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Re: the truth

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  • carolina112900
    ... Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no desire to change anyone or find flaws in what they are saying, there is less desire to tell them
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
      wrote:
      > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
      > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
      > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
      > >
      > > --jody.>>
      > >
      > >
      > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
      > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
      > > than anything Charles has said.
      > >
      > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
      > > to........the truth.
      > >
      > > love,
      > >
      > > Freyja
      >
      > Hey Freyja.
      >
      > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
      > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
      > they've decided to believe about the truth.
      >
      > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
      > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
      > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
      > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
      > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
      >

      Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
      desire to change anyone or find flaws in
      what they are saying, there is less desire
      to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
      allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


      > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
      > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
      > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
      >
      > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
      > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
      > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
      >

      Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
      than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
      in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
      I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
      When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
      and if we are moved to witness neutrally
      what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
      bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


      > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
      > go round, is it not?
      >

      If you say so, jodyji!

      freyja
      > --jody.
    • jodyrrr
      ... Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody there is a burning desire to note and describe the various occluding aspects of spiritual
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
        <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
        > wrote:
        > > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
        > > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
        > > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
        > > >
        > > > --jody.>>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
        > > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
        > > > than anything Charles has said.
        > > >
        > > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
        > > > to........the truth.
        > > >
        > > > love,
        > > >
        > > > Freyja
        > >
        > > Hey Freyja.
        > >
        > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
        > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
        > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
        > >
        > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
        > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
        > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
        > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
        > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
        > >
        >
        > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
        > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
        > what they are saying, there is less desire
        > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
        > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.

        Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody
        there is a burning desire to note and describe the various
        occluding aspects of spiritual ideology that Jody himself
        came up against during his search. Hence my back
        and forth over the same issues over and over. ;)

        > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
        > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
        > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
        > >
        > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
        > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
        > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
        > >
        >
        > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
        > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
        > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
        > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
        > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
        > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
        > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
        > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.

        Exactly. It is somewhat competitive, at least on my part,
        as my personality structure is somewhat competitive anyway.

        However, I have come to value and appreciate those times
        when I feel I've been one-upped much, much more than
        those times I believe I hold the higher ground.

        That is, I'm usually looking for a butt-kicking, and when
        I get one I'm usually much better off because of it.

        > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
        > > go round, is it not?
        > >
        >
        > If you say so, jodyji!
        >
        > freyja
        > > --jody.

        Uhhhh... at least for me at any rate.

        --jody.
      • Andy
        ... *****Perhaps the telling about it is simply a variant of the interaction of life , another way it expresses itself? ... *****Not on this end. All that
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
          <freyjartist@a...> wrote:


          > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
          > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
          > what they are saying, there is less desire
          > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
          > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


          *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
          the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?


          > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
          > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
          > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
          > >
          > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
          > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
          > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.


          > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
          > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
          > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.


          *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out, where
          such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.


          > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
          > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
          > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
          > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
          > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


          *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to our
          self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
          communion.
        • carolina112900
          ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? I was speaking for myself. I said, I have noticed, *for myself* ... where
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
            <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
            > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
            > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
            > > what they are saying, there is less desire
            > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
            > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
            >
            >
            > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
            > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
            >


            Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
            that is what it is?

            I was speaking for myself. I said,
            I have noticed, *for myself*


            >
            > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
            > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
            > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
            > > >
            > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
            > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
            > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
            >
            >
            > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
            > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
            > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
            >
            >
            > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
            where
            > such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
            >


            When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
            like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.


            >
            > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
            > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
            > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
            > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
            > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
            >
            >
            > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to
            our
            > self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
            > communion.


            Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
            there is awareness of it or not.
          • jodyrrr
            ... wrote: [snip] ... That s one for the wall. :)
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
              <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

              [snip]

              > Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
              > there is awareness of it or not.

              That's one for the wall. :)
            • Andy
              ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? No, no doubts. Just noticing an inclusion. ... When you say all that
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                > --- In
                meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                > > what they are saying, there is less desire
                > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
                >
                >
                > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
                > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
                >


                Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
                that is what it is?

                No, no doubts.  Just noticing an inclusion.


                > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                > > >
                > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                >
                >
                > > Somehow the
                discussion seems a bit different
                > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                >
                >
                > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                >


                When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.

                To me, it is less desirable.
                 
                In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation, something in which I find no pleasure.
                 
                There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration, inquiry and not for notional debates.  Just as there is a disposition here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).

                Just the current programming in Andy.


                > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
                >
                >
                > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking
                > to our self. There is no sense of separation at such moments.
                > Only communion.


                Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                there is awareness of it or not.


                Yes!  Good point.


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              • carolina112900
                ... meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, carolina112900 ... something in which I find no pleasure. ... ......To me, challenge mostly suggests
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Andy
                  <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                  > <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In
                  meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  > > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  > >

                  > > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                  > > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                  > > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                  > > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                  > like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.
                  >
                  >
                  > To me, it is less desirable.
                  >
                  > In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation,
                  something in which I find no pleasure.
                  >

                  ......To me, 'challenge' mostly suggests 'stimulating situation'--
                  perhaps including an atmosphere where I might be asked
                  to explain, support, give evidence of or justify
                  something.


                  > There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration,
                  inquiry and not for notional debates. Just as there is a disposition
                  here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).
                  >
                  > Just the current programming in Andy.
                  >
                  >


                  OK


                  >
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