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Re: the truth

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  • alienprobemaster
    The way that I think leads to truth is experience and trust , I actually stoped the way of believing, all it got me in is trouble. Let us put it this way,
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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      The way that I think leads to truth is "experience" and "trust", I
      actually stoped the way of believing, all it got me in is trouble.
      Let us put it this way, which one is the most powerfull, Believing in
      God or Trusting God. The thing about trusting something is you must
      rathel around with that current something to gain experience. Lets
      take your Mother for instance. Do you believe or trust your mother,
      heck you trust her (Not that everybody had a wonderfull mother
      experience), although it is not a perfect trust, why ? Because you
      ratheled with her on your life path, you loved her, you hated her,
      you made friends with her, you made enemies with her, you shared with
      her, and you struggeled with her to see what she is capable of and
      her manner of handeling things, to see wat is perfect and not
      perfect, and to see if you must or must not trust all info you can
      gather from and about her, this is because of your experiences with
      her. This is the way to be able to trust something, including Jesus
      Crist or God. I for instance trust thinking, because I dont have any
      other choice in that matter without it you will be nothing, but who
      is to say there is not something other that helps you beyond thinking.

      Take Andy and Judy, they are not only sharing, contrasting, and
      comparing their stories, they are also ratheling each other,
      experiencing each other, to see what parts to Trust (or believe as
      most people stil do) from each other.

      Uhhh now one other thing that I find from some pll is that they don't
      have Open Trust, or they bend trust like hell. In other words they
      dont want to share anything at all. Like this other female friend I
      have (Actually I forced her in a way to be friends with me),
      according to her mother, she does not want to exist at all. Not in
      any dimention. I mean she just sit month after month after month at
      home, not wanting anything to do with other people or actually life
      (OK, wait a second, I know what you are about to say, you are gonna
      say "but that is her path of life", as a matter of fact I dont trust
      that path of life stuff in everything, in all the infinite
      posibilities of infinite condition of invinite moments of invinite
      styles of intelligence, why does it always have to be path of live).
      But anywho, at that instance I already knew this girl, because I was
      like that aswell (via experience). First thing I saw is that she
      sometimes walk in circles around abjects and playing music at the
      same time, at this moment I knew she was fantasizing about everthingh
      she is missing in the outside world. So know I knew she has urges
      that wants to come out, but she does not want it to come out(cause
      she does not experience in the living world, only in the mind, which
      is pretty bad). And I also know she is thinking(Meditating) which is
      being tramendously inhanced by her urges. Now I can beging cracking
      that border she setted up. Here is the thing that I did to gain major
      access to her attention :

      H = Her M = Me
      M:So wazzup, got anything new to tell me. H:No, not much, mesa dont
      feel good today. M:Ooo realy, so I noticed, you wanna go somewhere in
      town today. H:Nha, I'm not interested in going out. M:Ooooo really,
      but your interested in sex are'nt you. H:What ?!? (She got agetated
      almost instantly), no I am not !!!!. M: Ooooo yes you are. H: Then
      prove it!!! M: OK please climb of your PC then. H: Why ?! M: Because
      I wanna prove it. H: How about NO! M: Oooo i thought you are the one
      not avraid of anything, avraid i might find something.

      Eventually she climbed of her PC, this was the first stage, her
      adrinalin pomping faster then the speed of light, while I seach
      for .mpg ang other file formats. And I hit gold that day, almost 60
      Gigabyte worth of Porn. From that moment I discovered it, her
      emotions burts open like flames, and I knew how it felt like for her.
      Instantly, discontent (not fear, i asked her about that) turned into
      somthing she wanted, she sat on my lap and huged me tight, crying
      over my sholder. And then she asked me: H: Can we go out today M:How
      so, I thought that you where not interested H:It is because you are
      the only one I can trust now.

      Now the reason I am telling you this story above, is to show you how
      I trusted my experience. And the other thing is, believe could not
      reason with her, it was a mere wisper to her. Trust eventually got
      through to the trugth inside of her. Trust is much more powerfull
      than believe, cause you dont need to believe to do it. Don't take my
      word for it, take her's, she is my girlfriend today.

      Mmm, I hope I did not foreget anything, just incase, there is also
      much more to read at this website over here:
      http://www.barnett.sk/software/sos/osho/osho-talks/art03.htm

      State of Mind Now: The path of live can not be driven without trust.

      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Eglaelin"
      <eglaelin@y...>
      wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
      > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > > Hey Freyja.
      > >
      > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
      > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
      > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
      > >
      > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
      > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
      > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
      > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
      > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
      > >
      > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
      > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
      > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
      > >
      > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
      > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
      > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
      > >
      > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
      > > go round, is it not?
      > >
      > > --jody.
      >
      > This is the "truth" of the matter. I think this sums up the entire
      > process most succintly. Each of us has our own place within the
      space-
      > time continuum and can only relate to others from our own point of
      > view.

      As long as we are able to see that our own point of view, and in fact
      all points of view are illusory from the regard of who we all
      actually are,
      we should remain good to go.
    • carolina112900
      ... Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no desire to change anyone or find flaws in what they are saying, there is less desire to tell them
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
        wrote:
        > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
        > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
        > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
        > >
        > > --jody.>>
        > >
        > >
        > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
        > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
        > > than anything Charles has said.
        > >
        > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
        > > to........the truth.
        > >
        > > love,
        > >
        > > Freyja
        >
        > Hey Freyja.
        >
        > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
        > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
        > they've decided to believe about the truth.
        >
        > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
        > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
        > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
        > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
        > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
        >

        Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
        desire to change anyone or find flaws in
        what they are saying, there is less desire
        to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
        allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


        > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
        > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
        > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
        >
        > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
        > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
        > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
        >

        Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
        than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
        in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
        I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
        When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
        and if we are moved to witness neutrally
        what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
        bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


        > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
        > go round, is it not?
        >

        If you say so, jodyji!

        freyja
        > --jody.
      • jodyrrr
        ... Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody there is a burning desire to note and describe the various occluding aspects of spiritual
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
          <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
          > wrote:
          > > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
          > > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
          > > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
          > > >
          > > > --jody.>>
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
          > > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
          > > > than anything Charles has said.
          > > >
          > > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
          > > > to........the truth.
          > > >
          > > > love,
          > > >
          > > > Freyja
          > >
          > > Hey Freyja.
          > >
          > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
          > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
          > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
          > >
          > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
          > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
          > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
          > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
          > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
          > >
          >
          > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
          > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
          > what they are saying, there is less desire
          > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
          > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.

          Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody
          there is a burning desire to note and describe the various
          occluding aspects of spiritual ideology that Jody himself
          came up against during his search. Hence my back
          and forth over the same issues over and over. ;)

          > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
          > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
          > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
          > >
          > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
          > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
          > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
          > >
          >
          > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
          > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
          > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
          > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
          > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
          > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
          > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
          > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.

          Exactly. It is somewhat competitive, at least on my part,
          as my personality structure is somewhat competitive anyway.

          However, I have come to value and appreciate those times
          when I feel I've been one-upped much, much more than
          those times I believe I hold the higher ground.

          That is, I'm usually looking for a butt-kicking, and when
          I get one I'm usually much better off because of it.

          > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
          > > go round, is it not?
          > >
          >
          > If you say so, jodyji!
          >
          > freyja
          > > --jody.

          Uhhhh... at least for me at any rate.

          --jody.
        • Andy
          ... *****Perhaps the telling about it is simply a variant of the interaction of life , another way it expresses itself? ... *****Not on this end. All that
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
            <freyjartist@a...> wrote:


            > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
            > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
            > what they are saying, there is less desire
            > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
            > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


            *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
            the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?


            > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
            > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
            > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
            > >
            > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
            > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
            > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.


            > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
            > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
            > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.


            *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out, where
            such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.


            > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
            > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
            > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
            > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
            > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


            *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to our
            self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
            communion.
          • carolina112900
            ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? I was speaking for myself. I said, I have noticed, *for myself* ... where
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
              <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
              > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
              > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
              > > what they are saying, there is less desire
              > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
              > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
              >
              >
              > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
              > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
              >


              Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
              that is what it is?

              I was speaking for myself. I said,
              I have noticed, *for myself*


              >
              > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
              > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
              > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
              > > >
              > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
              > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
              > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
              >
              >
              > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
              > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
              > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
              >
              >
              > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
              where
              > such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
              >


              When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
              like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.


              >
              > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
              > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
              > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
              > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
              > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
              >
              >
              > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to
              our
              > self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
              > communion.


              Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
              there is awareness of it or not.
            • jodyrrr
              ... wrote: [snip] ... That s one for the wall. :)
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

                [snip]

                > Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                > there is awareness of it or not.

                That's one for the wall. :)
              • Andy
                ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? No, no doubts. Just noticing an inclusion. ... When you say all that
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                  <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In
                  meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                  > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                  > > what they are saying, there is less desire
                  > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                  > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
                  >
                  >
                  > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
                  > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
                  >


                  Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
                  that is what it is?

                  No, no doubts.  Just noticing an inclusion.


                  > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                  > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                  > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                  > > >
                  > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                  > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                  > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                  >
                  >
                  > > Somehow the
                  discussion seems a bit different
                  > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                  > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                  >
                  >
                  > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                  > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                  >


                  When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                  like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.

                  To me, it is less desirable.
                   
                  In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation, something in which I find no pleasure.
                   
                  There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration, inquiry and not for notional debates.  Just as there is a disposition here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).

                  Just the current programming in Andy.


                  > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                  > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                  > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                  > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                  > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
                  >
                  >
                  > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking
                  > to our self. There is no sense of separation at such moments.
                  > Only communion.


                  Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                  there is awareness of it or not.


                  Yes!  Good point.


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                • carolina112900
                  ... meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, carolina112900 ... something in which I find no pleasure. ... ......To me, challenge mostly suggests
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Andy
                    <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                    > <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                    > > --- In
                    meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                    > > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                    > >

                    > > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                    > > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                    > > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                    > > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                    > like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.
                    >
                    >
                    > To me, it is less desirable.
                    >
                    > In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation,
                    something in which I find no pleasure.
                    >

                    ......To me, 'challenge' mostly suggests 'stimulating situation'--
                    perhaps including an atmosphere where I might be asked
                    to explain, support, give evidence of or justify
                    something.


                    > There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration,
                    inquiry and not for notional debates. Just as there is a disposition
                    here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).
                    >
                    > Just the current programming in Andy.
                    >
                    >


                    OK


                    >
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