your own presumption of being
                      > > right and therefore anyone who has
                      > > another opinion must not
                      > > understand what you are saying.
                      > >
                      > > I am good with that. It is just you.
                      > > I just wanted to make my own
                      > > points about the issue.
                      > >
                      > > Love
                      > > Bobby G.
                      >
                      > Yep, that's all anybody wants to do -
                      > make their own points about the issue.
                      > Somehow, it is highly uncomfortable (tee,hee)
                      > to not have the final word.
                      >
                      > Anyway, it will be interesting to see how
                      > long this conversation, such as it is, might
                      > go on...
                      >
                      > I have a funny story to share with you all...
                      >
                      > Every now and then, I receive an invitation
                      > from one website or another to take an IQ test.
                      > I'm a real sucker for IQ tests, in the way some
                      > people are sucker for 'romance tests'. It isn't
                      > so much that I want to see what number represents
                      > my IQ, though that is interesting, or that I want
                      > to see what words represent my particular talent
                      > areas, even though those phrases are fun to see,
                      > it is more the whole dynamic of using certain,
                      > specific questions to determine one's magnitude
                      > and aptitude of 'brilliance'. Lol!
                      >
                      > You ask a certain questions, you get certain
                      > answers, and then you wind up with a certain
                      > picture of 'what is happening'.
                      >
                      > Most presuppositions are pretty pragmatic,
                      > don't you think?

                      There is also something called semantic presupposition which
                      is a relation between sentences or statement, related to but distinct
                      from entailmnt and assertion. Such as, "The present king of France
                      is bald" does not entail there is a present king of France but
                      presupposes it. But that type is not what I was griping about.
                      Pragmatic supposition is what a speaker takes to be understood in
                      making an assertion. Since I do not take it to be understood then it
                      holds no sway to me.

                      >
                      > It's a way of getting a firm footing
                      > so you can hold the camera still to get a
                      > good shot of the scene you're framing.
                      >
                      > Though I'm tempted, :), I won't go into
                      > how getting a firm footing sure does enhance
                      > one's feeling of comfort.
                      >
                      > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                      > view of things is that different from
                      > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                      > noticed, however, that you seem to be
                      > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                      > a trance word for you, or something?

                      If you notice it then I will look for it.
                      I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.

                      Love
                      Bobby G.
                      >
                      > Nina
                    • Jason Fishman
                      Nina wrote: Bobby G., I don t really see how your view of things is that different from mine, or Bruce s, or Jody s... I have noticed,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                        Nina <murrkis@...> wrote:
                         
                        Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                        view of things is that different from
                        mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                        noticed, however, that you seem to be
                        avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                        a trance word for you, or something?

                        Nina

                        I'd be curious to know if any view could ever hold anymore validity then any other view?

                        I'd also like to know if anyone has taken into account whether death or fear of an end to being is a comfort seeking process?

                        There is a predictablity factor in the moment for maturity, such as the sun will rise in the east or grass grows or it may rain due to certain cloud cover. All of this based on many unknown and unpredicable events which also includes many known and predictible ones as well. So I would say that with a sense of maturity comes a higher degree of comfort, of which can be irradicated by enough unknown, unpredictable events, which keep us thinking humans searching for more predictablity or comfort level, if you will.

                        I would also conclude there is a certain comfort in the unpredictable factor, such as to say, it's in the hands of nature as to how a species may continue. So if your saying that being a human being is all about being comfortable, then I would say there really isn't a way to determine such a thing. Since people tend to be extremely uncomfortable during peaks in unpredictable events, such as the development of cancer, a car accident, lighting strike, etc.

                        I see posts here about evolution and thus far, there is really no complete record of any species evolving from some other form. There are huge gaps between even prehistoric finds and the current state of a species, as if there was a spontanious burst from one form to another. There is a presupposition that we are missing pieces and calling it evolution. We'll I'm no expert, but from what I've read and seen, that seems to be the case.

                        Anyway, to tie that into the first question is to say that most information is readily available to those wishing to study and regardless a veiwpoint thus far isn't backed up by making assumptions, but by having a higher degree of predictablity, neither of which supposes that one would be more comforted within facts.
                         
                        One thing is certain, it takes a very long time to grow/build and mearly moments to destroy. I'm not sure where anyone would ever find comfort in that beyond a certain predictablity.
                         
                        Peace and Love


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                      • Nina
                        ... What does charisma have to do with this discussion, and why would it be so repugnant? Nina
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                          > > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                          > > view of things is that different from
                          > > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                          > > noticed, however, that you seem to be
                          > > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                          > > a trance word for you, or something?
                          >
                          > If you notice it then I will look for it.
                          > I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.
                          >
                          > Love
                          > Bobby G.
                          > >
                          > > Nina

                          What does charisma have to do with this
                          discussion, and why would it be so
                          repugnant?

                          Nina
                        • medit8ionsociety
                          Nina wrote: snip And I find charisma repugnant. ... Hi Nina, Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did he make others
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                            "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:


                            snip

                            And I find charisma repugnant.
                            > >
                            > > Love
                            > > Bobby G.
                            > > >
                            > > > Nina:
                            >
                            > What does charisma have to do with this
                            > discussion, and why would it be so
                            > repugnant?
                            >
                            > Nina

                            Hi Nina,

                            Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                            he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                            as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                            other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                            conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                            necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                            case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.

                            Peace and blessings,
                            Bob
                          • texasbg2000
                            ... Hi Nina: Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron. Charisma is repugnant or at
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > > Bobby G., I don't really see how your
                              > > > view of things is that different from
                              > > > mine, or Bruce's, or Jody's... I have
                              > > > noticed, however, that you seem to be
                              > > > avoiding use of the word comfort. Is that
                              > > > a trance word for you, or something?
                              > >
                              > > If you notice it then I will look for it.
                              > > I am not prone to trances though. And I find charisma repugnant.
                              > >
                              > > Love
                              > > Bobby G.
                              > > >
                              > > > Nina
                              >
                              > What does charisma have to do with this
                              > discussion, and why would it be so
                              > repugnant?
                              >
                              > Nina

                              Hi Nina:

                              Sorry to be so opaque about the charisma thing. I threw it in
                              because I thought it was funny. Sort of an oxymoron.

                              Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                              influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
                              of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                              Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                              If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal with someone who
                              knew you were doing the thing they wanted for the wrong reasons then
                              you understand. Why blame the person who is seeking comfort for
                              themselves by screwing you? It is like blaming an animal for wanting
                              to eat you. Why not look at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as
                              undesirable, and set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                              by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.

                              I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the convincing tone he
                              took when speaking. He was talking about his guru's magic. F. Lee
                              Bailey, the attorney, looked into a tv camera and said, "I don't
                              believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist) took one thin dime", and I
                              believed him for an instant. It is a form of propaganda.

                              The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                              communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                              Thanks for asking,
                              Love
                              Bobby G.
                            • texasbg2000
                              ... I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win last night. Love Bobby G.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > snip
                                >
                                > And I find charisma repugnant.
                                > > >
                                > > > Love
                                > > > Bobby G.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Nina:
                                > >
                                > > What does charisma have to do with this
                                > > discussion, and why would it be so
                                > > repugnant?
                                > >
                                > > Nina
                                >
                                > Hi Nina,
                                >
                                > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                                > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                                > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                                > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                                > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                                > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                                > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
                                >
                                > Peace and blessings,
                                > Bob

                                I got a nice chuckle from you insight here Bob. Congrats on the win
                                last night.

                                Love
                                Bobby G.
                              • Sharlene
                                ... Why were they on them?
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                                  > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.

                                  Why were they on them?
                                • texasbg2000
                                  ... Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting them off also. Love Bobby G.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 28, 2003
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sharlene
                                    <sharlene@l...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                                    >
                                    > Why were they on them?

                                    Heh heh, what a smart ass you are. You could have mentioned getting
                                    them off also.
                                    Love
                                    Bobby G.
                                  • Nina
                                    ... Hmm, I don t know much about football, though I can recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe). Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken: That
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                      > snip
                                      >
                                      > And I find charisma repugnant.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Love
                                      > > > Bobby G.

                                      > > What does charisma have to do with this
                                      > > discussion, and why would it be so
                                      > > repugnant?
                                      > >
                                      > > Nina

                                      > Hi Nina,
                                      >
                                      > Did you ever see Neon Deon Sanders play football? Boy did
                                      > he make others uncomfortable! His charisma was undeniable,
                                      > as was his talent, but he was probably more repugnant than any
                                      > other other person ever to play football. So, a semi-interesting
                                      > conclusion could be made about how charisma and skill are not
                                      > necessarily survival skills. As a matter of probable fact, in his
                                      > case, he was the player other teams wanted to hurt the most.
                                      >
                                      > Peace and blessings,
                                      > Bob

                                      Hmm, I don't know much about football, though I can
                                      recognize the shape of a footballball (hehe).

                                      Anyway, it seems that a different view may be taken:

                                      That the only thing that counts, as regards Neon Deon
                                      Sanders and his manifestation of 'survival skills' on
                                      the football field, is that NDS (ohmygod - this must
                                      be a sign!) use his considerable repulsion, talent and
                                      skill to bring glory, and thus comfort and survival,
                                      to his own team.

                                      It doesn't matter one ounce that the other team finds
                                      him repulsive, or that fans find him repulsive,
                                      or that the other teams might want to hurt him -
                                      what matters is 'what is happening':

                                      "Are we winning?"

                                      Football, and other sports, are actually a bit more
                                      frank about this underlying motivation than other
                                      'arts'.

                                      Nina

                                      P.S. Yea, it didn't go over my head that NDS was
                                      spoken about in past-tense; I chose to bring
                                      the example into the present-tense.
                                    • Nina
                                      ... Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note that there is a definition (personal
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                        > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                                        > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered regardless
                                        > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                                        > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                                        > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                                        > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                                        > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                                        > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                                        > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                                        > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                                        > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                                        > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                                        >
                                        > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                                        > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                                        > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                                        > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                                        > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                                        > It is a form of propaganda.
                                        >
                                        > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                                        > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                                        > Thanks for asking,
                                        > Love
                                        > Bobby G.

                                        Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                                        means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                                        that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                                        enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                                        terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                                        the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                                        Thus, the repulsion.

                                        http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                                        Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                                        and even grows in power?

                                        Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                                        when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                                        around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                                        lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                                        abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                                        to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                                        That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                                        the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                                        that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                                        in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                                        like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                                        Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                                        Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                                        you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                                        Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                                        repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                                        'take it away!'

                                        big ole grin,
                                        Nina
                                      • texasbg2000
                                        ... regardless ... Nina: That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of the archaic meaning of the word glamour . ... Yes. ... I take your point
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 29, 2003
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                                          <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                          > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                                          > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                                          regardless
                                          > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                                          > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                                          > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                                          > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                                          > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                                          > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                                          > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                                          > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                                          > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                                          > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this discusson.
                                          > >
                                          > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                                          > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                                          > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                                          > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                                          > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                                          > > It is a form of propaganda.
                                          > >
                                          > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                                          > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                                          > > Thanks for asking,
                                          > > Love
                                          > > Bobby G.
                                          >
                                          > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                                          > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                                          > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                                          > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                                          > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                                          > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                                          > Thus, the repulsion.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma

                                          Nina:
                                          That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                                          the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                                          >
                                          > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                                          > and even grows in power?

                                          Yes.

                                          >
                                          > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                                          > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                                          > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                                          > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                                          > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                                          > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.

                                          I take your point here, Nina.

                                          > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                                          > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                                          > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                                          > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                                          > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...

                                          That follows nicely from what you say above.

                                          >
                                          > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.

                                          I think it is useful to
                                          understanding to be repulsed by charisma. It allows one
                                          to look behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                                          >
                                          > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                                          > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)

                                          I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                                          being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                                          comfort may not be experienced
                                          so the comfort of believing it will,
                                          is canceled by the disappointment.

                                          I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                                          do not like to influence people.

                                          And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                                          Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                                          >
                                          > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                                          > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                                          > 'take it away!'

                                          Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                                          like to think laterally and keep a good humor.

                                          Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                                          to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                                          disrespect the participants.

                                          The tendency to be
                                          sucked in by false gurus can be canceled if we recognize that
                                          tendency in ourselves and develop the sense of discomfort when
                                          we feel charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                                          Love,
                                          Bobby G.


                                          >
                                          > big ole grin,
                                          > Nina
                                        • Nina
                                          ... discusson. ... Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word really lends another layer to the way glamour is presented today... particularly
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 31, 2003
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                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                            <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                                            > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                            > > > Charisma is repugnant or at least repellent to me because it
                                            > > > influences the mind. I think ideas should be considered
                                            > regardless
                                            > > > of personality. Lawyers of great charisma get off criminals.
                                            > > > Religious leaders just outright lie and get by with it.
                                            > > > If anyone out there has ever been sucked into a deal
                                            > > > with someone who knew you were doing the thing they wanted
                                            > > > for the wrong reasons then you understand. Why blame the person
                                            > > > who is seeking comfort for themselves by screwing you? It is
                                            > > > like blaming an animal for wanting to eat you. Why not look
                                            > > > at the personal magnetism, catalogue it as undesirable, and
                                            > > > set up a signaling system in yourself to be repelled
                                            > > > by the pull when you feel it? I felt that pull in this
                                            discusson.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I heard Ram Das on tape once and was amazed at the
                                            > > > convincing tone he took when speaking. He was talking about
                                            > > > his guru's magic. F. Lee Bailey, the attorney, looked into a
                                            > > > tv camera and said, "I don't believe Jim Baker (the Evangelist)
                                            > > > took one thin dime", and I believed him for an instant.
                                            > > > It is a form of propaganda.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The bad thing in this is that it is misuse of the gift of
                                            > > > communication. What could have been done with that gift was not.
                                            > > > Thanks for asking,
                                            > > > Love
                                            > > > Bobby G.
                                            > >
                                            > > Hmm, well, just to be sure I understood what charisma
                                            > > means, I looked it up. I think it is interesting to note
                                            > > that there is a definition (personal attractiveness that
                                            > > enables you to influence others), but it is the 'related
                                            > > terms' at the bottom of the page that seem to indicate
                                            > > the flavorings this word, charisma, can carry.
                                            > > Thus, the repulsion.
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/charisma
                                            >
                                            > Nina:
                                            > That is quite a list of related terms. They remind me of
                                            > the archaic meaning of the word "glamour".

                                            Huh, yes, they do! Knowing the history of that word
                                            really lends another layer to the way 'glamour' is
                                            presented today... particularly 'false glamour' or
                                            'camp glamour'... in instances where glamour is
                                            consciously taken on as a mask.

                                            It is interesting how even when one doesn't intellectually
                                            or consciously make those connections to archaic meanings,
                                            those meanings still have a resonance. Astounding!

                                            What fun, thanks, Bobby!

                                            > > Have you ever noticed that what you resist persists,
                                            > > and even grows in power?
                                            >
                                            > Yes.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > Looking at the trail of this conversation, I see that
                                            > > when Bobby G. steps forward to disprove the theories
                                            > > around the will to comfort, that his opponents (jus'
                                            > > lahk in foobahl, man!) step forward out of the cyber
                                            > > abyss to prove and reprove. The more Bobby G. attempts
                                            > > to disprove, the more the opponents prove and reprove.
                                            >
                                            > I take your point here, Nina.
                                            >
                                            > > That's a really interesting foundational piece to
                                            > > the role charisma might play in 'convincing'...
                                            > > that when one recognizes the appearance of charisma
                                            > > in another, that it is only one's own charisma reflected...
                                            > > like the moon reflecting the light of the sun...
                                            >
                                            > That follows nicely from what you say above.
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > Repulsion is a flavoring, charisma is 'the way things are'.
                                            >
                                            > I think it is useful to understanding to be
                                            > repulsed by charisma. It allows one to look
                                            > behind the cloak and not led around by the nose.

                                            Oh yes, agreed about looking behind the cloak and
                                            not being led around by the nose. I guess I wouldn't
                                            use the word repulsed; perhaps personally I would use
                                            the word 'recognition'. Actually, charisma and its
                                            relative, glamour, are wonderfully playful embodiments;
                                            I can't find anything inherently wrong with those
                                            embodiments. The trick is not avoiding them, but
                                            understanding them as 'play'...

                                            > > Charisma, lol, is another tool to comfort. Which, btw,
                                            > > you seem to be avoiding like a locust plague. :)
                                            >
                                            > I cannot see how it is a tool for the person
                                            > being influenced if they are misled. The anticipated
                                            > comfort may not be experienced
                                            > so the comfort of believing it will,
                                            > is canceled by the disappointment.
                                            >
                                            > I avoid it in myself as well as others. I
                                            > do not like to influence people.
                                            >
                                            > And I don't like to influence myself either, whatever that means.
                                            > Maybe it is overthinking an issue.

                                            The key to 'being misled' is that one doesn't
                                            realize one is being misled. In that, there can
                                            be the comfort of ignorance. Also, a person can be
                                            blinded by their desire for comfort, such that
                                            one is more easily misled.

                                            At any rate, comfort may be canceled by the
                                            realization that one has been misled, but the
                                            desire for comfort is not canceled by such a
                                            realization.

                                            Here is another way of thinking about charisma
                                            and glamour: shamanism. Essentially, shamanism
                                            is a manner of connecting oneself or another
                                            to an overlooked or under-realized aspect. It is
                                            influence, but not necessarily of a political
                                            sort. (I sense you are thinking of a political
                                            influence...)

                                            Also, I think of your paintings and where they
                                            take the person who looks upon them... that is
                                            a sort of influence, if only by sharing out your
                                            perspective and making it available for another
                                            to 'take on'. Passive or active, it is influence.

                                            In fluence... In fluid ence... essence of fluid...
                                            that's an interesting word... flowing like water.
                                            Can it be contained? By what means? And to what
                                            degree? Or, does it flow freely, like water
                                            through my fingers? Or may I drink it in, like
                                            water from a cup?

                                            Or, is it more like the air we breath, and the
                                            fluidity of our breaths, moving in and out, not
                                            just within my body, but yours... we all breath
                                            the same air, and so, we are all arising from
                                            that same influence... how can I say I do not
                                            like to influence others? I am part and parcel
                                            to that influence...

                                            > > Ok, I'm mainly just pulling your chain (no, it isn't
                                            > > repulsive to me), so I'll step down now and let you
                                            > > 'take it away!'
                                            >
                                            > Well I always like talking to you. I guess because you
                                            > like to think laterally and keep a good humor.
                                            >
                                            > Charisma is a burr under my saddle. TV ads that command me
                                            > to do as I am told in a tone intended to stimulate cause me to
                                            > disrespect the participants.

                                            I see what you're saying. Still, in the broader view,
                                            charisma is no biggy...

                                            > The tendency to be sucked in by false gurus
                                            > can be canceled if we recognize that
                                            > tendency in ourselves and develop the
                                            > sense of discomfort when we feel
                                            > charisma or undue persuasiveness.

                                            Hmm... I can see that (the tendency towards)
                                            'excessive application of charisma or undue will
                                            towards persuasiveness' might rebound into
                                            feelings of discomfort or repulsion, but
                                            I'm not following that one should develop
                                            the sense of discomfort one feels in
                                            recognizing that tendency. Quite the opposite -
                                            I say recognize away, but develop a broader
                                            sense of how this figures into the big picture,
                                            rather than condemning it, and reinforcing that
                                            condemnation with feelings of discomfort.
                                            Ah, am I tending towards comfort? Lol...

                                            What is all this worry about getting sucked
                                            in by false gurus? ;) I say, let's apply one
                                            of Frankl's logotherapy techniques:

                                            What's the worst that could possibly happen
                                            by getting sucked in by a false guru? Flesh
                                            that out fully, put yourself in it (eek,
                                            shamanic!), and then ask the question:

                                            How bad can this be?

                                            > > big ole OM
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