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Re: Keeping a Spiritual Journal

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  • Swami-G
    ... respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that there are no levels of consciousness (IE: mocking ...the idea that some yous
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      > Hi again,
      > I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of
      respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position
      that there are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the
      idea that some "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me
      there is no inaccuracy with that , but it occured to me that this
      isn't at all incongrous with journaling, as typified by the Swami
      Sivananda(who was a Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method
      below, because if you look at it, it really is a method of looking at
      "Who am I". Just a thought (and you know how much trouble
      they can get you in:-)
      > Bob

      SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point .... not
      even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
      event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
      .... the illusion broken ......

      until that time one is within duality and uses whatever is at hand
      to come to that point where the duality falls away .....

      this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
      consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
      levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
      goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be levels .....

      you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
      is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
      there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
      that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
      that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
      patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
      contemplated and broken through ...... this comes by
      witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry or Neti Neti
      which then takes over to cut the knots of illusion...... but this
      arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not by self as a
      limitational practice .....

      Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
      there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ...... etc.etc......
      that is true for the liberated One but not for those that are still
      within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........
      for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
      right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great paradox .......

      shanti om
    • medit8ionsociety
      Swami-G wrote: snip ... not ... etc.etc...... ... Thank you Swami Gji, Recently we had a post questioning why an Advaitan would be
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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        "Swami-G" <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:
        snip
        > SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....
        not
        > even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
        > event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
        > .... the illusion broken ......
        >
        > until that time one is within duality and uses whatever is at hand
        > to come to that point where the duality falls away .....
        >
        > this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
        > consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
        > levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
        > goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be levels
        .....
        >
        > you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
        > is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
        > there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
        > that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
        > that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
        > patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
        > contemplated and broken through ...... this comes by
        > witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry or Neti Neti
        > which then takes over to cut the knots of illusion...... but this
        > arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not by self as a
        > limitational practice .....
        >
        > Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
        > there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
        etc.etc......
        > that is true for the liberated One but not for those that are still
        > within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........
        > for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
        > right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great paradox
        .......
        >
        > shanti om

        Thank you Swami Gji,
        Recently we had a post questioning why an Advaitan would be posting
        here on a meditation site, and also had Advaita postings that spoke of
        'no need to meditate'. Your comments unify these positions eloquently
        and wisely. Thanks again.
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob
      • carolina112900
        ... What s a gender genie? Will I get trampled at the Wal-Mart if I go there to buy one?
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
          <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > P.S. My letter below was analysed as 'male' by
          > the gender genie. Lol!
          >


          What's a gender genie?

          Will I get trampled at the
          Wal-Mart if I go there to
          buy one?



          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
          > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > > Bob, I don't know much about Swami Sivananda, his
          > > methods or reasons, but that collection of journal
          > > questions doesn't ask the right questions for self-
          > > reflection.
        • Nina
          ... Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda s wording of the questions had to do with a masculine approach to language, not that it would lead to enlightenment only
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Anyway, maybe it
            > is a gender thing, and I did enjoy the article, but one of his most
            > well known "Enlightened" disciples was a female - Sivananda-Rahda.
            > In any event, you may be right and Sivananda may not be asking the
            > "qualitative" questions that I see in his words, but I am not alone
            > in this perception.

            Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda's wording of the
            questions had to do with a masculine approach to language,
            not that it would lead to enlightenment only among males.

            Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
            as long as someone else agrees with you?

            hehe,
            Nina
          • Nina
            ... LOL! Well, ok, but I seriously doubt I will need a reprimand for speaking my mind. I ve done my share of journaling... it is smoke in the wind. There is
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "devianandi"
              <devi@p...> wrote:
              >
              > >nina: Swami Sivananda could have taken lessons from a grade-school
              > > teacher or a newspaper reporter as regards asking good,
              > > leading questions...
              >
              > devi: i suggest that you take a look at swami sivananda and then
              > reprimand yourself for this comment! haha tsk tsk....it seems to
              > me that journaling might be a good practice for you...haha
              >
              > love
              > devi

              LOL! Well, ok, but I seriously doubt I will need
              a reprimand for speaking my mind.

              I've done my share of journaling... it is smoke
              in the wind. There is always this tendency to
              cling to the journals and say: this is who I am.

              Perhaps this is another hidden motive of Sivananda's.

              Too bad he has passed, we could invite him to tea
              and discuss journaling...

              Nina
            • Nina
              ... You might not get trampled, but you d probably get a funny look for using the word gender ... Here is the link: http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                > > P.S. My letter below was analysed as 'male' by
                > > the gender genie. Lol!
                > >
                >
                >
                > What's a gender genie?
                >
                > Will I get trampled at the
                > Wal-Mart if I go there to
                > buy one?

                You might not get trampled,
                but you'd probably get a funny
                look for using the word 'gender'...

                Here is the link:

                http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html

                Nina
              • tosime
                Hello Everyone, I will be traveling to LA (from Lagos) tomorrow, for a one week training course. Look forward to posting again when I get back. .Tony ... From:
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                  Hello Everyone,

                   

                  I will be traveling to LA (from Lagos) tomorrow, for a one week training course.

                   

                  Look forward to posting again when I get back.

                   

                  …Tony

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Nina [mailto:murrkis@...]
                  Sent:
                  Friday, December 05, 2003 11:04 PM
                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Meditation Society of
                  America] Re: Keeping a Spiritual Journal

                   

                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > Anyway, maybe it
                  > is a gender thing, and I did enjoy the article, but one of his most
                  > well known "Enlightened" disciples was a female - Sivananda-Rahda.
                  > In any event, you may be right and Sivananda may not be asking the
                  > "qualitative" questions that I see in his words, but I am not alone
                  > in this perception.

                  Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda's wording of the
                  questions had to do with a masculine approach to language,
                  not that it would lead to enlightenment only among males.

                  Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
                  as long as someone else agrees with you?

                  hehe,
                  Nina




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                • medit8ionsociety
                  Nina wrote: snip ... Of course! That s why it s true the Earth if flat, and GWB is President:-) And, this reminds me of a Nasrudin tale I
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:

                    snip

                    > Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
                    > as long as someone else agrees with you?
                    >
                    > hehe,
                    > Nina

                    Of course! That's why it's true the Earth if flat,
                    and GWB is President:-)
                    And, this reminds me of a Nasrudin tale
                    I heard recently, and as I'm akways looking for
                    a chance to tell them, here itis........

                    "Nasrudin how can we trust that
                    what you teach is genuine?"
                    "You should listen to my friends,"
                    replied the Mullah.
                    "But Hodja, they all say you are a fraud."
                    "Well then," said the Mullah, "listen to my enemies."
                    "But Hodja, they all say you are a fraud."
                    "Then what is required is an expert
                    opinion - we need the opinion of a fraud"
                  • Andy
                    ... wrote: Hi Swami-G ~ SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point .... *****Other than at the moment of death (and
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Swami-G"
                      <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:

                      Hi Swami-G ~


                      SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....


                      *****Other than at the moment of death (and thereafter), when is one
                      not within duality?


                      not even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                      event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
                      .... the illusion broken ...... until that time one is within
                      duality and uses whatever is at hand to come to that point where the
                      duality falls away .....


                      *****Are you suggesting that post-awakening one is no longer "in"
                      duality, no longer functioning in duality, that for one who is awake,
                      duality no longer exists?


                      this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                      consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                      levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                      goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be
                      levels .....

                      you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                      is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........


                      *****OK. Denial is not liberating. Then...what is liberating? Is
                      liberation an understanding that is caused? If so, by what?


                      there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
                      that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                      that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                      patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                      contemplated and broken through ......


                      *****Certainly this may be so...for some. Just as meditation may
                      contribute to the surfacing of the understanding that nothing was
                      ever needed, that it was the search itself which kept the "game"
                      going. However, there are no prescriptions which are appropriate for
                      all. Each apparent entity will be guided to do what it needs to do,
                      whether that is journaling, meditating, praying, chanting,
                      psychotherapy ... it's all being taken quite good care of.



                      this comes by witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry
                      or Neti Neti which then takes over to cut the knots of
                      illusion...... but this arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not
                      by self as a limitational practice .....


                      Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                      there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
                      etc.etc...... that is true for the liberated One but not for those
                      that are still within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........


                      *****Actually, it is true for all, although all may not realize it as
                      such. (Reminds me of the old EST aphorism: "The truth believed is a
                      lie.")


                      for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                      right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great
                      paradox .......


                      *****Yes. It is a one-sided coin.

                      ~ andy
                    • Onniko
                      ... same ... to ... *v* More perfect :o? which tony is this...from harshaji ... old ... journal, ... very ... with
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "devianandi"
                        <devi@p...> wrote:
                        > devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the
                        same
                        > activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i want
                        to
                        > make myself more perfect...

                        *v* More perfect :o?

                        which tony is this...from harshaji
                        > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind
                        > enough
                        > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very
                        old
                        > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting
                        journal,
                        > and
                        > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a
                        very
                        > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested
                        > using,
                        > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                        > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                        > >
                        > > Spiritual Diary
                        > > Month : ________________
                        > > Questions
                        > >
                        > > Date
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what self-
                        > punishment ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and
                        with
                        > > what self-punishment ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or
                        > Nirguna
                        > > Dhyana) ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
                      • jodyrrr
                        ... Listen, to each his own, but I guess I m a guy who finds this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we must conform to some ridiculously
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind enough
                          > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
                          > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal, and
                          > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
                          > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested using,
                          > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                          > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                          >
                          > Spiritual Diary
                          > Month : ________________
                          > Questions
                          >
                          > Date
                          >
                          >
                          > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                          >
                          >
                          > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?

                          >
                          >
                          > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what self-punishment ?

                          >
                          >
                          > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
                          > what self-punishment ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or Nirguna
                          > Dhyana) ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                          >
                          >
                          > 27. When did you go to bed ?

                          Listen, to each his own, but I guess I'm a guy who finds
                          this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we
                          must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime
                          in order to come to understanding is a huge, huge
                          occlusion in spiritual culture.

                          This kind of Victorian disciplinism is the result of
                          cultural mistranslation and a complete lack of
                          historical perspective. I'm not saying it won't be the
                          thing someone does before they come to understanding,
                          but its presentation as a paradigm of spiritual practice
                          is much more at home in a letter written 125 years ago
                          imo.

                          --jody.
                        • medit8ionsociety
                          ... self-punishment ? ... Dear Jodyji, This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                            "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind enough
                            > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
                            > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal, and
                            > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
                            > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested using,
                            > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                            > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                            > >
                            > > Spiritual Diary
                            > > Month : ________________
                            > > Questions
                            > >
                            > > Date
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what
                            self-punishment ?
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
                            > > what self-punishment ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or Nirguna
                            > > Dhyana) ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
                            >
                            > Listen, to each his own, but I guess I'm a guy who finds
                            > this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we
                            > must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime
                            > in order to come to understanding is a huge, huge
                            > occlusion in spiritual culture.
                            >
                            > This kind of Victorian disciplinism is the result of
                            > cultural mistranslation and a complete lack of
                            > historical perspective. I'm not saying it won't be the
                            > thing someone does before they come to understanding,
                            > but its presentation as a paradigm of spiritual practice
                            > is much more at home in a letter written 125 years ago
                            > imo.
                            >
                            > --jody.

                            Dear Jodyji,
                            This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami
                            Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan chanting, Jhana,
                            Raja, Bhakti, and Karma Yoga methodologies, and in his 350+ books, you
                            can see a synthesis of pointings that come down to his (most
                            "un-authoritarian" and "un-disciplinism" of all types of 'regimes')
                            summary of his teachings...."Be good. Do good". But for some of his
                            disciples, like Swami Vishnu-Devananda (founder of the internationally
                            well known Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers), it proved to be a valuable
                            tool in their coming to Realization. BTW, I have read more than 80 of
                            his books, and have never found anywhere anything pointing to "The
                            idea that we must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime in
                            order to come to understanding" that you stated. He was one of the
                            kindest, and most humble gurus I have ever read about or heard stories
                            about. He always put others before himself, and made a habit of caring
                            for the poor and sick personally.
                            I'll just cite one continuing activity of his that demonstrates the
                            kind of person we are discussing - He would allow his followers to
                            worship him, if that was what fit the needs of others, but would then
                            go and wash sick saddhu's feet so as not to get big-headed about all
                            the veneration. No Rolls Royces, and no just sitting on a mat beeming
                            blissfully. Not that these things are "bad" either.
                            Peace and blessings,
                            Bob
                          • Swami-G
                            ... Swami-G ... is one ... transcended ... where the ... in ... awake, ... but ... may ... was ... appropriate for ... do, ... Enquiry ... not ...
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                              <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              "Swami-G"
                              > <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Swami-G ~
                              >
                              >
                              > SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....
                              >
                              >
                              > *****Other than at the moment of death (and thereafter), when
                              is one
                              > not within duality?
                              >
                              >
                              > not even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                              > event........ a point in duality where the mind was
                              transcended
                              > .... the illusion broken ...... until that time one is within
                              > duality and uses whatever is at hand to come to that point
                              where the
                              > duality falls away .....
                              >
                              >
                              > *****Are you suggesting that post-awakening one is no longer
                              "in"
                              > duality, no longer functioning in duality, that for one who is
                              awake,
                              > duality no longer exists?
                              >
                              >
                              > this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                              > consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                              > levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                              > goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be
                              > levels .....
                              >
                              > you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                              > is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
                              >
                              >
                              > *****OK. Denial is not liberating. Then...what is liberating? Is
                              > liberation an understanding that is caused? If so, by what?
                              >
                              >
                              > there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita
                              but
                              > that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                              > that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                              > patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                              > contemplated and broken through ......
                              >
                              >
                              > *****Certainly this may be so...for some. Just as meditation
                              may
                              > contribute to the surfacing of the understanding that nothing
                              was
                              > ever needed, that it was the search itself which kept the "game"
                              > going. However, there are no prescriptions which are
                              appropriate for
                              > all. Each apparent entity will be guided to do what it needs to
                              do,
                              > whether that is journaling, meditating, praying, chanting,
                              > psychotherapy ... it's all being taken quite good care of.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > this comes by witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self
                              Enquiry
                              > or Neti Neti which then takes over to cut the knots of
                              > illusion...... but this arises in a deep spontaneous manner and
                              not
                              > by self as a limitational practice .....
                              >
                              >
                              > Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                              > there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
                              > etc.etc...... that is true for the liberated One but not for those
                              > that are still within the mundane mental cognition and
                              drama.........
                              >
                              >
                              > *****Actually, it is true for all, although all may not realize it as
                              > such. (Reminds me of the old EST aphorism: "The truth
                              believed is a
                              > lie.")
                              >
                              >
                              > for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                              > right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great
                              > paradox .......
                              >
                              >
                              > *****Yes. It is a one-sided coin.
                              >
                              > ~ andy


                              SG: i am not here to debate, nor am i *suggesting*
                              anything ...... what has been said has been said as it is .......
                              enough said .......

                              if you want more clarity about what was written email me
                              directly ..... i won't waste the groups time on intellectual clap
                              trap ......


                              crystalkundalini@...
                            • jodyrrr
                              ... wrote: [snip] ... Hey Bob. I m sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did. I certainly didn t mean it that way. In
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                [snip]

                                > Dear Jodyji,
                                > This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami
                                > Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan chanting, Jhana,
                                > Raja, Bhakti, and Karma Yoga methodologies, and in his 350+ books, you
                                > can see a synthesis of pointings that come down to his (most
                                > "un-authoritarian" and "un-disciplinism" of all types of 'regimes')
                                > summary of his teachings...."Be good. Do good". But for some of his
                                > disciples, like Swami Vishnu-Devananda (founder of the internationally
                                > well known Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers), it proved to be a valuable
                                > tool in their coming to Realization. BTW, I have read more than 80 of
                                > his books, and have never found anywhere anything pointing to "The
                                > idea that we must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime in
                                > order to come to understanding" that you stated. He was one of the
                                > kindest, and most humble gurus I have ever read about or heard stories
                                > about. He always put others before himself, and made a habit of caring
                                > for the poor and sick personally.
                                > I'll just cite one continuing activity of his that demonstrates the
                                > kind of person we are discussing - He would allow his followers to
                                > worship him, if that was what fit the needs of others, but would then
                                > go and wash sick saddhu's feet so as not to get big-headed about all
                                > the veneration. No Rolls Royces, and no just sitting on a mat beeming
                                > blissfully. Not that these things are "bad" either.
                                > Peace and blessings,
                                > Bob

                                Hey Bob.

                                I'm sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did.
                                I certainly didn't mean it that way. In fact, my tradition is much
                                the same as taught by *my* guru and his preceptors.

                                I wasn't commenting on the author of the journal, I was attempting
                                to point out that the content of the journal was way, way outdated,
                                and that the acceptance of this kind of outdated material is cause
                                for as much ignorance as it is understanding. That's just my opinion
                                of course, but I'd have to say that the times, they are a changin',
                                and have been changing, a lot.

                                Your guru may have said these things in the 60s or 70s, but he
                                was reiterating the content of the 1800s. Also, he was Indian,
                                born and raised in India. His understanding was unlimited, but
                                his world map was firmly anchored in a whole different milieu.

                                I mean not a shred of disrespect, but I'm trying to put it in
                                historical perspective. That seems to be missed so often
                                in the arena of Indian thought as it resides in the West.

                                Swami Sivananda is unassailable, I agree. But as a historical
                                figure from an anthropological perspective, he was a man of
                                his times and his culture. His being in complete spiritual
                                understanding does not preclude the fact that some of what
                                he wrote just doesn't fit with the times anymore, and even
                                when he wrote it, it was out of a completely different cultural
                                milieu than the one he was presenting it in.

                                Again Bobji, I certainly don't mean to question Sivananda's
                                understanding or your judgement in regarding him as you do.

                                --jody.
                              • medit8ionsociety
                                jodyrrr wrote: snip ... opinion of course, but I d have to say that the times, they are a changin , ... Yo Jodyji, Actually, I never have had
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                  "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

                                  snip

                                  > Hey Bob.

                                  > I'm sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did.
                                  > I certainly didn't mean it that way. In fact, my tradition is much
                                  > the same as taught by *my* guru and his preceptors.
                                  >
                                  > I wasn't commenting on the author of the journal, I was attempting
                                  > to point out that the content of the journal was way, way outdated,
                                  > and that the acceptance of this kind of outdated material is cause
                                  > for as much ignorance as it is understanding. That's just my
                                  opinion of course, but I'd have to say that the times, they are a
                                  changin',
                                  > and have been changing, a lot.
                                  >
                                  > Your guru may have said these things in the 60s or 70s, but he
                                  > was reiterating the content of the 1800s. Also, he was Indian,
                                  > born and raised in India. His understanding was unlimited, but
                                  > his world map was firmly anchored in a whole different milieu.

                                  > I mean not a shred of disrespect, but I'm trying to put it in
                                  > historical perspective. That seems to be missed so often
                                  > in the arena of Indian thought as it resides in the West.
                                  >
                                  > Swami Sivananda is unassailable, I agree. But as a historical
                                  > figure from an anthropological perspective, he was a man of
                                  > his times and his culture. His being in complete spiritual
                                  > understanding does not preclude the fact that some of what
                                  > he wrote just doesn't fit with the times anymore, and even
                                  > when he wrote it, it was out of a completely different cultural
                                  > milieu than the one he was presenting it in.
                                  >
                                  > Again Bobji, I certainly don't mean to question Sivananda's
                                  > understanding or your judgement in regarding him as you do.
                                  >
                                  > --jody.

                                  Yo Jodyji,
                                  Actually, I never have had a formal "guru", and the only initiation I
                                  ever was involved with was with Guru Maharaji's "Knowledge". But
                                  that's another story for another time. One of the main influences on
                                  me over the past 35 years though, has been one of Swami Sivananda's
                                  disciples, Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda, and it was from hearing
                                  his stories about Sivananda that I first had an interest in him. My
                                  initial reaction to one of his books though, was exactly what yours
                                  seems to be - IE: "This guy is way too old-fashioned for my tastes" or
                                  some similar kind of thing. Then about 10 years later, I again opened
                                  one of his books and "got high" with every sentence. As someone who
                                  wasted/spent 20 years just seeking methods and techniques to get high,
                                  and had finally stopped caring about attaining or experiencing "higher
                                  levels of consciousness", I was somewhat surprised how quickly I
                                  became addicted to Sivananda's down to earth dissections of the
                                  heaviest of topics (the Upanishads, Gita, Bible, philosophy,
                                  psychology, etc.), and how filled with love, contentment, and bliss
                                  reading and contemplating his words brought to me. At one point I even
                                  asked Swami Satchidananda if I was being inappropriate in some
                                  attachment way by gobbling up all the Sivananda readings I could get
                                  my hands on. He said absolutely not, and that there was no better
                                  thing I could be doing. So I stopped worrying about it, enjoyed it,
                                  and eventually this ran its course, and I no longer do much reading
                                  about anything "spiritual" except for those things that come to me
                                  related to being the editor of The Inner Traveler and the President of
                                  the Meditation Society of America. As a matter of fact, there is no
                                  doubt that I quote St. Homer Simson in our meditation classes much
                                  more than Sivananda, but for me, he is just as contemporary and
                                  universal a source of wisdom.
                                  Peace and blessings,
                                  Bob
                                  PS: Thanks for your gentle way of communicating. You're a class act.
                                • devianandi
                                  ... same ... want ... hi, i just spent the last two days and 800 dollars on a new computer..i meant to reply to you days ago but didn t get a chance till now.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                    > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the
                                    same
                                    > > activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i
                                    want
                                    > to
                                    > > make myself more perfect...which tony is this...from harshaji
                                    > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                    >
                                    > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                    > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                    > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                    >
                                    > curmudgeonly,
                                    > Nina

                                    hi, i just spent the last two days and 800 dollars on a new
                                    computer..i meant to reply to you days ago but didn't get a chance
                                    till now.

                                    nina my love and inspiration,

                                    tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                    more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?

                                    do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                    any room for a more perfect living?

                                    love
                                    devi
                                  • Nina
                                    ... Hello, Devi, Of course, this may only be my interpretation, but I detected in your first letter the sense of perfecting equating to making better , as
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                      > > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just
                                      > > > thinking of doing the same
                                      > > > activity..not because of self-inquiry
                                      > > > though..it is becuase i want to
                                      > > > make myself more perfect...which tony
                                      > > > is this...from harshaji
                                      > > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                      > >
                                      > > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                      > > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                      > > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                      >
                                      > nina my love and inspiration,
                                      >
                                      > tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                      > more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?
                                      >
                                      > do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                      > any room for a more perfect living?

                                      Hello, Devi,

                                      Of course, this may only be my interpretation,
                                      but I detected in your first letter the sense of
                                      'perfecting' equating to 'making better', as it
                                      relates to behaving in a certain way as can be
                                      inferred from Sivananda's set of journal questions.

                                      Does the application of those behavioral constraints
                                      create a more perfect person? No, though it may allow
                                      one to feel more 'spiritually correct', and provide
                                      leverage for the battles that are waged on the
                                      plains of spiritual conquest.

                                      What if, in the spirit of neti neti, we assumed that
                                      all the rules for correct spiritual behavior had
                                      fallen away. What would remain? How would we live our
                                      lives? What would dictate our quality of being?

                                      It is awfully easy to assume Sivananda's implied
                                      behavioral mores via journal questions as the
                                      'correct way to live', and perfect ourselves to
                                      his vision (however valid it may be) of perfection,
                                      while all the time completely ignoring our own
                                      heart path, which has at its root, a perfection
                                      which exists apriori to any behavior.

                                      I would propose, that rather than taking on new
                                      patterns of behavior, and enforcing them upon
                                      oneself, that one discover the most perfect patterns
                                      of behavior within, and allow those to move into
                                      effulgence.

                                      I guess the next question might be:
                                      what's perfect?

                                      Nina
                                    • Jeff Belyea
                                      ... Everything (ΓΌ) Jeff
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <
                                        murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                        > > > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just
                                        > > > > thinking of doing the same
                                        > > > > activity..not because of self-inquiry
                                        > > > > though..it is becuase i want to
                                        > > > > make myself more perfect...which tony
                                        > > > > is this...from harshaji
                                        > > > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                        > > > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                        > > > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                        > >
                                        > > nina my love and inspiration,
                                        > >
                                        > > tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                        > > more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?
                                        > >
                                        > > do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                        > > any room for a more perfect living?
                                        >
                                        > Hello, Devi,
                                        >
                                        > Of course, this may only be my interpretation,
                                        > but I detected in your first letter the sense of
                                        > 'perfecting' equating to 'making better', as it
                                        > relates to behaving in a certain way as can be
                                        > inferred from Sivananda's set of journal questions.
                                        >
                                        > Does the application of those behavioral constraints
                                        > create a more perfect person? No, though it may allow
                                        > one to feel more 'spiritually correct', and provide
                                        > leverage for the battles that are waged on the
                                        > plains of spiritual conquest.
                                        >
                                        > What if, in the spirit of neti neti, we assumed that
                                        > all the rules for correct spiritual behavior had
                                        > fallen away. What would remain? How would we live our
                                        > lives? What would dictate our quality of being?
                                        >
                                        > It is awfully easy to assume Sivananda's implied
                                        > behavioral mores via journal questions as the
                                        > 'correct way to live', and perfect ourselves to
                                        > his vision (however valid it may be) of perfection,
                                        > while all the time completely ignoring our own
                                        > heart path, which has at its root, a perfection
                                        > which exists apriori to any behavior.
                                        >
                                        > I would propose, that rather than taking on new
                                        > patterns of behavior, and enforcing them upon
                                        > oneself, that one discover the most perfect patterns
                                        > of behavior within, and allow those to move into
                                        > effulgence.
                                        >
                                        > I guess the next question might be:
                                        > what's perfect?
                                        >
                                        > Nina

                                        Everything (ΓΌ)

                                        Jeff
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