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No Thoughts Are Brilliant

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts, or whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts occurs. When in the
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 16, 2003
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      Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts, or
      whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts
      occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
      away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
      running away from these things leads to an infinity of discomforting
      mind chatter. The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
      found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
      brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite peace
      transcendent of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance and live
      happily ever after.
    • endofthedream@yahoo.com
      ... wrote: Dear Bob ~ ... *****If you mean in thoughts as in sucked into believing them, then yes, what you state is true. However, if you
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:

        Dear Bob ~


        > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts,
        > or whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts
        > occurs.

        *****In that moment, you are not. ;-)


        > When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
        > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
        > running away from these things leads to an infinity of discomforting
        > mind chatter.


        *****If you mean "in" thoughts as in "sucked into believing them,"
        then yes, what you state is true. However, if you are equating "when
        in the thoughts" with "being in the presence of thoughts," this is
        not necessarily so. In my experience, (and I speak ONLY for Andy, no
        one else), there is *no* problem with thoughts or their objects. Nor
        is there chasing or running away from them. They are seen, arising,
        receding ... just there, like the weather. Sure, some mornings, I
        get up, look at the stormy sky, a bitter cold wintery day, and find a
        disinclination to going outside in such inclement weather. But that
        is just another thought, another story. Appropriate clothing is
        selected and the journey outside is taken. (Or I crawl back under
        the covers and call in sick! Hahaha!!!) Sure, there is a sting! of
        discomfort when the wife offers a sharp word to me. However, in the
        watching, any stories, tales, or spinning out from what happened
        (some words were articulated, that is all) just does not happen. The
        horizontal involvement in 'the play' gets cut off, even in the midst
        of the thoughts ('She's such a bitch' or whatever).


        > The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
        > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
        > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite peace
        > transcendent of thought.



        *****Yes, it is peace, of a sort. But not one that is very useful,
        in my opinion. Most of our 'conscious' life is navigated in the
        presence of thoughts. Until they are experienced to be empty, until
        one can 'ride' them with no upset, the work is not done. Thoughts
        are not ~ and have never been ~ the "problem." It is the investment
        in them that causes upset, disrupts the equanimity. Even the
        thought "I am to die tomorrow," need not cause upset. It is, after
        all, just a thought. It is not the dying (which is either to come or
        not to come, at a later moment).

        It is all well and good to experience peace, serentiy, even
        brilliance!, while engaged in formal sitting. It certainly has value
        (a lot! for some folks). But the persistent value of meditation is
        that it may allow this Seeing to be carried off of the cushion, into
        the workplace, the family, the world. And that entails being
        serenely WITH the thoughts that bombard us throughout our day, not
        escaping from them in the silence between them.

        ~andy
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... thoughts, ... thoughts ... discomforting ... Of course. However, if you are equating when ... no ... Nor ... arising, ... a ... that ... the ... The ...
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, endofthedream@y...
          wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Bob ~
          >
          >
          > > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions,
          thoughts,
          > > or whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the
          thoughts
          > > occurs.
          >
          > *****In that moment, you are not. ;-)
          >
          >
          > > When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
          > > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
          > > running away from these things leads to an infinity of
          discomforting
          > > mind chatter.
          >
          >
          > *****If you mean "in" thoughts as in "sucked into believing them,"
          > then yes, what you state is true.

          Of course.

          However, if you are equating "when
          > in the thoughts" with "being in the presence of thoughts," this is
          > not necessarily so. In my experience, (and I speak ONLY for Andy,
          no
          > one else), there is *no* problem with thoughts or their objects.
          Nor
          > is there chasing or running away from them. They are seen,
          arising,
          > receding ... just there, like the weather. Sure, some mornings, I
          > get up, look at the stormy sky, a bitter cold wintery day, and find
          a
          > disinclination to going outside in such inclement weather. But
          that
          > is just another thought, another story. Appropriate clothing is
          > selected and the journey outside is taken. (Or I crawl back under
          > the covers and call in sick! Hahaha!!!) Sure, there is a sting! of
          > discomfort when the wife offers a sharp word to me. However, in
          the
          > watching, any stories, tales, or spinning out from what happened
          > (some words were articulated, that is all) just does not happen.
          The
          > horizontal involvement in 'the play' gets cut off, even in the
          midst
          > of the thoughts ('She's such a bitch' or whatever).

          Well, actually this seems to be is a good example of not just "being
          in the presence of thoughts," but being caught up in them.
          >
          >
          > > The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
          > > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
          > > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite
          peace
          > > transcendent of thought.
          >
          >
          >
          > *****Yes, it is peace, of a sort. But not one that is very useful,
          > in my opinion.

          You think so? I don't:-)

          > Most of our 'conscious' life is navigated in the
          > presence of thoughts. Until they are experienced to be empty,
          until
          > one can 'ride' them with no upset, the work is not done. Thoughts
          > are not ~ and have never been ~ the "problem." It is the
          investment
          > in them that causes upset, disrupts the equanimity. Even the
          > thought "I am to die tomorrow," need not cause upset. It is, after
          > all, just a thought. It is not the dying (which is either to come
          or
          > not to come, at a later moment).
          >
          > It is all well and good to experience peace, serentiy, even
          > brilliance!, while engaged in formal sitting. It certainly has
          value
          > (a lot! for some folks). But the persistent value of meditation is
          > that it may allow this Seeing to be carried off of the cushion,
          into
          > the workplace, the family, the world. And that entails being
          > serenely WITH the thoughts that bombard us throughout our day, not
          > escaping from them in the silence between them.
          >
          > ~andy

          Dear Andyji,
          You know how when you're in a movie theater and the movie is playing,
          and you are aware of what's going on, but you know it's a movie;
          well, that's about what thoughts about "stuff" is. But it's rare to
          not get caught up in the plot if the characters play their parts
          convincingly. As a matter of fact, here in the movie houses in
          Philly, the audience often talks back to the characters on the
          screen, and have even been known to shoot their guns at them. And
          like the audiences here, most people (99.99999%) find there isn't
          any "serenity WITH the thoughts" in their 'real life'. The space
          between the thoughts is the only thing that is "persistent", and
          can "be carried off of the cushion, into the workplace, the family,
          the world." The space between the thoughts isthe ocean from which the
          waves peak and subside, and not just an "escape".
          Anyway, these are just thoughts...(and what is between them):-)
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob
        • gryan@gac.edu
          i ve felt this way before, sometimes when meditating, other times when smoking weed (which i think i quit, i never did it a whole lot, very infrequently and
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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            i've felt this way before, sometimes when meditating, other times
            when smoking weed (which i think i quit, i never did it a whole lot,
            very infrequently and only a handful of times). But i did almost go
            really deep where my head was like a vessel and thoughts from
            infinity above and infinity below flew threw. I didn't have the
            courage i felt to keep that channel open.

            I think, how many hear have read robert anton wilson's prometheus
            rising 8 circuits model? Also how many here have studied bandler? i
            think what you're talking about is some kind of access to a higher
            circuit of intelligence or brain.

            jerryryryryryryrna

            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts,
            or
            > whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts
            > occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
            > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
            > running away from these things leads to an infinity of discomforting
            > mind chatter. The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
            > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
            > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite peace
            > transcendent of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance and live
            > happily ever after.
          • endofthedream@yahoo.com
            ... endofthedream@y... ... medit8ionsociety ... *****Let s look further. I don t disagree that the moment that the thought she s such a bitch happens, in
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              endofthedream@y...
              > wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              medit8ionsociety
              > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:

              > > However, if you are equating "when in the thoughts" with "being
              > > in the presence of thoughts," this is not necessarily so. In my
              > > experience, (and I speak ONLY for Andy, no one else), there is
              > > *no* problem with thoughts or their objects. Nor is there
              > > chasing or running away from them. They are seen, arising,
              > > receding ... just there, like the weather. Sure, some mornings,
              > > I get up, look at the stormy sky, a bitter cold wintery day, and
              > > find a disinclination to going outside in such inclement
              > > weather. But that is just another thought, another story.
              > > Appropriate clothing is selected and the journey outside is
              > > taken. (Or I crawl back under the covers and call in sick!
              > > Hahaha!!!) Sure, there is a sting! of discomfort when the wife
              > > offers a sharp word to me. However, in the watching, any
              > > stories, tales, or spinning out from what happened (some words
              > > were articulated, that is all) just does not happen. The
              > > horizontal involvement in 'the play' gets cut off, even in the
              > > midst of the thoughts ('She's such a bitch' or whatever).


              > Well, actually this seems to be is a good example of not
              > just "being in the presence of thoughts," but being caught up in
              > them.


              *****Let's look further. I don't disagree that the moment that the
              thought "she's such a bitch" happens, in that one second, there is
              caughtupness. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
              However, the next moment, it is seen that this is just a mechanical
              process of thought, and, in that seeing, any belief in the
              thought "she's such a bitch," disappears. With that disaappearance
              goes the story-telling, the justifying, the spinning off into a web
              of fabrication. THAT is what I was referring to as 'being caught up
              in the thoughts.' The immediate appearance of ANY thought, good, bad
              or indifferent, seems to belong to the mechanical nature of the mind
              while it is not in a meditative state.


              > > > The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
              > > > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
              > > > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite
              > > > peace transcendent of thought.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > *****Yes, it is peace, of a sort. But not one that is very
              > > useful, in my opinion.


              > You think so? I don't:-)


              > > Most of our 'conscious' life is navigated in the
              > > presence of thoughts. Until they are experienced to be empty,
              > > until one can 'ride' them with no upset, the work is not done.
              > > Thoughts are not ~ and have never been ~ the "problem." It is
              > > the investment in them that causes upset, disrupts the
              > > equanimity. Even the thought "I am to die tomorrow," need not
              > > cause upset. It is, after all, just a thought. It is not the
              > > dying (which is either to come or not to come, at a later moment).
              > >
              > > It is all well and good to experience peace, serentiy, even
              > > brilliance!, while engaged in formal sitting. It certainly has
              > > value (a lot! for some folks). But the persistent value of
              > > meditation is that it may allow this Seeing to be carried off of
              > > the cushion, into the workplace, the family, the world. And that
              > > entails being serenely WITH the thoughts that bombard us
              > > throughout our day, not escaping from them in the silence between
              > > them.


              > Dear Andyji,
              > You know how when you're in a movie theater and the movie is
              > playing, and you are aware of what's going on, but you know it's a
              > movie; well, that's about what thoughts about "stuff" is. But it's
              > rare to not get caught up in the plot if the characters play their
              > parts convincingly.


              *****All one must take attend to is one's OWN attention to the rising
              and receding of the thoughts. The other characters, regardless of
              how convincingly they play their parts, do not impinge on what is
              seen by one who is paying attention (to thoughts and everything else,
              for that matter). Peace begins, and ends, at home, in oneself,
              regardless of how others behave.

              > As a matter of fact, here in the movie houses in
              > Philly, the audience often talks back to the characters on the
              > screen, and have even been known to shoot their guns at them. And
              > like the audiences here, most people (99.99999%) find there isn't
              > any "serenity WITH the thoughts" in their 'real life'.

              *****Well, that may be so. I have not found it to be the case. A
              moment of looking up at a bright, blue sky, a thought
              following, "lovely weather," then thought moves on to something
              else. An angry exchange between me and the wife, a thought
              appearing, "she's such a bitch," then thought moves on to something
              else. No difference!


              > The space between the thoughts is the only thing that
              > is "persistent", and can "be carried off of the cushion, into the
              > workplace, the family, the world." The space between the thoughts
              > is the ocean from which the waves peak and subside, and not just
              > an "escape".


              *****I don't disagree. That space IS persistent. It never comes and
              never goes. It has always been there, with us, in us...it IS us.
              However, it is my experience that such silence does not persist "off
              the cushion." Sitting meditation produces a calmness and clarity but
              there is no interaction happening, except in thought. When one gets
              good at it, thought can run down and stop, and one just...
              sits...hearing the honk of a horn, feeling the breath move in and
              out, noticing the eyelid's flutter, a bird cawing ... This is not a
              state that happens to me in the everyday world where there is verbal
              interaction and complex actions which require the processing of
              thought. At such moments, thought is not quiet; it may be calm and
              serene, but it is operative and there is an awareness of the 'noise'
              of thought that is absent in sitting meditation. The noise and
              chatter of everyday thought is not, however, a problem, and there is,
              for me, no lack of serenity there also (although it is of a
              different ... caliber ... than what happens in 'formal' meditation).
              The thoughts which arise in the everyday world are seen to be, for
              the most part, no different than the movie scenario you depicted.
              They are the story of my life and there is as much investment in them
              as in a film. A moment of upset, a moment of joy. No difference in
              the main.

              ~andy
            • jodyrrr@yahoo.com
              ... [snip] ... That caughtupness is the presence of significance, those thoughts, memories, and behaviors made more numinious by attached emotion. Significance
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, endofthedream@y... wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                [snip]

                > > Well, actually this seems to be is a good example of not
                > > just "being in the presence of thoughts," but being caught up in
                > > them.
                >
                >
                > *****Let's look further. I don't disagree that the moment that the
                > thought "she's such a bitch" happens, in that one second, there is
                > caughtupness. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.

                That caughtupness is the presence of significance, those
                thoughts, memories, and behaviors made more numinious
                by attached emotion.

                Significance is what causes identity.

                --jody.

                [snip]
              • medit8ionsociety
                Andy wrote: snip ... Oh yeah - well, you better hope your wife doesn t see this ! :-)
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 17, 2003
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                  Andy wrote:

                  snip

                  > *****Let's look further. I don't disagree that the moment that the
                  > thought "she's such a bitch" happens, in that one second, there is
                  > caughtupness. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.

                  Oh yeah - well, you better hope your wife doesn't see this ! :-)
                • Andy
                  ... wrote: Andy wrote: snip ... Oh yeah - well, you better hope your wife doesn t see this ! :-) *****Hahaha!!!!! She already knows! :-)))))
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 18, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                    Andy wrote:

                    snip

                    > *****Let's look further. I don't disagree that the moment that the
                    > thought "she's such a bitch" happens, in that one second, there is
                    > caughtupness. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.


                    Oh yeah - well, you better hope your wife doesn't see this ! :-)


                    *****Hahaha!!!!! She already knows! :-)))))

                    Thank you Bob! (Big Hug!)
                  • texasbg2000
                    ... or ... Dear Bob: When I meditate it takes a while to settle in, get the posture, slow the breath, and notice the present. Then I center on the heart and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 18, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts,
                      or
                      > whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts
                      > occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
                      > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
                      > running away from these things leads to an infinity of discomforting
                      > mind chatter. The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
                      > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
                      > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite peace
                      > transcendent of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance and live
                      > happily ever after.

                      Dear Bob:

                      When I meditate it takes a while to settle in, get the posture, slow
                      the breath, and notice the present. Then I center on the heart and
                      the source of the breath, which reminds me again of the 'I am" the
                      first and last thought, the aham vritti. At this point I believe I
                      am in the space between the thoughts.

                      When I first heard the idea about four years ago, I thought I had to
                      find a fleeting space where no thought was present. I now see a
                      thought held in place and considered while aware of the "I am" as a
                      presented idea. Then another presented idea occurs and another and so
                      on. But each is independent of the others. Like bubbles rising. As
                      contrasted with the stream of thoughts one leading into another.

                      So to me, as long as I hold concentration on the heart, on the
                      breath, or on the I am, my thoughts have spaces between them.

                      Then comes a choice. I can give up this quiet meditation or I can
                      give into a seductive thought. The pleasure of thinking about some
                      things is great. I need to be able to say "I will give up the
                      pleasure of thinking of this to remain silent". The practice here is
                      to consider nothing more important than silence. The more often this
                      occurs the stronger the meditation. No matter what the thought, I
                      need to be able to give it up.

                      If I don't, who am I kidding?

                      Love,
                      Bobby G.

                      PS- I see a thought as the larger arena of "stream of thinking" as
                      contrasted with the 'presented idea' which is one idea held in the
                      mind. Thoughts are big and have many facets and one facets leads to
                      another.

                      Actually I believe when these ideas were presented hundreds of years
                      ago, this distinction may have been made in person by the teachers
                      for students to learn to meditate. It would be awfully hard to write
                      about it in an impersonal way and be totally clear without some
                      dialogue and many shared references. Today the general acceptance of
                      the definition of thoughts and thinking may be different than it was
                      back then.
                      Love, BG
                    • medit8ionsociety
                      ... Yo Bobby G, Brilliant thoughts! And as such, they have brought to light some other thoughts. I hope you don t mind, but I ve got a question for you that
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 18, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                        <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts,
                        > or
                        > > whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts
                        > > occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or going
                        > > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
                        > > running away from these things leads to an infinity of discomforting
                        > > mind chatter. The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
                        > > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
                        > > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite peace
                        > > transcendent of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance and live
                        > > happily ever after.
                        >
                        > Dear Bob:
                        >
                        > When I meditate it takes a while to settle in, get the posture, slow
                        > the breath, and notice the present. Then I center on the heart and
                        > the source of the breath, which reminds me again of the 'I am" the
                        > first and last thought, the aham vritti. At this point I believe I
                        > am in the space between the thoughts.
                        >
                        > When I first heard the idea about four years ago, I thought I had to
                        > find a fleeting space where no thought was present. I now see a
                        > thought held in place and considered while aware of the "I am" as a
                        > presented idea. Then another presented idea occurs and another and so
                        > on. But each is independent of the others. Like bubbles rising. As
                        > contrasted with the stream of thoughts one leading into another.
                        >
                        > So to me, as long as I hold concentration on the heart, on the
                        > breath, or on the I am, my thoughts have spaces between them.
                        >
                        > Then comes a choice. I can give up this quiet meditation or I can
                        > give into a seductive thought. The pleasure of thinking about some
                        > things is great. I need to be able to say "I will give up the
                        > pleasure of thinking of this to remain silent". The practice here is
                        > to consider nothing more important than silence. The more often this
                        > occurs the stronger the meditation. No matter what the thought, I
                        > need to be able to give it up.
                        >
                        > If I don't, who am I kidding?
                        >
                        > Love,
                        > Bobby G.
                        >
                        > PS- I see a thought as the larger arena of "stream of thinking" as
                        > contrasted with the 'presented idea' which is one idea held in the
                        > mind. Thoughts are big and have many facets and one facets leads to
                        > another.
                        >
                        > Actually I believe when these ideas were presented hundreds of years
                        > ago, this distinction may have been made in person by the teachers
                        > for students to learn to meditate. It would be awfully hard to write
                        > about it in an impersonal way and be totally clear without some
                        > dialogue and many shared references. Today the general acceptance of
                        > the definition of thoughts and thinking may be different than it was
                        > back then.
                        > Love, BG

                        Yo Bobby G,

                        Brilliant thoughts! And as such, they have brought to light some other
                        thoughts. I hope you don't mind, but I've got a question for you that
                        deals with art as a form of meditation in action. Your beautiful and
                        skillful art seems so carefully crafted, and I'm wondering how you see
                        your artistic creativity. Do you see your art as coming from this
                        space between thoughts we are speaking about? And would you say that
                        after it appears on the canvas, you then think about it? And do you
                        then go back to the space between thoughts to allow what comes next to
                        appear. Or....???

                        Peace and blessings,
                        Bob

                        Peace and blessings,
                        Bob
                      • texasbg2000
                        ... medit8ionsociety ... thoughts, ... thoughts ... going ... discomforting ... brilliance is ... peace ... live ... slow ... and ... the ... believe I ... to
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 19, 2003
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                          > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          medit8ionsociety
                          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > > Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions,
                          thoughts,
                          > > or
                          > > > whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the
                          thoughts
                          > > > occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either drawn toward or
                          going
                          > > > away from the objects of your thoughts. All the chasing after or
                          > > > running away from these things leads to an infinity of
                          discomforting
                          > > > mind chatter. The space between your thoughts is where
                          brilliance is
                          > > > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
                          > > > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite
                          peace
                          > > > transcendent of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance and
                          live
                          > > > happily ever after.
                          > >
                          > > Dear Bob:
                          > >
                          > > When I meditate it takes a while to settle in, get the posture,
                          slow
                          > > the breath, and notice the present. Then I center on the heart
                          and
                          > > the source of the breath, which reminds me again of the 'I am"
                          the
                          > > first and last thought, the aham vritti. At this point I
                          believe I
                          > > am in the space between the thoughts.
                          > >
                          > > When I first heard the idea about four years ago, I thought I had
                          to
                          > > find a fleeting space where no thought was present. I now see a
                          > > thought held in place and considered while aware of the "I am" as
                          a
                          > > presented idea. Then another presented idea occurs and another
                          and so
                          > > on. But each is independent of the others. Like bubbles
                          rising. As
                          > > contrasted with the stream of thoughts one leading into another.
                          > >
                          > > So to me, as long as I hold concentration on the heart, on the
                          > > breath, or on the I am, my thoughts have spaces between them.
                          > >
                          > > Then comes a choice. I can give up this quiet meditation or I
                          can
                          > > give into a seductive thought. The pleasure of thinking about
                          some
                          > > things is great. I need to be able to say "I will give up the
                          > > pleasure of thinking of this to remain silent". The practice
                          here is
                          > > to consider nothing more important than silence. The more often
                          this
                          > > occurs the stronger the meditation. No matter what the thought,
                          I
                          > > need to be able to give it up.
                          > >
                          > > If I don't, who am I kidding?
                          > >
                          > > Love,
                          > > Bobby G.
                          > >
                          > > PS- I see a thought as the larger arena of "stream of thinking"
                          as
                          > > contrasted with the 'presented idea' which is one idea held in
                          the
                          > > mind. Thoughts are big and have many facets and one facets
                          leads to
                          > > another.
                          > >
                          > > Actually I believe when these ideas were presented hundreds of
                          years
                          > > ago, this distinction may have been made in person by the
                          teachers
                          > > for students to learn to meditate. It would be awfully hard to
                          write
                          > > about it in an impersonal way and be totally clear without some
                          > > dialogue and many shared references. Today the general
                          acceptance of
                          > > the definition of thoughts and thinking may be different than it
                          was
                          > > back then.
                          > > Love, BG
                          >
                          > Yo Bobby G,
                          >
                          > Brilliant thoughts!

                          Brilliant segue! Bob Ji!

                          And as such, they have brought to light some other
                          > thoughts. I hope you don't mind, but I've got a question for you
                          that
                          > deals with art as a form of meditation in action. Your beautiful and
                          > skillful art seems so carefully crafted, and I'm wondering how you
                          see
                          > your artistic creativity. Do you see your art as coming from this
                          > space between thoughts we are speaking about?

                          Yes I think the creative aspects always must come from there as a
                          matter of definition. It it is creative, then it is something new.
                          I think ordinary thoughts are rehashed memory or memory enhanced
                          perceptions (or dehanced?). But the good parts, the harmony, (when it
                          happens), arises full blown. For instance a color will emerge in my
                          imagination and I know it will sing with the other colors.

                          And would you say that
                          > after it appears on the canvas, you then think about it?

                          Yeah I get a little love goin' on there, just me and the pic.

                          And do you
                          > then go back to the space between thoughts to allow what comes next
                          to
                          > appear. Or....???

                          To tell the truth, a lot of my negative traits come up when I paint.
                          I plot revenge for slights and what not. I remember things that I
                          would rather not remember. In short I am vulnerable when I paint.
                          Some of this may be due to holding the breath to make certain marks.
                          Patanjali says lack of breath control is a symptom of a distraction.
                          Maybe the reverse is true.

                          After a session especially with live models I am in the meditative
                          state. This may be what you are referring to. Or there are times
                          when the image is realizing (getting clearer) that each passage
                          results in this stopping of the mind.

                          So I paint with inspiration from the space between the thoughts and
                          think about it or upload the file to the verbal portfolio, then sink
                          into oblivion again.

                          So, yes now that I think about it I guess the silence between the
                          thoughts is good for painting and vice versa.

                          Thanks Bob.
                          Love
                          Bobby G.


                          >
                          > Peace and blessings,
                          > Bob
                          >
                          > Peace and blessings,
                          > Bob
                        • medit8ionsociety
                          Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body, emotions, thoughts, or whatever, eventually realization of a moment between the thoughts occurs. When in the
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 21, 2009
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                            Sitting in meditation and witnessing your body,
                            emotions, thoughts, or whatever, eventually
                            realization of a moment between the thoughts
                            occurs. When in the thoughts, you are either
                            drawn toward or going away from the objects of
                            your thoughts. All the chasing after or running
                            away from these things leads to an infinity of
                            discomforting mind chatter. The space between
                            your thoughts is where brilliance is found.
                            Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in
                            wisdom. The brilliance between thoughts is the
                            experience of the infinite peace transcendent
                            of thought. The wise attend to the brilliance
                            and live happily ever after.
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