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innate drive towards wholeness

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  • Nina
    Here is another way of seeing something that has been debated recently: The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored... Thus certain persons find
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 24, 2003
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      Here is another way of seeing something that has
      been debated recently:

      "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
      Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
      the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
      even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
      is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
      namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
      to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
      the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
      this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
      wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
      inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
      trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
      capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
      organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
      and Transformation, pp. 339f.

      The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
      and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
      context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
      that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.

      Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
      a hope that wholeness will be comfortable. By the time one
      uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
      close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

      This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
      may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
      or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
      is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
      expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
      that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

      Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
      and find comfort within ourselves.

      comfy,
      Nina
    • jodyrrr
      ... The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek comfort. I d say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole imagines--consciously or
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 24, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > Here is another way of seeing something that has
        > been debated recently:
        >
        > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
        > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
        > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
        > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
        > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
        > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
        > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
        > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
        > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
        > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
        > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
        > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
        > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
        > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
        > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
        >
        > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
        > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
        > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
        > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
        >
        > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
        > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.

        The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
        comfort.

        I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
        imagines--consciously or unconsciously--that there is
        comfort there.

        > By the time one
        > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
        > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

        It's not about "one's" sense of anything. The body moves
        toward comfort. Life moves toward comfort. Individual
        cells move toward comfort.

        > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
        > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
        > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
        > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
        > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
        > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

        This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
        of what we are doing. Like a decision that comes a full half
        second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
        comfort is working underneath all our imagined motivations.

        > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
        > and find comfort within ourselves.
        >
        > comfy,
        > Nina

        May all come to know there ain't no where to go.

        --jody.
      • Jason Fishman
        Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical.... Jody, i ve watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your posts, but haven t had a
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 24, 2003
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          Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
           
          Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is done, I'll take a moment.
           
          In general, people don't look for comfort. If at some point one is seeking comfort, then one is seeking comfort in a relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain, then comfort is key. There are quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or being in an unknown area, not comfortable in a certain setting.
           
          If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor, generally speaking.
           
          What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort, is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play anywhere.
           
          Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are not co-dependent.
           
          Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality, philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even duality is a dud for the most part.
           
          Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable, seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/experiences new to them.
           
          That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday season!!
           
          Peace and Love

          jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > Here is another way of seeing something that has
          > been debated recently:
          >
          > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
          > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
          > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
          > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
          > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
          > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
          > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
          > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
          > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
          > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
          > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
          > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
          > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
          > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
          > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
          >
          > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
          > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
          > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
          > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
          >
          > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
          > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.

          The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
          comfort.

          I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
          imagines--consciously or unconsciously--that there is
          comfort there.

          > By the time one
          > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
          > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

          It's not about "one's" sense of anything.  The body moves
          toward comfort.  Life moves toward comfort.  Individual
          cells move toward comfort.

          > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
          > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
          > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
          > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
          > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
          > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

          This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
          of what we are doing.  Like a decision that comes a full half
          second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
          comfort is working underneath all our imagined motivations.

          > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
          > and find comfort within ourselves.
          >
          > comfy,
          > Nina

          May all come to know there ain't no where to go.

          --jody.



          Yahoo! Groups Links


          Do you Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square

        • Bruce Morgen
          I dunno, Jason -- yours is the best refutation of Jodyji s thesis so far and imo it isn t really very effective. I don t see the quest for meaning as anywhere
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 24, 2003
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            I dunno, Jason -- yours is the
            best refutation of Jodyji's
            thesis so far and imo it isn't
            really very effective.  I don't
            see the quest for meaning as
            anywhere near as prevalent as
            the drive for comfort, which
            seems to be our animal nature
            at work, while the meaning
            quest is existential, requires
            considerable intellect, and is
            really a subset of comfort
            seeking.  Even extreme thrill-
            seeking, which is afaik
            exclusive to (a very small
            faction of) humanity seems to
            be a mere overlay, an
            abberation appearing in rare
            cases where people aren't
            comfortable with themselves
            (largely for cultural and/or
            psycho-sexual reasons) unless
            there is an unusual degree of
            risk-based stimulation in play. 
            When it comes to prevalence,
            comfort wins hands-down over
            existential angst and risky
            stimulation addictions,
            which imo aren't nearly as
            universal in our species.

            Jason Fishman wrote:
            Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
             
            Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is done, I'll take a moment.
             
            In general, people don't look for comfort. If at some point one is seeking comfort, then one is seeking comfort in a relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain, then comfort is key. There are quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or being in an unknown area, not comfortable in a certain setting.
             
            If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor, generally speaking.
             
            What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort, is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play anywhere.
             
            Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are not co-dependent.
             
            Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality, philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even duality is a dud for the most part.
             
            Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable, seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/experiences new to them.
             
            That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday season!!
             
            Peace and Love

            jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
            > Here is another way of seeing something that has
            > been debated recently:
            >
            > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
            > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
            > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
            > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
            > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
            > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
            > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
            > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
            > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
            > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
            > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
            > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
            > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
            > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
            > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
            >
            > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
            > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
            > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
            > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
            >
            > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
            > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.

            The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
            comfort.

            I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
            imagines--consciously or unconsciously--that there is
            comfort there.

            > By the time one
            > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
            > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

            It's not about "one's" sense of anything.  The body moves
            toward comfort.  Life moves toward comfort.  Individual
            cells move toward comfort.

            > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
            > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
            > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
            > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
            > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
            > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

            This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
            of what we are doing.  Like a decision that comes a full half
            second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
            comfort is working underneath all our imagined motivations.

            > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
            > and find comfort within ourselves.
            >
            > comfy,
            > Nina

            May all come to know there ain't no where to go.

            --jody.


          • Jason Fishman
            Hi Bruce, Bruce Morgen wrote: I dunno, Jason -- yours is the best refutation of Jodyji s thesis so far and imo it isn t really very
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 25, 2003
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              Hi Bruce,

              Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:


              I dunno, Jason -- yours is the
              best refutation of Jodyji's
              thesis so far and imo it isn't
              really very effective. 

              Actually, I wasn't refuting Jodi's comfort thesis. Survival (or perpetuation of a species) is really anything but comfortable and essencially the strive to keep the body movin' seems to be the baseline. Although human beings with their social orders don't tend to do much of the basic survival techniques these days, there is still the rat race going on and it's still about surviving within a personal/societal status qou. So if one is going to lump the motivations of any living species, it would be more appropriate to say, it's all about survival or perpetuation of the species, which can be about a plethera of yearnings. If it's all about comfort, then I would say that I have it licked, for the most part.

              I don't
              see the quest for meaning as
              anywhere near as prevalent as
              the drive for comfort, which
              seems to be our animal nature
              at work, while the meaning
              quest is existential, requires
              considerable intellect, and is
              really a subset of comfort
              seeking. 

              My whole post was about that it's not simply a plight for comfort. I see what you mean, meaning can bring comfort, but it can also be pretty uncomfy as well. There are quite a few folks that believe that in death, thats it, not a very comforting or meaningful scenario. I'm not too concerned, but there was a time for me that it was all about trying to figure that out, attempting to gain more comfort by knowing something about my demise. Once the basic needs are met which are the survival needs, then one can be comfortable and seek for pleasure or excitement. Really what I was getting at is that I live mostly day to day, just to see whats next and being uncomfy can be part of that.

              Even extreme thrill-
              seeking, which is afaik
              exclusive to (a very small
              faction of) humanity seems to
              be a mere overlay, an
              abberation appearing in rare
              cases where people aren't
              comfortable with themselves
              (largely for cultural and/or
              psycho-sexual reasons) unless
              there is an unusual degree of
              risk-based stimulation in play. 

              Yes, I agree and wasn't disagreeing with the comfort scenerio. I've done quite a large amount of thrill seeking myself, sky diving, rock climbing, cliff diving, ramp skateboarding, deep sea dives, parasailing etc. And for me those aren't about any type of comfort, not in the process of the experience or the outcome. For me it's about sensation, facing injury, enjoying the thrill, really just the experience of being alive to the extreme. Would I partake in these things if I wasn't comfortable as far as survival needs being met?; prolly not, but if it ment my survival to do these things, then I'd certainly do them. Fact is I could just be a couch potato and be quite comfy, aside from a lil gas :-)

               
              When it comes to prevalence,
              comfort wins hands-down over
              existential angst and risky
              stimulation addictions,
              which imo aren't nearly as
              universal in our species.

              Again I do not disagree, as a matter of fact, once the basic survial needs are met it can be quite comfortable. All I'm saying is that comfort seeking isn't the only drive at play, not for the human genome or the entire rest of the animal kingdom. I didn't mean to imply that living is all about seeking meaning either, although my post did infere that to some extent. I was using meaning as one other process of experience that is occuring within a human individual and doesn't neccesarily go hand in hand with comfort, also neither experience seeking, and basic survival/perpetuation of a species. I tend to shy away from any sort of living to be about one specific answer and to me, being comfortable at the moment, it's not about being more comfortable for me.

              Peace and Love

              Jason Fishman wrote:

              Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
               
              Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is done, I'll take a moment.
               
              In general, people don't look for comfort. If at some point one is seeking comfort, then one is seeking comfort in a relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain, then comfort is key. There are quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or being in an unknown area, not comfortable in a certain setting.
               
              If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor, generally speaking.
               
              What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort, is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play anywhere.
               
              Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are not co-dependent.
               
              Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality, philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even duality is a dud for the most part.
               
              Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable, seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/experiences new to them.
               
              That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday season!!
               
              Peace and Love

              jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > Here is another way of seeing something that has
              > been debated recently:
              >
              > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
              > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
              > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
              > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
              > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
              > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
              > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
              > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
              > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
              > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
              > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
              > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
              > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
              > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
              > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
              >
              > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
              > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
              > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
              > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
              >
              > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
              > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.

              The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
              comfort.

              I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
              imagines--consciously or unconsciously--that there is
              comfort there.

              > By the time one
              > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
              > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

              It's not about "one's" sense of anything.  The body moves
              toward comfort.  Life moves toward comfort.  Individual
              cells move toward comfort.

              > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
              > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
              > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
              > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
              > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
              > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

              This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
              of what we are doing.  Like a decision that comes a full half
              second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
              comfort is working underneath all our imagined motivations.

              > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
              > and find comfort within ourselves.
              >
              > comfy,
              > Nina

              May all come to know there ain't no where to go.

              --jody.





              Yahoo! Groups Links


              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square

            • Nina
              ... Hey, Bruce, Once again, your words disappear into the ether! Fitting... At any rate, you mentioned (I seem to recall) that the drive towards meaning is
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 25, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
                <editor@j...> wrote:
                >

                Hey, Bruce,

                Once again, your words disappear into the ether! Fitting...

                At any rate, you mentioned (I seem to recall) that the
                drive towards meaning is intellectual, in the way it
                (only?) addresses existential angst.

                Hmm!

                Well, may I offer up a couple of considerations:

                Cave paintings. Were they intellectual forays into
                the nature of life and death? Were they prayers
                of the 'draw it and they will come' sort? Were they
                entreaties to the spirits for a good hunt? (Ah,
                we will probably never know, but isn't it interesting
                how we lend so many different meanings to those
                paintings? Is it our intellect or our gut that
                is driving that will to know, which is, at its root,
                a will to know 'our self'?)

                Shamanism, which is a modality that relies heavily
                on significance / meaning, is not so intellectual,
                and doesn't always confront existential angst.

                Hey, and it's Christmas Day. Another great example of
                how existential angst (oh, god, the sun is receding
                each day, will it ever come back?!) blends with
                comfort of a different sort (oh, God, you've given
                us your son!). A midwinter enlightenment...

                Comfort and meaning are interwoven, inseperable...
                what's the big debate? :)

                Nina
              • Harvey Schneider
                Hi Jason, I think that what you have shown is that if the word comfort is used to cover all the different motivators in life it becomes stretched beyond any
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 25, 2003
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                  Hi Jason,
                  I think that what you have shown is that if the word
                  comfort is used to cover all the different motivators
                  in life it becomes stretched beyond any reasonable
                  limits. 
                  Have a wonderful New Year filled with Love and Truth.
                  Harvey
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, December 25, 2003 7:31 AM
                  Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: comforting/bruce


                  Hi Bruce,

                  Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:


                  I dunno, Jason -- yours is the
                  best refutation of Jodyji's
                  thesis so far and imo it isn't
                  really very effective. 

                  Actually, I wasn't refuting Jodi's comfort thesis. Survival (or perpetuation of a species) is really anything but comfortable and essencially the strive to keep the body movin' seems to be the baseline. Although human beings with their social orders don't tend to do much of the basic survival techniques these days, there is still the rat race going on and it's still about surviving within a personal/societal status qou. So if one is going to lump the motivations of any living species, it would be more appropriate to say, it's all about survival or perpetuation of the species, which can be about a plethera of yearnings. If it's all about comfort, then I would say that I have it licked, for the most part.

                  I don't
                  see the quest for meaning as
                  anywhere near as prevalent as
                  the drive for comfort, which
                  seems to be our animal nature
                  at work, while the meaning
                  quest is existential, requires
                  considerable intellect, and is
                  really a subset of comfort
                  seeking. 

                  My whole post was about that it's not simply a plight for comfort. I see what you mean, meaning can bring comfort, but it can also be pretty uncomfy as well. There are quite a few folks that believe that in death, thats it, not a very comforting or meaningful scenario. I'm not too concerned, but there was a time for me that it was all about trying to figure that out, attempting to gain more comfort by knowing something about my demise. Once the basic needs are met which are the survival needs, then one can be comfortable and seek for pleasure or excitement. Really what I was getting at is that I live mostly day to day, just to see whats next and being uncomfy can be part of that.

                  Even extreme thrill-
                  seeking, which is afaik
                  exclusive to (a very small
                  faction of) humanity seems to
                  be a mere overlay, an
                  abberation appearing in rare
                  cases where people aren't
                  comfortable with themselves
                  (largely for cultural and/or
                  psycho-sexual reasons) unless
                  there is an unusual degree of
                  risk-based stimulation in play. 

                  Yes, I agree and wasn't disagreeing with the comfort scenerio. I've done quite a large amount of thrill seeking myself, sky diving, rock climbing, cliff diving, ramp skateboarding, deep sea dives, parasailing etc. And for me those aren't about any type of comfort, not in the process of the experience or the outcome. For me it's about sensation, facing injury, enjoying the thrill, really just the experience of being alive to the extreme. Would I partake in these things if I wasn't comfortable as far as survival needs being met?; prolly not, but if it ment my survival to do these things, then I'd certainly do them. Fact is I could just be a couch potato and be quite comfy, aside from a lil gas :-)


                  When it comes to prevalence,
                  comfort wins hands-down over
                  existential angst and risky
                  stimulation addictions,
                  which imo aren't nearly as
                  universal in our species.

                  Again I do not disagree, as a matter of fact, once the basic survial needs are met it can be quite comfortable. All I'm saying is that comfort seeking isn't the only drive at play, not for the human genome or the entire rest of the animal kingdom. I didn't mean to imply that living is all about seeking meaning either, although my post did infere that to some extent. I was using meaning as one other process of experience that is occuring within a human individual and doesn't neccesarily go hand in hand with comfort, also neither experience seeking, and basic survival/perpetuation of a species. I tend to shy away from any sort of living to be about one specific answer and to me, being comfortable at the moment, it's not about being more comfortable for me.

                  Peace and Love

                  Jason Fishman wrote:

                  Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
                   
                  Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is done, I'll take a moment.
                   
                  In general, people don't look for comfort. If at some point one is seeking comfort, then one is seeking comfort in a relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain, then comfort is key. There are quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or being in an unknown area, not comfortable in a certain setting.
                   
                  If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor, generally speaking.
                   
                  What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort, is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play anywhere.
                   
                  Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are not co-dependent.
                   
                  Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality, philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even duality is a dud for the most part.
                   
                  Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable, seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/experiences new to them.
                   
                  That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday season!!
                   
                  Peace and Love

                  jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  > Here is another way of seeing something that has
                  > been debated recently:
                  >
                  > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
                  > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
                  > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
                  > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
                  > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
                  > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
                  > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
                  > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken! , even if
                  > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
                  > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
                  > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
                  > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
                  > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
                  > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
                  > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
                  >
                  > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
                  > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
                  > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
                  > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
                  >
                  > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
                  > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.

                  The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
                  comfort.

                  I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
                  imagines--co! nsciously or unconsciously--that there is
                  comfort there.

                  > By the time one
                  > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
                  > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?

                  It's not about "one's" sense of anything.  The body moves
                  toward comfort.  Life moves toward comfort.  Individual
                  cells move toward comfort.

                  > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
                  > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
                  > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
                  > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
                  > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
                  > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?

                  This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
                  of what we are doing.  Like a decision that comes a full half
                  second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
                  comfort ! is working underneath all our imagined motivations.

                  > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
                  > and find comfort within ourselves.
                  >
                  > comfy,
                  > Nina

                  May all come to know there ain't no where to go.

                  --jody.





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                • jodyrrr
                  ... posts, but haven t had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is done, I ll take a moment. ... People don t have to look for comfort.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 25, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                    <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                    > Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
                    >
                    > Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your
                    posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is
                    done, I'll take a moment.
                    >
                    > In general, people don't look for comfort.

                    People don't have to look for comfort. *LIFE* looks for comfort.
                    We as people are inextricably caught up in this. All our underlying
                    motivations are tied to comfort.

                    > If at some point one is seeking comfort, then one is seeking comfort in a
                    relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain, then comfort is key. There are
                    quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or being in an unknown area, not
                    comfortable in a certain setting.

                    But depression *IS* comfort. It may not be a healthy kind of comfort,
                    but depression is the brain's biochemical answer to difficult situations.

                    I've spent a decent-sized chunk of my life in some kind of
                    depression. There was a kind of comfort there. It wasn't a
                    very comfortable kind of comfort, but there's a kind of joy
                    in the melancholy experience.

                    > If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type
                    answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything
                    but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor,
                    generally speaking.

                    It is in my use of the term comfort. Comfort for me is life's having
                    everything taken care of. Finding pleasure and avoiding pain is
                    pure comfort seeking in action, according to the way I'm using the
                    term.

                    We like excitement because it brings us joy, and that is comfort.

                    > What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which
                    changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort,
                    is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play
                    anywhere.

                    Name any human or animal behavior, and I will show you how
                    it is actually comfort seeking.

                    > Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a
                    three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and
                    affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are
                    not co-dependent.
                    >
                    > Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to
                    try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality,
                    philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life
                    and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even
                    duality is a dud for the most part.
                    >
                    > Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable,
                    seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/
                    experiences new to them.
                    >
                    > That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday
                    season!!
                    >
                    > Peace and Love

                    [snip]
                  • jodyrrr
                    ... Think about it. You are an animal. What do you need? Food, water, shelter, protection, warmth, etc. When you have these things you are comfortable. You
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 25, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                      <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Bruce,
                      >
                      > Bruce Morgen <editor@j...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I dunno, Jason -- yours is the
                      > best refutation of Jodyji's
                      > thesis so far and imo it isn't
                      > really very effective.
                      >
                      > Actually, I wasn't refuting Jodi's comfort thesis. Survival (or perpetuation of a
                      > species) is really anything but comfortable and essencially the strive to keep the
                      > body movin' seems to be the baseline.

                      Think about it. You are an animal. What do you need? Food, water, shelter,
                      protection, warmth, etc. When you have these things you are comfortable.
                      You many have to endure various discomforts in order to obtain these
                      essentials, but the bottom line is that you exist to procure these things,
                      and what these things provide ultimately, is comfort.

                      > Although human beings with their social orders don't tend to do much of the basic
                      > survival techniques these days, there is still the rat race going on and it's still about
                      > surviving within a personal/societal status qou. So if one is going to lump the
                      > motivations of any living species, it would be more appropriate to say, it's all about
                      > survival or perpetuation of the species, which can be about a plethera of yearnings.
                      > If it's all about comfort, then I would say that I have it licked, for the most part.
                      >
                      > I don't
                      > see the quest for meaning as
                      > anywhere near as prevalent as
                      > the drive for comfort, which
                      > seems to be our animal nature
                      > at work, while the meaning
                      > quest is existential, requires
                      > considerable intellect, and is
                      > really a subset of comfort
                      > seeking.
                      >
                      > My whole post was about that it's not simply a plight for comfort. I see what you
                      > mean, meaning can bring comfort, but it can also be pretty uncomfy as well.

                      But that discomfort is just growing pains, and the ultimate result of
                      finding meaning in your life is growth, and once you fill in your new
                      shoes, you are comfortable.

                      Growth is painful, but the result is greater comfort.

                      > There are quite a few folks that believe that in death, thats it, not a very comforting
                      > or meaningful scenario. I'm not too concerned, but there was a time for me that it
                      > was all about trying to figure that out, attempting to gain more comfort by knowing
                      > something about my demise. Once the basic needs are met which are the survival
                      > needs, then one can be comfortable and seek for pleasure or excitement. Really
                      > what I was getting at is that I live mostly day to day, just to see whats next and
                      > being uncomfy can be part of that.

                      That is you, Jason, the apparent individual. You as an individual are
                      comprised of a belief that you are making decisions. You can make
                      a decision that will result in discomfort. However, I believe that the
                      underlying motivation, the unconscious impulse which decided for
                      you a half second before you even knew you were making a decision,
                      is the movement toward comfort.

                      > Even extreme thrill-
                      > seeking, which is afaik
                      > exclusive to (a very small
                      > faction of) humanity seems to
                      > be a mere overlay, an
                      > abberation appearing in rare
                      > cases where people aren't
                      > comfortable with themselves
                      > (largely for cultural and/or
                      > psycho-sexual reasons) unless
                      > there is an unusual degree of
                      > risk-based stimulation in play.
                      >
                      > Yes, I agree and wasn't disagreeing with the comfort scenerio. I've done quite a
                      > large amount of thrill seeking myself, sky diving, rock climbing, cliff diving, ramp
                      > skateboarding, deep sea dives, parasailing etc. And for me those aren't about any
                      > type of comfort, not in the process of the experience or the outcome. For me it's
                      > about sensation, facing injury, enjoying the thrill, really just the experience of being
                      > alive to the extreme. Would I partake in these things if I wasn't comfortable as far as
                      > survival needs being met?; prolly not, but if it ment my survival to do these things,
                      > then I'd certainly do them. Fact is I could just be a couch potato and be quite comfy,
                      > aside from a lil gas :-)

                      Getting rad has always been comfort seeking. Joy=comfort.

                      > When it comes to prevalence,
                      > comfort wins hands-down over
                      > existential angst and risky
                      > stimulation addictions,
                      > which imo aren't nearly as
                      > universal in our species.
                      >
                      > Again I do not disagree, as a matter of fact, once the basic survial needs are met it
                      > can be quite comfortable. All I'm saying is that comfort seeking isn't the only drive
                      > at play, not for the human genome or the entire rest of the animal kingdom.

                      And I'm saying that I can boil all animal behavior down to comfort
                      seeking, as I am using the term comfort.

                      I'd love for somebody to show me wrong here, really. At the moment,
                      I'm convinced that everything life does is for comfort.

                      I suppose some might see this as a degradation of the human soul,
                      spirit, etc. It's not. Jesus died for the sins of others. That had to hurt.

                      However, there was a greater good in it, the well-being of others.
                      That *was* Jesus' comfort. That's why he did it.

                      > I didn't mean to imply that living is all about seeking meaning either, although my
                      > post did infere that to some extent. I was using meaning as one other process of
                      > experience that is occuring within a human individual and doesn't neccesarily go
                      > hand in hand with comfort, also neither experience seeking, and basic survival/
                      > perpetuation of a species. I tend to shy away from any sort of living to be about one
                      > specific answer and to me, being comfortable at the moment, it's not about being
                      > more comfortable for me.
                      >
                      > Peace and Love

                      It's not about you. It's about life. You are an expression of life.
                      You have ideals and motivations which extend beyond mere comfort
                      seeking. But I'm throwing down the gauntlet. Underneath all the
                      complex reasonings and feelings of the human mind, it's all just
                      about having the things we need, be it physical, mental, or
                      emotional. That's what I'm calling comfort. That's what I believe
                      life is all about.

                      --jody.

                      > Jason Fishman wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Nina this is a really great post, very sensical....
                      >
                      > Jody, i've watched this discussion and have had things to add to some of your
                      posts, but haven't had a great deal of time. Now that the wrapping and stuffing is
                      done, I'll take a moment.
                      >
                      > In general, people don't look for comfort. If at some point one is seeking comfort,
                      then one is seeking comfort in a relationship sense or if there is a great deal of pain,
                      then comfort is key. There are quite a few other circumstances, such as depression or
                      being in an unknown area, not comfortable in a certain setting.
                      >
                      > If anything people look for meaning, why things happen the way they do, type
                      answers. They seek excitement at times, of which many times excitment is anything
                      but comfortable. They seek, pleasure and avoid pain, but it's not for a comfort factor,
                      generally speaking.
                      >
                      > What's typically at play in the human genome is situational, experiencial, which
                      changes sometimes on a moment to moment basis. To say everything seeks comfort,
                      is generalizing even further. If looked at closely, single pointed process isn't at play
                      anywhere.
                      >
                      > Even in a scientific sense, narrowing down the universe has only gone as far as a
                      three level perception over space/time. Although these can be linked directly and
                      affect each other directly, there is good reason to believe, at this point, that they are
                      not co-dependent.
                      >
                      > Certain spiritual endeavors turn up all sorts of ideas and it's fairly normal for us to
                      try and sum things up into a single function/process. Yet as science, spirituality,
                      philosophy and religions have been turning over and over for milenia, breaking life
                      and the universe down to one type of function/process is just not working out. Even
                      duality is a dud for the most part.
                      >
                      > Those seeking comfort are seeking that if there is a lack of, others comfortable,
                      seek other feelings/associations, such as pleasure, knowledge or excitement/
                      experiences new to them.
                      >
                      > That's my take. Hope everyone is having a wonderful and comfortable holiday
                      season!!
                      >
                      > Peace and Love
                      >
                      > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Here is another way of seeing something that has
                      > > been debated recently:
                      > >
                      > > "The task of becoming whole is one that cannot be ignored...
                      > > Thus certain persons find themselves obliged to undertake
                      > > the task of individuation as a conscious willed enterprise,
                      > > even though the quest promises no definite ending. Once it
                      > > is undertaken, however, aid comes from an unexpected source,
                      > > namely the unconscious itself. For symbols of wholeness begin
                      > > to appear in dreams and phantasies and in other products of
                      > > the unconscious, pointing the way that must be taken, even if
                      > > this way leads towards an unknown goal. Thus the quest for
                      > > wholeness shows itself to be in line with an archetypal trend
                      > > inherent in the psychic structure of the human being. This
                      > > trend is akin to an instinct and, like the instincts, is
                      > > capable of showing the way to be taken by the developing
                      > > organism." - M. Esther Harding in "Psychic Energy: Its Source
                      > > and Transformation, pp. 339f.
                      > >
                      > > The above quote is referenced in Judith Harris' book "Jung
                      > > and Yoga: the Psyche-Body Connection" and is used in the
                      > > context of suffering providing an impetus towards change,
                      > > that is to say, towards moving into wholeness.
                      > >
                      > > Is that comfort? I don't know - perhaps if someone carries
                      > > a hope that wholeness will be comfortable.
                      >
                      > The context of suffering provides the best reason to seek
                      > comfort.
                      >
                      > I'd say practically everyone who is seeking to be whole
                      > imagines--consciously or unconsciously--that there is
                      > comfort there.
                      >
                      > > By the time one
                      > > uncovers wholeness, is one's sense of 'comfort' anything
                      > > close to what one's sense of 'comfort' was in the beginning?
                      >
                      > It's not about "one's" sense of anything. The body moves
                      > toward comfort. Life moves toward comfort. Individual
                      > cells move toward comfort.
                      >
                      > > This is an interesting thing to consider, that while we
                      > > may all be motivated towards comfort (wholeness, meaning,
                      > > or whatever), that at some point, even the sense of 'comfort'
                      > > is transformed as the boundaries of its possibilities
                      > > expand. What then? What becomes of motivation, when we discover,
                      > > that comfort is all around us, that we are it?
                      >
                      > This whole comfort seeking thing works outside of our sense
                      > of what we are doing. Like a decision that comes a full half
                      > second before the awareness of making it, life's search for
                      > comfort is working underneath all our imagined motivations.
                      >
                      > > Ah, and happy christmas; may we all give and receive comfort,
                      > > and find comfort within ourselves.
                      > >
                      > > comfy,
                      > > Nina
                      >
                      > May all come to know there ain't no where to go.
                      >
                      > --jody.
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jason Fishman
                      jodyrrr wrote: It wasn t a very comfortable kind of comfort, but there s a kind of joy in the melancholy experience. It isn t comfort if it
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                        jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

                        It wasn't a
                        very comfortable kind of comfort, but there's a kind of joy
                        in the melancholy experience.

                        It isn't comfort if it isn't very comfortable... It is the experience of being alive, which includes all sorts of processes. Mixing terms isn't going to make life all about comfort or any other single process that can be termed.

                        Better to stick to hoopla, that would be as general as one tends to get.

                        Peace and Love


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                      • Jason Fishman
                        jodyrrr wrote: It s not about you. It s about life. You are an _expression of life. You have ideals and motivations which extend beyond
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                          jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:

                          It's not about you.  It's about life.  You are an _expression of life. You have ideals and motivations which extend beyond mere comfort seeking.  But I'm throwing down the gauntlet.  Underneath all the
                          complex reasonings and feelings of the human mind, it's all just about having the things we need, be it physical, mental, or emotional.  That's what I'm calling comfort.  That's what I believe life is all about.

                           

                          It is about me, it is also about you and everyone/thing else. You jumped on the hoopla bandwagon for awhile, of which stating that is much more accurate. The word hoopla as Sandeep used it, within his definition of the word, included all general actions/process summed up into one word. Like saying that's life, or the human experience.

                          There is an innate issue with lumping life into one defined process, the term your using is the experience of being comfortable by consumming things to keep one alive, isn't just the comfort seeking process. Those comforts that your speaking of do not apply to many animals, plants or insects either.

                          That would be akin to saying life is about choice, when a tree doesn't make informed choices then carry out actions about it's locale, how much water it consumes, etc. Therefore, isn't seeking comfort or any other type of survival. A seed only grows where it's condusive to do so. Better to say life is about ending in decay, if your feeling morbid.

                          If one is breaking it down to instinct that would be fine for most of the animals roming the earth, but not so much for humans who are far off from an instinctual nature, replaced by intellect.

                          If one is to break it all down, then it's moments when something is added to, moments when something is removed from and moments when neither apply. If your calling that process comfort, then comfort for you it is, but it's not in the terminology that humans use when speaking english.

                          Peace and Love


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                        • Nina
                          The drive towards comfort doesn t depend on being constantly comfortable. Drives are based on dreams for the future, for something other than what is now .
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                            The drive towards comfort doesn't
                            depend on being constantly comfortable.
                            Drives are based on dreams for the future,
                            for something other than what is 'now'.
                            So, 'now' could be quite uncomfortable,
                            and still, the drive towards comfort
                            could be fully operative.

                            Also, as regards the conversation below,
                            melancholy and depression may be seen to
                            be 'feeling tones' that are established
                            early in life, perhaps even with a congenital
                            foundation. As such, these feeling tones are
                            familiar, and as familiar tones, they provide
                            the security of 'the known'. This is why it
                            is sometimes very difficult for someone to
                            move beyond the feeling tones one grows up with;
                            even if the destructive aspects of those feeling
                            tones are recognized, one might continue expressing
                            those tones, because that is all one knows -
                            because that is what one is comfortable with.
                            A person who did not grow up with the feeling
                            tone of happiness, looks upon the feeling tone
                            of happiness with suspicion. Happiness is
                            uncharted territory, and carries with it the
                            risks of the unknown; as such, happiness is
                            uncomfortable.

                            At any rate, the main point is not the object of
                            the drive, but rather, the subject as the drive.
                            It is not about comfort, but the will to comfort.

                            Ah, and once again, it is 'comfort' in a metaphorical
                            sense. Comfort may be seen to correlate with wholeness,
                            wellness, happiness, peace, hoopla. Comfort may also
                            describe the feeling tone of the hero returned from
                            a difficult journey - one has navigated the unknown
                            and defeated whatever demon to return transformed
                            to the world where the journey began. There is
                            comfort in the 'being transformed'.

                            To argue metaphors is to miss the point of metaphors.
                            They are tools for understanding, and even the debate
                            of them may be seen as integral to their function.
                            Is the creation and understanding of metaphor a science
                            or an art?

                            One may argue that dragons represent
                            the ego guarding treasures it cannot possibly use and
                            not some vital force that brings life... when it is
                            only that dragons are symbols, which carry both of
                            those meanings (European vs. Chinese dragons).

                            'The Drive to Comfort' is a metaphor that may certainly
                            be seen to trickle down into the biological and spiritual
                            worlds. The value of this story is the way it provides
                            insight into the workings and inevitabilities of life.
                            The trick of every story, is its interpretation by the
                            individual... and the way that story is told differently
                            by different people. Jody may call it the drive towards
                            comfort, someone else may call it by a different name -
                            but the root story remains, untouched, even by the telling.
                            The telling is only an attempt to get closer to that which
                            cannot be touched.

                            Now, how comfortable is that? And, how old the tale
                            of finding comfort through the telling and hearing
                            of such tales...

                            Nina

                            > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                            > It wasn't a very comfortable kind of comfort,
                            > but there's a kind of joy
                            > in the melancholy experience.

                            > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                            > It isn't comfort if it isn't very comfortable... It is the
                            experience of being alive, which includes all sorts of processes.
                            Mixing terms isn't going to make life all about comfort or any other
                            single process that can be termed.
                            >
                            > Better to stick to hoopla, that would be
                            > as general as one tends to get.
                          • Nina
                            ... of the animals roming the earth, but not so much for humans who are far off from an instinctual nature, replaced by intellect. ... added to, moments when
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                              > If one is breaking it down to instinct that would be fine for most
                              of the animals roming the earth, but not so much for humans who are
                              far off from an instinctual nature, replaced by intellect.
                              >
                              > If one is to break it all down, then it's moments when something is
                              added to, moments when something is removed from and moments when
                              neither apply. If your calling that process comfort, then comfort for
                              you it is, but it's not in the terminology that humans use when
                              speaking english.

                              The intellect may believe it is in control,
                              but is deluded. Humans have not transcended
                              instinctual nature; though one might deny
                              its roles and even its very existance within
                              humanity.

                              Terminology is symbolic of deeper meaning.
                              When it comes to understanding, it is best to not
                              get stuck on the rungs of terminology, picking
                              at the nails that hold the rungs to the sideboards,
                              as one might miss the opportunity to climb the
                              ladder...

                              Nina
                            • jodyrrr
                              ... Absolutely. ... Or, this drive is based on current conditions against possible conditions. I m in the snow and therefore cold. If I go in the house I ll
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                > The drive towards comfort doesn't
                                > depend on being constantly comfortable.

                                Absolutely.

                                > Drives are based on dreams for the future,
                                > for something other than what is 'now'.

                                Or, this drive is based on current conditions against
                                possible conditions. I'm in the snow and therefore
                                cold. If I go in the house I'll be warm.

                                > So, 'now' could be quite uncomfortable,
                                > and still, the drive towards comfort
                                > could be fully operative.

                                Always.

                                > Also, as regards the conversation below,
                                > melancholy and depression may be seen to
                                > be 'feeling tones' that are established
                                > early in life, perhaps even with a congenital
                                > foundation. As such, these feeling tones are
                                > familiar, and as familiar tones, they provide
                                > the security of 'the known'. This is why it
                                > is sometimes very difficult for someone to
                                > move beyond the feeling tones one grows up with;
                                > even if the destructive aspects of those feeling
                                > tones are recognized, one might continue expressing
                                > those tones, because that is all one knows -

                                I'd chalk it up to biochemical storms in the brain.
                                These patterns are certainly learned, and likely
                                have a hardwired predisposition as well.

                                > because that is what one is comfortable with.
                                > A person who did not grow up with the feeling
                                > tone of happiness, looks upon the feeling tone
                                > of happiness with suspicion. Happiness is
                                > uncharted territory, and carries with it the
                                > risks of the unknown; as such, happiness is
                                > uncomfortable.

                                That is certainly true of some folk.

                                > At any rate, the main point is not the object of
                                > the drive, but rather, the subject as the drive.
                                > It is not about comfort, but the will to comfort.

                                Life can be described as movement toward comfort.

                                > Ah, and once again, it is 'comfort' in a metaphorical
                                > sense. Comfort may be seen to correlate with wholeness,
                                > wellness, happiness, peace, hoopla.

                                All those things are hoopla. But you are right. As individual
                                beings, we seem to desire to create our hooplas too, and in
                                that, seek comfort.

                                > Comfort may also
                                > describe the feeling tone of the hero returned from
                                > a difficult journey - one has navigated the unknown
                                > and defeated whatever demon to return transformed
                                > to the world where the journey began. There is
                                > comfort in the 'being transformed'.

                                For sure.

                                > To argue metaphors is to miss the point of metaphors.
                                > They are tools for understanding, and even the debate
                                > of them may be seen as integral to their function.
                                > Is the creation and understanding of metaphor a science
                                > or an art?
                                >
                                > One may argue that dragons represent
                                > the ego guarding treasures it cannot possibly use and
                                > not some vital force that brings life... when it is
                                > only that dragons are symbols, which carry both of
                                > those meanings (European vs. Chinese dragons).
                                >
                                > 'The Drive to Comfort' is a metaphor that may certainly
                                > be seen to trickle down into the biological and spiritual
                                > worlds. The value of this story is the way it provides
                                > insight into the workings and inevitabilities of life.

                                That's what I'm hoping for. I'm still trying out the paradigm
                                on myself. So far, I haven't been able to come up with
                                any animal behavior that doesn't express the drive to
                                comfort as you call it.

                                > The trick of every story, is its interpretation by the
                                > individual... and the way that story is told differently
                                > by different people. Jody may call it the drive towards
                                > comfort, someone else may call it by a different name -
                                > but the root story remains, untouched, even by the telling.
                                > The telling is only an attempt to get closer to that which
                                > cannot be touched.
                                >
                                > Now, how comfortable is that? And, how old the tale
                                > of finding comfort through the telling and hearing
                                > of such tales...
                                >
                                > Nina

                                I guess I'm seeking a kind of conceptual comfort, some kind
                                of coherent theory of identity that I can base my future work
                                on. Significance is one thread for certain. I'm still trying to
                                work out if comfort will be the second.

                                Any and all ideas about this are appreciated. Also appreciated
                                are yours and Bruceji's being able to understand where I'm
                                coming from. It leads me to believe that I may be on the right
                                track here.

                                --jody.
                                >
                                > > jodyrrr <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                > > It wasn't a very comfortable kind of comfort,
                                > > but there's a kind of joy
                                > > in the melancholy experience.
                                >
                                > > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                > > It isn't comfort if it isn't very comfortable... It is the
                                > experience of being alive, which includes all sorts of processes.
                                > Mixing terms isn't going to make life all about comfort or any other
                                > single process that can be termed.
                                > >
                                > > Better to stick to hoopla, that would be
                                > > as general as one tends to get.
                              • medit8ionsociety
                                jodyrrr wrote: snip ... snip Yo Jodyji, Doesn t the survival of the species drive concept come before and make irrelevant the doing things
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                  "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

                                  snip

                                  > I guess I'm seeking a kind of conceptual comfort, some kind
                                  > of coherent theory of identity that I can base my future work
                                  > on. Significance is one thread for certain. I'm still trying to
                                  > work out if comfort will be the second.
                                  >
                                  > Any and all ideas about this are appreciated. Also appreciated
                                  > are yours and Bruceji's being able to understand where I'm
                                  > coming from. It leads me to believe that I may be on the right
                                  > track here.
                                  >
                                  > --jody.

                                  snip

                                  Yo Jodyji,

                                  Doesn't the "survival of the species" drive concept come before and
                                  make irrelevant the "doing things to gain comfort" drive? Isn't this
                                  why a Mommy will jump in front of an oncoming vehicle to push her
                                  child to safety and take the (ultimate!) uncomfortable hit herself.
                                  And that's why babies survive - because we all have this hardwired
                                  into us, and their cuteness becomes their survival mechinism via our
                                  subconscious mutual urge to have our human species survive. Are you
                                  comfortable with this? :)
                                  Surviving comfortably, uncomfortably and somewhat ably, Bob
                                • freyjartist@aol.com
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                    <<I guess I'm seeking a kind of conceptual comfort, some kind
                                    of coherent theory of identity that I can base my future work
                                    on. Significance is one thread for certain. I'm still trying to
                                    work out if comfort will be the second.

                                    Any and all ideas about this are appreciated. Also appreciated
                                    are yours and Bruceji's being able to understand where I'm
                                    coming from. It leads me to believe that I may be on the right
                                    track here.

                                    --jody.>>

                                    Hi jody...

                                    I think we had a couple exchanges on
                                    how seeking enlightenment is but another
                                    way to survive better.

                                    I would say that all these animal behaviors,
                                    plus everything else we do (like seeking enlightenment)
                                    that you say show you that life is all
                                    about seeking comfort, is ultimately about
                                    'survival'.  Seeking comfort is seeking to survive
                                    as best we can.  If it's good to have a little
                                    of a good thing, it must be better to have a lot.

                                    Staying a-live.   Being in a
                                    consciously witnessing Life, in a body.

                                    Life is a very, very desirable thing.  
                                    We are wired in the DNA that it is a very precious thing.
                                    We are addicted to it.  God is addicted to it.
                                    Perhaps it is simply that there is just not much of anything
                                    going on outside of life,  not much action.....and it's boring.  LOL

                                    We seem to get so addicted to life that somehow
                                    being alive is somehow preferable to not being alive,
                                    and this is where the stakes come in.   
                                    The ultimate stake being it is better to be alive,
                                    have a life, than to be dead.   The known is much
                                    more comforting than the unknown....except,
                                    when you find out that there really is no 'unknown'.

                                    Still, even so, there is (for most), sages included, the drive to stay alive, to get out
                                    of the way of the oncoming truck to avoid being
                                    hit.

                                    Metaphorically speaking,
                                    when I was not in human form, my supernatural family
                                    tried to convince me to opt against life,  said that
                                    it's not all its cracked up to be,  it's a lot harder than
                                    it looks,  you have everything you need right here,
                                    why do you need to go there, anyway?  And I said,
                                    Look,  back off, I just need to see for myself, OK? And they reluctantly said,
                                    OK, but whatever you do,  find your True Friend(s) down there as soon as you can.

                                    I found them.

                                    The rest is all inconsequential.

                                    Ah well, there is my too sense right now.....
                                    don't know how much sense it makes though.

                                    Freyja


                                  • Bruce Morgen
                                    medit8ionsociety wrote: jodyrrr wrote: snip I guess I m seeking a kind of conceptual comfort, some kind of coherent theory of identity that I
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                      medit8ionsociety wrote:
                                      "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                      
                                      snip
                                      
                                        
                                      I guess I'm seeking a kind of conceptual comfort, some kind
                                      of coherent theory of identity that I can base my future work
                                      on.  Significance is one thread for certain.  I'm still trying to
                                      work out if comfort will be the second.
                                      
                                      Any and all ideas about this are appreciated.  Also appreciated
                                      are yours and Bruceji's being able to understand where I'm
                                      coming from.  It leads me to believe that I may be on the right
                                      track here.
                                      
                                      --jody.
                                          
                                      snip
                                      
                                      Yo Jodyji,
                                      
                                      Doesn't the "survival of the species" drive concept come before and
                                      make irrelevant the "doing things to gain comfort" drive? Isn't this
                                      why a Mommy will jump in front of an oncoming vehicle to push her
                                      child to safety and take the (ultimate!) uncomfortable hit herself.
                                      And that's why babies survive - because we all have this hardwired
                                      into us, and their cuteness becomes their survival mechinism via our
                                      subconscious mutual urge to have our human species survive. Are you
                                      comfortable with this? :)
                                      Surviving comfortably, uncomfortably and somewhat ably, Bob
                                      
                                      
                                        
                                      Hmm -- try this one on: survival
                                      instinct is evidence that beings
                                      are not comfortable with the
                                      prospect of dying.  Humans
                                      overcome this quite handily --
                                      when they see themselves as
                                      having no prospect of comfort,
                                      they become quite careless
                                      regarding survival or even
                                      outright suicidal.  Iow, for
                                      humans (at least, hard to know
                                      about other species), the drive
                                      for comfort can and often does
                                      trump survival instinct.  It
                                      even transcends mental illness,
                                      because the definition of
                                      comfort is so malleable as to be
                                      at least somewhat different for
                                      every nominal individual. 
                                      Different drummers, but
                                      everyone's got (at least) one!
                                    • freyjartist@aol.com
                                      Bruce wrote:
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                        <snip>

                                        Bruce wrote:

                                        <<Hmm -- try this one on: survival
                                        instinct is evidence that beings
                                        are not comfortable with the
                                        prospect of dying.  Humans
                                        overcome this quite handily --
                                        when they see themselves as
                                        having no prospect of comfort,
                                        they become quite careless
                                        regarding survival or even
                                        outright suicidal.  Iow, for
                                        humans (at least, hard to know
                                        about other species), the drive
                                        for comfort can and often does
                                        trump survival instinct.>>


                                        I was thinking about that.
                                        Life becomes SO un-comfortable
                                        for some that the search for comfort
                                        even overrides the will to continue to live
                                        in the current existence.

                                        I still see 'comfort' and 'surviving better'
                                        as basically the same thing....

                                        because, even in the case of suicide,
                                        the driving thought would probably be,
                                        "I'll be better off without this pain."

                                        Freyja

                                        <<It
                                        even transcends mental illness,
                                        because the definition of
                                        comfort is so malleable as to be
                                        at least somewhat different for
                                        every nominal individual. 
                                        Different drummers, but
                                        everyone's got (at least) one!>>


                                      • Bruce Morgen
                                        freyjartist@aol.com wrote: Bruce wrote:
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 26, 2003
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                                          freyjartist@... wrote:
                                          <snip>

                                          Bruce wrote:

                                          <<Hmm -- try this one on: survival
                                          instinct is evidence that beings
                                          are not comfortable with the
                                          prospect of dying.  Humans
                                          overcome this quite handily --
                                          when they see themselves as
                                          having no prospect of comfort,
                                          they become quite careless
                                          regarding survival or even
                                          outright suicidal.  Iow, for
                                          humans (at least, hard to know
                                          about other species), the drive
                                          for comfort can and often does
                                          trump survival instinct.>>


                                          I was thinking about that.
                                          Life becomes SO un-comfortable
                                          for some that the search for comfort
                                          even overrides the will to continue to live
                                          in the current existence.

                                          I still see 'comfort' and 'surviving better'
                                          as basically the same thing....

                                          because, even in the case of suicide,
                                          the driving thought would probably be,
                                          "I'll be better off without this pain."

                                          Once "better" is involved it's
                                          no longer "survival" instinct --
                                          it's the drive for comfort!  :-)
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