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Re: Keeping a Spiritual Journal

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Hi again, I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that there are no
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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      Hi again,
      I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of respect
      and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that there
      are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the idea that some
      "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me there is no inaccuracy
      with that , but it occured to me that this isn't at all incongrous
      with journaling, as typified by the Swami Sivananda(who was a
      Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method below, because if you look at it, it
      really is a method of looking at "Who am I".
      Just a thought (and you know how much trouble they can get you in:-)
      Bob
      medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind enough
      > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
      > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal, and
      > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
      > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested using,
      > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
      > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
      >
      > Spiritual Diary
      > Month : ________________
      > Questions
      >
      > Date
      >
      >
      > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
      >
      >
      > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
      >
      >
      > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
      >
      >
      > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
      >
      >
      > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
      >
      >
      > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
      >
      >
      > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
      >
      >
      > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
      >
      >
      > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
      >
      >
      > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
      >
      >
      > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
      >
      >
      > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
      >
      >
      > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
      >
      >
      > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
      >
      >
      > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
      >
      >
      > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what
      self-punishment ?
      >
      >
      > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
      >
      >
      > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
      >
      >
      > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
      >
      >
      > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
      > what self-punishment ?
      >
      >
      > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or Nirguna
      > Dhyana) ?
      >
      >
      > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
      >
      >
      > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
      >
      >
      > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
      >
      >
      > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
      >
      >
      > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
      >
      >
      > 27. When did you go to bed ?
    • Andy
      ... Nothing is incongruous with consciousness. Even a misapprehension of what is, is, what is. The most insidious being the thought that a particular
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:

        > Hi again,
        > I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of
        > respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position
        > that there are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the
        > idea that some "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me
        > there is no inaccuracy with that , but it occured to me that this
        > isn't at all incongrous with journaling,


        Nothing is incongruous with consciousness.
        Even a misapprehension of what is, is, what is.
        The most insidious being the thought that a particular apprehension
        is more "right" than a specific misapprehension.



        > as typified by the Swami
        > Sivananda(who was a Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method below,
        > because if you look at it, it really is a method of looking
        > at "Who am I". Just a thought (and you know how much trouble
        > they can get you in:-)


        Only if they are believed. ;-)


        ~andy
      • Nina
        Bob, I don t know much about Swami Sivananda, his methods or reasons, but that collection of journal questions doesn t ask the right questions for self-
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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          Bob, I don't know much about Swami Sivananda, his
          methods or reasons, but that collection of journal
          questions doesn't ask the right questions for self-
          reflection. It is asking nearly all quantitative
          questions... as in #20, when the journaler is asked,
          how long did you control your evil habits and what
          punishments did you apply when you failed? Those
          questions are not asking 'who am i?', they don't
          even nudge a person to look in that direction,
          as the person is too busy keeping up with the implied
          rules of 'being good'. I am quite surprised, actually,
          by how few qualitative questions that survey asks...
          qualitative is where contemplation begins and
          the 'who am i?' question finds room to arise... qualitative,
          as in: "You are seeking enlightenment. Why? And what do
          you think these questions serve towards that end, if anything?"
          Swami Sivananda could have taken lessons from a grade-school
          teacher or a newspaper reporter as regards asking good,
          leading questions... otherwise, journaling becomes something
          of a science akin to filling out a police report... what errors
          were committed, and when and by whom? Ah-ha, perhaps I stand
          corrected... there is where the "who am I" comes in - as
          regards what crimes were committed...

          Then again, maybe it is a gender difference. For your
          enjoyment:

          http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html

          Nina

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Hi again,
          > I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of respect
          > and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that
          there
          > are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the idea that some
          > "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me there is no
          inaccuracy
          > with that , but it occured to me that this isn't at all incongrous
          > with journaling, as typified by the Swami Sivananda(who was a
          > Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method below, because if you look at it,
          it
          > really is a method of looking at "Who am I".
          > Just a thought (and you know how much trouble they can get you in:-)
          > Bob
          > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind
          enough
          > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very
          old
          > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting
          journal, and
          > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a
          very
          > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested
          using,
          > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
          > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
          > >
          > > Spiritual Diary
          > > Month : ________________
          > > Questions
          > >
          > > Date
          > >
          > >
          > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
          > >
          > >
          > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?

          > >
          > >
          > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what
          > self-punishment ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and
          with
          > > what self-punishment ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or
          Nirguna
          > > Dhyana) ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
          > >
          > >
          > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
        • devianandi
          devi: that s awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the same activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i want to make myself more
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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            devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the same
            activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i want to
            make myself more perfect...which tony is this...from harshaji
            satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...





            > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind
            enough
            > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
            > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal,
            and
            > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
            > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested
            using,
            > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
            > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
            >
            > Spiritual Diary
            > Month : ________________
            > Questions
            >
            > Date
            >
            >
            > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
            >
            >
            > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
            >
            >
            > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
            >
            >
            > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
            >
            >
            > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
            >
            >
            > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
            >
            >
            > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
            >
            >
            > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
            >
            >
            > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
            >
            >
            > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
            >
            >
            > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
            >
            >
            > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
            >
            >
            > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
            >
            >
            > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
            >
            >
            > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?

            >
            >
            > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what self-
            punishment ?
            >
            >
            > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
            >
            >
            > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
            >
            >
            > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
            >
            >
            > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
            > what self-punishment ?
            >
            >
            > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or
            Nirguna
            > Dhyana) ?
            >
            >
            > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
            >
            >
            > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
            >
            >
            > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
            >
            >
            > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
            >
            >
            > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
            >
            >
            > 27. When did you go to bed ?
          • Nina
            P.S. My letter below was analysed as male by the gender genie. Lol!
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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              P.S. My letter below was analysed as 'male' by
              the gender genie. Lol!

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
              <murrkis@y...> wrote:
              > Bob, I don't know much about Swami Sivananda, his
              > methods or reasons, but that collection of journal
              > questions doesn't ask the right questions for self-
              > reflection.
            • devianandi
              ... devi: i suggest that you take a look at swami sivananda and then reprimand yourself for this comment! haha tsk tsk....it seems to me that journaling might
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                >nina: Swami Sivananda could have taken lessons from a grade-school
                > teacher or a newspaper reporter as regards asking good,
                > leading questions...

                devi: i suggest that you take a look at swami sivananda and then
                reprimand yourself for this comment! haha tsk tsk....it seems to me
                that journaling might be a good practice for you...haha

                love
                devi
              • Nina
                ... to ... Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool to make oneself more perfect, not a tool make oneself more one with oneself... curmudgeonly, Nina
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "devianandi"
                  <devi@p...> wrote:
                  > devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the same
                  > activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i want
                  to
                  > make myself more perfect...which tony is this...from harshaji
                  > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...

                  Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                  to make oneself more perfect, not
                  a tool make oneself more one with oneself...

                  curmudgeonly,
                  Nina
                • medit8ionsociety
                  ... Dear Nina, Well, I (whoever that is) don t agree with your conclusion at all. By asking these type questions, I feel that the question of Who am I will
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                    "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                    > Bob, I don't know much about Swami Sivananda, his
                    > methods or reasons, but that collection of journal
                    > questions doesn't ask the right questions for self-
                    > reflection. It is asking nearly all quantitative
                    > questions... as in #20, when the journaler is asked,
                    > how long did you control your evil habits and what
                    > punishments did you apply when you failed? Those
                    > questions are not asking 'who am i?', they don't
                    > even nudge a person to look in that direction,
                    > as the person is too busy keeping up with the implied
                    > rules of 'being good'. I am quite surprised, actually,
                    > by how few qualitative questions that survey asks...
                    > qualitative is where contemplation begins and
                    > the 'who am i?' question finds room to arise... qualitative,
                    > as in: "You are seeking enlightenment. Why? And what do
                    > you think these questions serve towards that end, if anything?"
                    > Swami Sivananda could have taken lessons from a grade-school
                    > teacher or a newspaper reporter as regards asking good,
                    > leading questions... otherwise, journaling becomes something
                    > of a science akin to filling out a police report... what errors
                    > were committed, and when and by whom? Ah-ha, perhaps I stand
                    > corrected... there is where the "who am I" comes in - as
                    > regards what crimes were committed...
                    >
                    > Then again, maybe it is a gender difference. For your
                    > enjoyment:
                    >
                    > http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html
                    >
                    > Nina

                    Dear Nina,
                    Well, I (whoever that is) don't agree with your conclusion at all. By
                    asking these type questions, I feel that the question of "Who am I"
                    will inevitably come to the forefront. Sivananda would reply to the
                    answers sent to him by disciples by pointing to this directly, and
                    using the premise that the "guru" is actually within, the inner guru
                    will do what Sivananda did. BTW, there was no other more successful
                    guru (success defined by quantity of disciples that got
                    "Enlightened"), than Swami Sivananda. Similarly, his disciples have
                    had the greatest success since he died. Check out the Divine Life
                    Society site:
                    http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/home.html
                    and I'm sure you'll see what I'm referring to. I also think that the
                    question you pointed to..."How many times you failed in the control of
                    evil habits and with what self-punishment ?" does lead very well to
                    the "Who am I" inquiry, as it asks you to address the questions of
                    what are "evil" habits, "self" and "self-punishment", as well as one
                    of Sivananda's favorite themes and methodologies - pointing out that
                    one always "fails" when trying to control anything ('Thy - the big THY
                    in the sky and in our hearts - will be done', etc.). Anyway, maybe it
                    is a gender thing, and I did enjoy the article, but one of his most
                    well known "Enlightened" disciples was a female - Sivananda-Rahda.
                    In any event, you may be right and Sivananda may not be asking the
                    "qualitative" questions that I see in his words, but I am not alone in
                    this perception.
                    Peace and blessings,
                    Bob
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                    > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi again,
                    > > I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of respect
                    > > and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that
                    > there
                    > > are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the idea that some
                    > > "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me there is no
                    > inaccuracy
                    > > with that , but it occured to me that this isn't at all incongrous
                    > > with journaling, as typified by the Swami Sivananda(who was a
                    > > Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method below, because if you look at it,
                    > it
                    > > really is a method of looking at "Who am I".
                    > > Just a thought (and you know how much trouble they can get you in:-)
                    > > Bob
                    > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind
                    > enough
                    > > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very
                    > old
                    > > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting
                    > journal, and
                    > > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a
                    > very
                    > > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested
                    > using,
                    > > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                    > > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                    > > >
                    > > > Spiritual Diary
                    > > > Month : ________________
                    > > > Questions
                    > > >
                    > > > Date
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
                    >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what
                    > > self-punishment ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and
                    > with
                    > > > what self-punishment ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or
                    > Nirguna
                    > > > Dhyana) ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
                  • Swami-G
                    ... respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position that there are no levels of consciousness (IE: mocking ...the idea that some yous
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                      > Hi again,
                      > I just got a personal Email from someone I feel is worthy of
                      respect and listening to, who pointed to the Advaita-like position
                      that there are no "levels" of consciousness (IE: mocking "...the
                      idea that some "yous" are more "conscious",..."). Well, to me
                      there is no inaccuracy with that , but it occured to me that this
                      isn't at all incongrous with journaling, as typified by the Swami
                      Sivananda(who was a Vedantan/Advaitan himself) method
                      below, because if you look at it, it really is a method of looking at
                      "Who am I". Just a thought (and you know how much trouble
                      they can get you in:-)
                      > Bob

                      SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point .... not
                      even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                      event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
                      .... the illusion broken ......

                      until that time one is within duality and uses whatever is at hand
                      to come to that point where the duality falls away .....

                      this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                      consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                      levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                      goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be levels .....

                      you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                      is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
                      there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
                      that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                      that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                      patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                      contemplated and broken through ...... this comes by
                      witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry or Neti Neti
                      which then takes over to cut the knots of illusion...... but this
                      arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not by self as a
                      limitational practice .....

                      Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                      there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ...... etc.etc......
                      that is true for the liberated One but not for those that are still
                      within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........
                      for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                      right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great paradox .......

                      shanti om
                    • medit8ionsociety
                      Swami-G wrote: snip ... not ... etc.etc...... ... Thank you Swami Gji, Recently we had a post questioning why an Advaitan would be
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                        "Swami-G" <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:
                        snip
                        > SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....
                        not
                        > even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                        > event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
                        > .... the illusion broken ......
                        >
                        > until that time one is within duality and uses whatever is at hand
                        > to come to that point where the duality falls away .....
                        >
                        > this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                        > consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                        > levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                        > goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be levels
                        .....
                        >
                        > you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                        > is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
                        > there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
                        > that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                        > that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                        > patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                        > contemplated and broken through ...... this comes by
                        > witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry or Neti Neti
                        > which then takes over to cut the knots of illusion...... but this
                        > arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not by self as a
                        > limitational practice .....
                        >
                        > Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                        > there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
                        etc.etc......
                        > that is true for the liberated One but not for those that are still
                        > within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........
                        > for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                        > right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great paradox
                        .......
                        >
                        > shanti om

                        Thank you Swami Gji,
                        Recently we had a post questioning why an Advaitan would be posting
                        here on a meditation site, and also had Advaita postings that spoke of
                        'no need to meditate'. Your comments unify these positions eloquently
                        and wisely. Thanks again.
                        Peace and blessings,
                        Bob
                      • carolina112900
                        ... What s a gender genie? Will I get trampled at the Wal-Mart if I go there to buy one?
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                          <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                          > P.S. My letter below was analysed as 'male' by
                          > the gender genie. Lol!
                          >


                          What's a gender genie?

                          Will I get trampled at the
                          Wal-Mart if I go there to
                          buy one?



                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                          > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                          > > Bob, I don't know much about Swami Sivananda, his
                          > > methods or reasons, but that collection of journal
                          > > questions doesn't ask the right questions for self-
                          > > reflection.
                        • Nina
                          ... Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda s wording of the questions had to do with a masculine approach to language, not that it would lead to enlightenment only
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > Anyway, maybe it
                            > is a gender thing, and I did enjoy the article, but one of his most
                            > well known "Enlightened" disciples was a female - Sivananda-Rahda.
                            > In any event, you may be right and Sivananda may not be asking the
                            > "qualitative" questions that I see in his words, but I am not alone
                            > in this perception.

                            Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda's wording of the
                            questions had to do with a masculine approach to language,
                            not that it would lead to enlightenment only among males.

                            Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
                            as long as someone else agrees with you?

                            hehe,
                            Nina
                          • Nina
                            ... LOL! Well, ok, but I seriously doubt I will need a reprimand for speaking my mind. I ve done my share of journaling... it is smoke in the wind. There is
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "devianandi"
                              <devi@p...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >nina: Swami Sivananda could have taken lessons from a grade-school
                              > > teacher or a newspaper reporter as regards asking good,
                              > > leading questions...
                              >
                              > devi: i suggest that you take a look at swami sivananda and then
                              > reprimand yourself for this comment! haha tsk tsk....it seems to
                              > me that journaling might be a good practice for you...haha
                              >
                              > love
                              > devi

                              LOL! Well, ok, but I seriously doubt I will need
                              a reprimand for speaking my mind.

                              I've done my share of journaling... it is smoke
                              in the wind. There is always this tendency to
                              cling to the journals and say: this is who I am.

                              Perhaps this is another hidden motive of Sivananda's.

                              Too bad he has passed, we could invite him to tea
                              and discuss journaling...

                              Nina
                            • Nina
                              ... You might not get trampled, but you d probably get a funny look for using the word gender ... Here is the link: http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                                <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                                > <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                > > P.S. My letter below was analysed as 'male' by
                                > > the gender genie. Lol!
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > What's a gender genie?
                                >
                                > Will I get trampled at the
                                > Wal-Mart if I go there to
                                > buy one?

                                You might not get trampled,
                                but you'd probably get a funny
                                look for using the word 'gender'...

                                Here is the link:

                                http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html

                                Nina
                              • tosime
                                Hello Everyone, I will be traveling to LA (from Lagos) tomorrow, for a one week training course. Look forward to posting again when I get back. .Tony ... From:
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                  Hello Everyone,

                                   

                                  I will be traveling to LA (from Lagos) tomorrow, for a one week training course.

                                   

                                  Look forward to posting again when I get back.

                                   

                                  …Tony

                                   

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Nina [mailto:murrkis@...]
                                  Sent:
                                  Friday, December 05, 2003 11:04 PM
                                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Meditation Society of
                                  America] Re: Keeping a Spiritual Journal

                                   

                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > Anyway, maybe it
                                  > is a gender thing, and I did enjoy the article, but one of his most
                                  > well known "Enlightened" disciples was a female - Sivananda-Rahda.
                                  > In any event, you may be right and Sivananda may not be asking the
                                  > "qualitative" questions that I see in his words, but I am not alone
                                  > in this perception.

                                  Ah, I meant that perhaps Sivananda's wording of the
                                  questions had to do with a masculine approach to language,
                                  not that it would lead to enlightenment only among males.

                                  Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
                                  as long as someone else agrees with you?

                                  hehe,
                                  Nina




                                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                • medit8ionsociety
                                  Nina wrote: snip ... Of course! That s why it s true the Earth if flat, and GWB is President:-) And, this reminds me of a Nasrudin tale I
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                    "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:

                                    snip

                                    > Are you trying to tell me that any conclusion is justified,
                                    > as long as someone else agrees with you?
                                    >
                                    > hehe,
                                    > Nina

                                    Of course! That's why it's true the Earth if flat,
                                    and GWB is President:-)
                                    And, this reminds me of a Nasrudin tale
                                    I heard recently, and as I'm akways looking for
                                    a chance to tell them, here itis........

                                    "Nasrudin how can we trust that
                                    what you teach is genuine?"
                                    "You should listen to my friends,"
                                    replied the Mullah.
                                    "But Hodja, they all say you are a fraud."
                                    "Well then," said the Mullah, "listen to my enemies."
                                    "But Hodja, they all say you are a fraud."
                                    "Then what is required is an expert
                                    opinion - we need the opinion of a fraud"
                                  • Andy
                                    ... wrote: Hi Swami-G ~ SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point .... *****Other than at the moment of death (and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Swami-G"
                                      <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:

                                      Hi Swami-G ~


                                      SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....


                                      *****Other than at the moment of death (and thereafter), when is one
                                      not within duality?


                                      not even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                                      event........ a point in duality where the mind was transcended
                                      .... the illusion broken ...... until that time one is within
                                      duality and uses whatever is at hand to come to that point where the
                                      duality falls away .....


                                      *****Are you suggesting that post-awakening one is no longer "in"
                                      duality, no longer functioning in duality, that for one who is awake,
                                      duality no longer exists?


                                      this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                                      consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                                      levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                                      goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be
                                      levels .....

                                      you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                                      is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........


                                      *****OK. Denial is not liberating. Then...what is liberating? Is
                                      liberation an understanding that is caused? If so, by what?


                                      there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita but
                                      that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                                      that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                                      patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                                      contemplated and broken through ......


                                      *****Certainly this may be so...for some. Just as meditation may
                                      contribute to the surfacing of the understanding that nothing was
                                      ever needed, that it was the search itself which kept the "game"
                                      going. However, there are no prescriptions which are appropriate for
                                      all. Each apparent entity will be guided to do what it needs to do,
                                      whether that is journaling, meditating, praying, chanting,
                                      psychotherapy ... it's all being taken quite good care of.



                                      this comes by witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self Enquiry
                                      or Neti Neti which then takes over to cut the knots of
                                      illusion...... but this arises in a deep spontaneous manner and not
                                      by self as a limitational practice .....


                                      Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                                      there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
                                      etc.etc...... that is true for the liberated One but not for those
                                      that are still within the mundane mental cognition and drama.........


                                      *****Actually, it is true for all, although all may not realize it as
                                      such. (Reminds me of the old EST aphorism: "The truth believed is a
                                      lie.")


                                      for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                                      right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great
                                      paradox .......


                                      *****Yes. It is a one-sided coin.

                                      ~ andy
                                    • Onniko
                                      ... same ... to ... *v* More perfect :o? which tony is this...from harshaji ... old ... journal, ... very ... with
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "devianandi"
                                        <devi@p...> wrote:
                                        > devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the
                                        same
                                        > activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i want
                                        to
                                        > make myself more perfect...

                                        *v* More perfect :o?

                                        which tony is this...from harshaji
                                        > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind
                                        > enough
                                        > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very
                                        old
                                        > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting
                                        journal,
                                        > and
                                        > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a
                                        very
                                        > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested
                                        > using,
                                        > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                                        > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                                        > >
                                        > > Spiritual Diary
                                        > > Month : ________________
                                        > > Questions
                                        > >
                                        > > Date
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what self-
                                        > punishment ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and
                                        with
                                        > > what self-punishment ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or
                                        > Nirguna
                                        > > Dhyana) ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
                                      • jodyrrr
                                        ... Listen, to each his own, but I guess I m a guy who finds this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we must conform to some ridiculously
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                          > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind enough
                                          > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
                                          > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal, and
                                          > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
                                          > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested using,
                                          > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                                          > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                                          >
                                          > Spiritual Diary
                                          > Month : ________________
                                          > Questions
                                          >
                                          > Date
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what self-punishment ?

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
                                          > what self-punishment ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or Nirguna
                                          > Dhyana) ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > 27. When did you go to bed ?

                                          Listen, to each his own, but I guess I'm a guy who finds
                                          this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we
                                          must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime
                                          in order to come to understanding is a huge, huge
                                          occlusion in spiritual culture.

                                          This kind of Victorian disciplinism is the result of
                                          cultural mistranslation and a complete lack of
                                          historical perspective. I'm not saying it won't be the
                                          thing someone does before they come to understanding,
                                          but its presentation as a paradigm of spiritual practice
                                          is much more at home in a letter written 125 years ago
                                          imo.

                                          --jody.
                                        • medit8ionsociety
                                          ... self-punishment ? ... Dear Jodyji, This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                            "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                            > > Tony recently restarted his Meditation Journaling and was kind enough
                                            > > to share a few samples with us. This tradition is actually very old
                                            > > and wide spread. Benjamin Franklin kept a self-correcting journal, and
                                            > > the great Sri Swami Sivananda pointed to keeping a journal as a very
                                            > > beneficial means of self-inquiry. Here is one form he suggested using,
                                            > > and that he had his disciples all over the world send him for his
                                            > > analysis. Perhaps this may be a helpful tool for you:
                                            > >
                                            > > Spiritual Diary
                                            > > Month : ________________
                                            > > Questions
                                            > >
                                            > > Date
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 1. When did you get up from bed ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 2. How many hours did you sleep ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 3. How many Malas of Japa ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 4. How long in Kirtan ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 5. How many Pranayamas ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 6. How long did you perform Asanas ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 7. How long did you meditate in one Asana?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 8. How many Gita Slokas did you read or get by heart ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 9. How long in the company of the wise (Satsanga) ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 10. How many hours did you observe Mouna ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 11. How long in disinterested selfless service ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 12. How much did you give in charity ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 13. How many Mantras you wrote ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 14. How long did you practice physical exercise ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 15. How many lies did you tell and with what self-punishment ?
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 16. How many times and how long of anger and with what
                                            self-punishment ?
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 17. How many hours you spent in useless company ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 18. How many times you failed in Brahmacharya ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 19. How long in study of religious books ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 20. How many times you failed in the control of evil habits and with
                                            > > what self-punishment ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 21. How long you concentrated on your Ishta Devata (Saguna or Nirguna
                                            > > Dhyana) ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 22. How many days did you observe fast and vigil ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 23. Were you regular in your meditation ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 24. What virtue are you developing ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 25. What evil quality are you trying to eradicate ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 26. What Indriya is troubling you most ?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > 27. When did you go to bed ?
                                            >
                                            > Listen, to each his own, but I guess I'm a guy who finds
                                            > this kind of practice utterly backward. The idea that we
                                            > must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime
                                            > in order to come to understanding is a huge, huge
                                            > occlusion in spiritual culture.
                                            >
                                            > This kind of Victorian disciplinism is the result of
                                            > cultural mistranslation and a complete lack of
                                            > historical perspective. I'm not saying it won't be the
                                            > thing someone does before they come to understanding,
                                            > but its presentation as a paradigm of spiritual practice
                                            > is much more at home in a letter written 125 years ago
                                            > imo.
                                            >
                                            > --jody.

                                            Dear Jodyji,
                                            This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami
                                            Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan chanting, Jhana,
                                            Raja, Bhakti, and Karma Yoga methodologies, and in his 350+ books, you
                                            can see a synthesis of pointings that come down to his (most
                                            "un-authoritarian" and "un-disciplinism" of all types of 'regimes')
                                            summary of his teachings...."Be good. Do good". But for some of his
                                            disciples, like Swami Vishnu-Devananda (founder of the internationally
                                            well known Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers), it proved to be a valuable
                                            tool in their coming to Realization. BTW, I have read more than 80 of
                                            his books, and have never found anywhere anything pointing to "The
                                            idea that we must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime in
                                            order to come to understanding" that you stated. He was one of the
                                            kindest, and most humble gurus I have ever read about or heard stories
                                            about. He always put others before himself, and made a habit of caring
                                            for the poor and sick personally.
                                            I'll just cite one continuing activity of his that demonstrates the
                                            kind of person we are discussing - He would allow his followers to
                                            worship him, if that was what fit the needs of others, but would then
                                            go and wash sick saddhu's feet so as not to get big-headed about all
                                            the veneration. No Rolls Royces, and no just sitting on a mat beeming
                                            blissfully. Not that these things are "bad" either.
                                            Peace and blessings,
                                            Bob
                                          • Swami-G
                                            ... Swami-G ... is one ... transcended ... where the ... in ... awake, ... but ... may ... was ... appropriate for ... do, ... Enquiry ... not ...
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                                              <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                              "Swami-G"
                                              > <manjusrilotus@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi Swami-G ~
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > SG: while one is within duality there is a starting point ....
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****Other than at the moment of death (and thereafter), when
                                              is one
                                              > not within duality?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > not even Sri Ramana was actualized as a child ...... it took an
                                              > event........ a point in duality where the mind was
                                              transcended
                                              > .... the illusion broken ...... until that time one is within
                                              > duality and uses whatever is at hand to come to that point
                                              where the
                                              > duality falls away .....
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****Are you suggesting that post-awakening one is no longer
                                              "in"
                                              > duality, no longer functioning in duality, that for one who is
                                              awake,
                                              > duality no longer exists?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > this advaita view and perception about there are no levels of
                                              > consciousness may only be spoken by one that is beyond the
                                              > levels..... beyond the trap of mind and mental comings and
                                              > goings......... until that time Yes there appears to be
                                              > levels .....
                                              >
                                              > you can go around in denial of it using advaita speak and that
                                              > is what it is simply denial which is not liberating at all.........
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****OK. Denial is not liberating. Then...what is liberating? Is
                                              > liberation an understanding that is caused? If so, by what?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > there comes a point where the duality dissolves into Advaita
                                              but
                                              > that is not as yet the norm for the whole of mankind ....... until
                                              > that time a journal is advantageous as a mooring to see what
                                              > patterns have been occurring thus bringing a point that may be
                                              > contemplated and broken through ......
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****Certainly this may be so...for some. Just as meditation
                                              may
                                              > contribute to the surfacing of the understanding that nothing
                                              was
                                              > ever needed, that it was the search itself which kept the "game"
                                              > going. However, there are no prescriptions which are
                                              appropriate for
                                              > all. Each apparent entity will be guided to do what it needs to
                                              do,
                                              > whether that is journaling, meditating, praying, chanting,
                                              > psychotherapy ... it's all being taken quite good care of.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > this comes by witnessing ....... then by a spontaneous Self
                                              Enquiry
                                              > or Neti Neti which then takes over to cut the knots of
                                              > illusion...... but this arises in a deep spontaneous manner and
                                              not
                                              > by self as a limitational practice .....
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Next there will be the advaita speak of we are already that -----
                                              > there is nothing to do ----- there is nowhere to go ......
                                              > etc.etc...... that is true for the liberated One but not for those
                                              > that are still within the mundane mental cognition and
                                              drama.........
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****Actually, it is true for all, although all may not realize it as
                                              > such. (Reminds me of the old EST aphorism: "The truth
                                              believed is a
                                              > lie.")
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > for them a journey is still in place which ends in it was always
                                              > right here ---- right now ----- ...... it is the great
                                              > paradox .......
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****Yes. It is a one-sided coin.
                                              >
                                              > ~ andy


                                              SG: i am not here to debate, nor am i *suggesting*
                                              anything ...... what has been said has been said as it is .......
                                              enough said .......

                                              if you want more clarity about what was written email me
                                              directly ..... i won't waste the groups time on intellectual clap
                                              trap ......


                                              crystalkundalini@...
                                            • jodyrrr
                                              ... wrote: [snip] ... Hey Bob. I m sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did. I certainly didn t mean it that way. In
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                                [snip]

                                                > Dear Jodyji,
                                                > This journal is only a drop in the ocean of methods that Swami
                                                > Sivananda used in his teaching. He mainly used Kirtan chanting, Jhana,
                                                > Raja, Bhakti, and Karma Yoga methodologies, and in his 350+ books, you
                                                > can see a synthesis of pointings that come down to his (most
                                                > "un-authoritarian" and "un-disciplinism" of all types of 'regimes')
                                                > summary of his teachings...."Be good. Do good". But for some of his
                                                > disciples, like Swami Vishnu-Devananda (founder of the internationally
                                                > well known Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers), it proved to be a valuable
                                                > tool in their coming to Realization. BTW, I have read more than 80 of
                                                > his books, and have never found anywhere anything pointing to "The
                                                > idea that we must conform to some ridiculously authoritarian regime in
                                                > order to come to understanding" that you stated. He was one of the
                                                > kindest, and most humble gurus I have ever read about or heard stories
                                                > about. He always put others before himself, and made a habit of caring
                                                > for the poor and sick personally.
                                                > I'll just cite one continuing activity of his that demonstrates the
                                                > kind of person we are discussing - He would allow his followers to
                                                > worship him, if that was what fit the needs of others, but would then
                                                > go and wash sick saddhu's feet so as not to get big-headed about all
                                                > the veneration. No Rolls Royces, and no just sitting on a mat beeming
                                                > blissfully. Not that these things are "bad" either.
                                                > Peace and blessings,
                                                > Bob

                                                Hey Bob.

                                                I'm sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did.
                                                I certainly didn't mean it that way. In fact, my tradition is much
                                                the same as taught by *my* guru and his preceptors.

                                                I wasn't commenting on the author of the journal, I was attempting
                                                to point out that the content of the journal was way, way outdated,
                                                and that the acceptance of this kind of outdated material is cause
                                                for as much ignorance as it is understanding. That's just my opinion
                                                of course, but I'd have to say that the times, they are a changin',
                                                and have been changing, a lot.

                                                Your guru may have said these things in the 60s or 70s, but he
                                                was reiterating the content of the 1800s. Also, he was Indian,
                                                born and raised in India. His understanding was unlimited, but
                                                his world map was firmly anchored in a whole different milieu.

                                                I mean not a shred of disrespect, but I'm trying to put it in
                                                historical perspective. That seems to be missed so often
                                                in the arena of Indian thought as it resides in the West.

                                                Swami Sivananda is unassailable, I agree. But as a historical
                                                figure from an anthropological perspective, he was a man of
                                                his times and his culture. His being in complete spiritual
                                                understanding does not preclude the fact that some of what
                                                he wrote just doesn't fit with the times anymore, and even
                                                when he wrote it, it was out of a completely different cultural
                                                milieu than the one he was presenting it in.

                                                Again Bobji, I certainly don't mean to question Sivananda's
                                                understanding or your judgement in regarding him as you do.

                                                --jody.
                                              • medit8ionsociety
                                                jodyrrr wrote: snip ... opinion of course, but I d have to say that the times, they are a changin , ... Yo Jodyji, Actually, I never have had
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 5, 2003
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                                                  "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

                                                  snip

                                                  > Hey Bob.

                                                  > I'm sure sorry that you took that as a guru dis, if indeed you did.
                                                  > I certainly didn't mean it that way. In fact, my tradition is much
                                                  > the same as taught by *my* guru and his preceptors.
                                                  >
                                                  > I wasn't commenting on the author of the journal, I was attempting
                                                  > to point out that the content of the journal was way, way outdated,
                                                  > and that the acceptance of this kind of outdated material is cause
                                                  > for as much ignorance as it is understanding. That's just my
                                                  opinion of course, but I'd have to say that the times, they are a
                                                  changin',
                                                  > and have been changing, a lot.
                                                  >
                                                  > Your guru may have said these things in the 60s or 70s, but he
                                                  > was reiterating the content of the 1800s. Also, he was Indian,
                                                  > born and raised in India. His understanding was unlimited, but
                                                  > his world map was firmly anchored in a whole different milieu.

                                                  > I mean not a shred of disrespect, but I'm trying to put it in
                                                  > historical perspective. That seems to be missed so often
                                                  > in the arena of Indian thought as it resides in the West.
                                                  >
                                                  > Swami Sivananda is unassailable, I agree. But as a historical
                                                  > figure from an anthropological perspective, he was a man of
                                                  > his times and his culture. His being in complete spiritual
                                                  > understanding does not preclude the fact that some of what
                                                  > he wrote just doesn't fit with the times anymore, and even
                                                  > when he wrote it, it was out of a completely different cultural
                                                  > milieu than the one he was presenting it in.
                                                  >
                                                  > Again Bobji, I certainly don't mean to question Sivananda's
                                                  > understanding or your judgement in regarding him as you do.
                                                  >
                                                  > --jody.

                                                  Yo Jodyji,
                                                  Actually, I never have had a formal "guru", and the only initiation I
                                                  ever was involved with was with Guru Maharaji's "Knowledge". But
                                                  that's another story for another time. One of the main influences on
                                                  me over the past 35 years though, has been one of Swami Sivananda's
                                                  disciples, Sri Gurudev Swami Satchidananda, and it was from hearing
                                                  his stories about Sivananda that I first had an interest in him. My
                                                  initial reaction to one of his books though, was exactly what yours
                                                  seems to be - IE: "This guy is way too old-fashioned for my tastes" or
                                                  some similar kind of thing. Then about 10 years later, I again opened
                                                  one of his books and "got high" with every sentence. As someone who
                                                  wasted/spent 20 years just seeking methods and techniques to get high,
                                                  and had finally stopped caring about attaining or experiencing "higher
                                                  levels of consciousness", I was somewhat surprised how quickly I
                                                  became addicted to Sivananda's down to earth dissections of the
                                                  heaviest of topics (the Upanishads, Gita, Bible, philosophy,
                                                  psychology, etc.), and how filled with love, contentment, and bliss
                                                  reading and contemplating his words brought to me. At one point I even
                                                  asked Swami Satchidananda if I was being inappropriate in some
                                                  attachment way by gobbling up all the Sivananda readings I could get
                                                  my hands on. He said absolutely not, and that there was no better
                                                  thing I could be doing. So I stopped worrying about it, enjoyed it,
                                                  and eventually this ran its course, and I no longer do much reading
                                                  about anything "spiritual" except for those things that come to me
                                                  related to being the editor of The Inner Traveler and the President of
                                                  the Meditation Society of America. As a matter of fact, there is no
                                                  doubt that I quote St. Homer Simson in our meditation classes much
                                                  more than Sivananda, but for me, he is just as contemporary and
                                                  universal a source of wisdom.
                                                  Peace and blessings,
                                                  Bob
                                                  PS: Thanks for your gentle way of communicating. You're a class act.
                                                • devianandi
                                                  ... same ... want ... hi, i just spent the last two days and 800 dollars on a new computer..i meant to reply to you days ago but didn t get a chance till now.
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                                    > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just thinking of doing the
                                                    same
                                                    > > activity..not because of self-inquiry though..it is becuase i
                                                    want
                                                    > to
                                                    > > make myself more perfect...which tony is this...from harshaji
                                                    > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                                    >
                                                    > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                                    > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                                    > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                                    >
                                                    > curmudgeonly,
                                                    > Nina

                                                    hi, i just spent the last two days and 800 dollars on a new
                                                    computer..i meant to reply to you days ago but didn't get a chance
                                                    till now.

                                                    nina my love and inspiration,

                                                    tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                                    more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?

                                                    do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                                    any room for a more perfect living?

                                                    love
                                                    devi
                                                  • Nina
                                                    ... Hello, Devi, Of course, this may only be my interpretation, but I detected in your first letter the sense of perfecting equating to making better , as
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                                      > > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just
                                                      > > > thinking of doing the same
                                                      > > > activity..not because of self-inquiry
                                                      > > > though..it is becuase i want to
                                                      > > > make myself more perfect...which tony
                                                      > > > is this...from harshaji
                                                      > > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                                      > > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                                      > > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                                      >
                                                      > nina my love and inspiration,
                                                      >
                                                      > tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                                      > more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?
                                                      >
                                                      > do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                                      > any room for a more perfect living?

                                                      Hello, Devi,

                                                      Of course, this may only be my interpretation,
                                                      but I detected in your first letter the sense of
                                                      'perfecting' equating to 'making better', as it
                                                      relates to behaving in a certain way as can be
                                                      inferred from Sivananda's set of journal questions.

                                                      Does the application of those behavioral constraints
                                                      create a more perfect person? No, though it may allow
                                                      one to feel more 'spiritually correct', and provide
                                                      leverage for the battles that are waged on the
                                                      plains of spiritual conquest.

                                                      What if, in the spirit of neti neti, we assumed that
                                                      all the rules for correct spiritual behavior had
                                                      fallen away. What would remain? How would we live our
                                                      lives? What would dictate our quality of being?

                                                      It is awfully easy to assume Sivananda's implied
                                                      behavioral mores via journal questions as the
                                                      'correct way to live', and perfect ourselves to
                                                      his vision (however valid it may be) of perfection,
                                                      while all the time completely ignoring our own
                                                      heart path, which has at its root, a perfection
                                                      which exists apriori to any behavior.

                                                      I would propose, that rather than taking on new
                                                      patterns of behavior, and enforcing them upon
                                                      oneself, that one discover the most perfect patterns
                                                      of behavior within, and allow those to move into
                                                      effulgence.

                                                      I guess the next question might be:
                                                      what's perfect?

                                                      Nina
                                                    • Jeff Belyea
                                                      ... Everything (ü) Jeff
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <
                                                        murrkis@y...> wrote:
                                                        > > > > devi: that's awesome! because i was just
                                                        > > > > thinking of doing the same
                                                        > > > > activity..not because of self-inquiry
                                                        > > > > though..it is becuase i want to
                                                        > > > > make myself more perfect...which tony
                                                        > > > > is this...from harshaji
                                                        > > > > satsang? hmmm..i would add a recording of the nights dreams...
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Yep, just as I suspected, it is a tool
                                                        > > > to make oneself more perfect, not
                                                        > > > a tool make oneself more one with oneself...
                                                        > >
                                                        > > nina my love and inspiration,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > tell me, whats the difference that you see between making oneself
                                                        > > more perfect and making onseself more one with oneself?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > do you think that if you are one with yourself that you don't have
                                                        > > any room for a more perfect living?
                                                        >
                                                        > Hello, Devi,
                                                        >
                                                        > Of course, this may only be my interpretation,
                                                        > but I detected in your first letter the sense of
                                                        > 'perfecting' equating to 'making better', as it
                                                        > relates to behaving in a certain way as can be
                                                        > inferred from Sivananda's set of journal questions.
                                                        >
                                                        > Does the application of those behavioral constraints
                                                        > create a more perfect person? No, though it may allow
                                                        > one to feel more 'spiritually correct', and provide
                                                        > leverage for the battles that are waged on the
                                                        > plains of spiritual conquest.
                                                        >
                                                        > What if, in the spirit of neti neti, we assumed that
                                                        > all the rules for correct spiritual behavior had
                                                        > fallen away. What would remain? How would we live our
                                                        > lives? What would dictate our quality of being?
                                                        >
                                                        > It is awfully easy to assume Sivananda's implied
                                                        > behavioral mores via journal questions as the
                                                        > 'correct way to live', and perfect ourselves to
                                                        > his vision (however valid it may be) of perfection,
                                                        > while all the time completely ignoring our own
                                                        > heart path, which has at its root, a perfection
                                                        > which exists apriori to any behavior.
                                                        >
                                                        > I would propose, that rather than taking on new
                                                        > patterns of behavior, and enforcing them upon
                                                        > oneself, that one discover the most perfect patterns
                                                        > of behavior within, and allow those to move into
                                                        > effulgence.
                                                        >
                                                        > I guess the next question might be:
                                                        > what's perfect?
                                                        >
                                                        > Nina

                                                        Everything (ü)

                                                        Jeff
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