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the truth

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  • freyjartist@aol.com
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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      <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
      the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
      serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.

      --jody.>>


      After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
      I cannot see how this statement here is different
      than anything Charles has said.

      Everybody thinks they know what leads
      to........the truth.

      love,

      Freyja



    • jodyrrr
      ... Hey Freyja. I d say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth *based* on what they ve come to know of the truth, or what they ve decided to
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a... wrote:
        > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
        > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
        > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
        >
        > --jody.>>
        >
        >
        > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
        > I cannot see how this statement here is different
        > than anything Charles has said.
        >
        > Everybody thinks they know what leads
        > to........the truth.
        >
        > love,
        >
        > Freyja

        Hey Freyja.

        I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
        *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
        they've decided to believe about the truth.

        That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
        truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
        understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
        to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
        telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)

        Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
        their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
        differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.

        As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
        to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
        fact, they're just two ways held by two people.

        And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
        go round, is it not?

        --jody.
      • Eglaelin
        ... This is the truth of the matter. I think this sums up the entire process most succintly. Each of us has our own place within the space- time continuum
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > Hey Freyja.
          >
          > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
          > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
          > they've decided to believe about the truth.
          >
          > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
          > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
          > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
          > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
          > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
          >
          > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
          > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
          > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
          >
          > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
          > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
          > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
          >
          > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
          > go round, is it not?
          >
          > --jody.

          This is the "truth" of the matter. I think this sums up the entire
          process most succintly. Each of us has our own place within the space-
          time continuum and can only relate to others from our own point of
          view.
          In the end, I think, what matters most is the exchange of ideas and
          visions. That is the wonderful part of the philosophy of I.D.I.C.
          (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination). Each person in this
          discussion holds a point of view that may be of benefit to the other.
          It is not necessary to change the minds of those we meet. When we
          embrace the diversity of each communicant within the discussion it
          enables us to converse without discrimination.
          However, this is just my point of view within the dialogue
          I, for one, come from a thinking process that is related to the
          Stoics of Ancient Greece.

          Peace On Your Path,
          Eglaelin

          They (Hellenic Philosphers) saw the philosopher as a compassionate
          physician whose arts could heal many pervasive types of human
          suffering. They practiced philosophy not as a detached intellectual
          technique dedicated to the display of cleverness but as an immersed
          and worldly art of grappling with human misery.
        • jodyrrr
          ... As long as we are able to see that our own point of view, and in fact all points of view are illusory from the regard of who we all actually are, we should
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Eglaelin" <eglaelin@y...>
            wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > > Hey Freyja.
            > >
            > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
            > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
            > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
            > >
            > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
            > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
            > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
            > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
            > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
            > >
            > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
            > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
            > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
            > >
            > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
            > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
            > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
            > >
            > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
            > > go round, is it not?
            > >
            > > --jody.
            >
            > This is the "truth" of the matter. I think this sums up the entire
            > process most succintly. Each of us has our own place within the space-
            > time continuum and can only relate to others from our own point of
            > view.

            As long as we are able to see that our own point of view, and in fact
            all points of view are illusory from the regard of who we all actually are,
            we should remain good to go.

            [snip]
          • alienprobemaster
            The way that I think leads to truth is experience and trust , I actually stoped the way of believing, all it got me in is trouble. Let us put it this way,
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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              The way that I think leads to truth is "experience" and "trust", I
              actually stoped the way of believing, all it got me in is trouble.
              Let us put it this way, which one is the most powerfull, Believing in
              God or Trusting God. The thing about trusting something is you must
              rathel around with that current something to gain experience. Lets
              take your Mother for instance. Do you believe or trust your mother,
              heck you trust her (Not that everybody had a wonderfull mother
              experience), although it is not a perfect trust, why ? Because you
              ratheled with her on your life path, you loved her, you hated her,
              you made friends with her, you made enemies with her, you shared with
              her, and you struggeled with her to see what she is capable of and
              her manner of handeling things, to see wat is perfect and not
              perfect, and to see if you must or must not trust all info you can
              gather from and about her, this is because of your experiences with
              her. This is the way to be able to trust something, including Jesus
              Crist or God. I for instance trust thinking, because I dont have any
              other choice in that matter without it you will be nothing, but who
              is to say there is not something other that helps you beyond thinking.

              Take Andy and Judy, they are not only sharing, contrasting, and
              comparing their stories, they are also ratheling each other,
              experiencing each other, to see what parts to Trust (or believe as
              most people stil do) from each other.

              Uhhh now one other thing that I find from some pll is that they don't
              have Open Trust, or they bend trust like hell. In other words they
              dont want to share anything at all. Like this other female friend I
              have (Actually I forced her in a way to be friends with me),
              according to her mother, she does not want to exist at all. Not in
              any dimention. I mean she just sit month after month after month at
              home, not wanting anything to do with other people or actually life
              (OK, wait a second, I know what you are about to say, you are gonna
              say "but that is her path of life", as a matter of fact I dont trust
              that path of life stuff in everything, in all the infinite
              posibilities of infinite condition of invinite moments of invinite
              styles of intelligence, why does it always have to be path of live).
              But anywho, at that instance I already knew this girl, because I was
              like that aswell (via experience). First thing I saw is that she
              sometimes walk in circles around abjects and playing music at the
              same time, at this moment I knew she was fantasizing about everthingh
              she is missing in the outside world. So know I knew she has urges
              that wants to come out, but she does not want it to come out(cause
              she does not experience in the living world, only in the mind, which
              is pretty bad). And I also know she is thinking(Meditating) which is
              being tramendously inhanced by her urges. Now I can beging cracking
              that border she setted up. Here is the thing that I did to gain major
              access to her attention :

              H = Her M = Me
              M:So wazzup, got anything new to tell me. H:No, not much, mesa dont
              feel good today. M:Ooo realy, so I noticed, you wanna go somewhere in
              town today. H:Nha, I'm not interested in going out. M:Ooooo really,
              but your interested in sex are'nt you. H:What ?!? (She got agetated
              almost instantly), no I am not !!!!. M: Ooooo yes you are. H: Then
              prove it!!! M: OK please climb of your PC then. H: Why ?! M: Because
              I wanna prove it. H: How about NO! M: Oooo i thought you are the one
              not avraid of anything, avraid i might find something.

              Eventually she climbed of her PC, this was the first stage, her
              adrinalin pomping faster then the speed of light, while I seach
              for .mpg ang other file formats. And I hit gold that day, almost 60
              Gigabyte worth of Porn. From that moment I discovered it, her
              emotions burts open like flames, and I knew how it felt like for her.
              Instantly, discontent (not fear, i asked her about that) turned into
              somthing she wanted, she sat on my lap and huged me tight, crying
              over my sholder. And then she asked me: H: Can we go out today M:How
              so, I thought that you where not interested H:It is because you are
              the only one I can trust now.

              Now the reason I am telling you this story above, is to show you how
              I trusted my experience. And the other thing is, believe could not
              reason with her, it was a mere wisper to her. Trust eventually got
              through to the trugth inside of her. Trust is much more powerfull
              than believe, cause you dont need to believe to do it. Don't take my
              word for it, take her's, she is my girlfriend today.

              Mmm, I hope I did not foreget anything, just incase, there is also
              much more to read at this website over here:
              http://www.barnett.sk/software/sos/osho/osho-talks/art03.htm

              State of Mind Now: The path of live can not be driven without trust.

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Eglaelin"
              <eglaelin@y...>
              wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > > Hey Freyja.
              > >
              > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
              > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
              > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
              > >
              > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
              > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
              > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
              > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
              > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
              > >
              > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
              > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
              > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
              > >
              > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
              > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
              > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
              > >
              > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
              > > go round, is it not?
              > >
              > > --jody.
              >
              > This is the "truth" of the matter. I think this sums up the entire
              > process most succintly. Each of us has our own place within the
              space-
              > time continuum and can only relate to others from our own point of
              > view.

              As long as we are able to see that our own point of view, and in fact
              all points of view are illusory from the regard of who we all
              actually are,
              we should remain good to go.
            • carolina112900
              ... Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no desire to change anyone or find flaws in what they are saying, there is less desire to tell them
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                wrote:
                > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
                > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
                > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
                > >
                > > --jody.>>
                > >
                > >
                > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
                > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
                > > than anything Charles has said.
                > >
                > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
                > > to........the truth.
                > >
                > > love,
                > >
                > > Freyja
                >
                > Hey Freyja.
                >
                > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
                > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
                > they've decided to believe about the truth.
                >
                > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
                > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
                > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
                > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
                > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
                >

                Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                what they are saying, there is less desire
                to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


                > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                >
                > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                >

                Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


                > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
                > go round, is it not?
                >

                If you say so, jodyji!

                freyja
                > --jody.
              • jodyrrr
                ... Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody there is a burning desire to note and describe the various occluding aspects of spiritual
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                  > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                  > wrote:
                  > > > <<To me, there is something utterly tragic in this, and most all
                  > > > the other aspects of spiritual culture, a great deal of which
                  > > > serves to occlude the truth rather than reveal it in my opinion.
                  > > >
                  > > > --jody.>>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > After reading the dialogues you had with Charles,
                  > > > I cannot see how this statement here is different
                  > > > than anything Charles has said.
                  > > >
                  > > > Everybody thinks they know what leads
                  > > > to........the truth.
                  > > >
                  > > > love,
                  > > >
                  > > > Freyja
                  > >
                  > > Hey Freyja.
                  > >
                  > > I'd say that everyone thinks they know what leads to truth
                  > > *based* on what they've come to know of the truth, or what
                  > > they've decided to believe about the truth.
                  > >
                  > > That is, each unique 'path' to the truth *becomes* their
                  > > truth, and they attempt to offer the benefits of their
                  > > understanding to others. Whether or not it is of benefit
                  > > to anyone is questionable, but that doesn't stop 'em from
                  > > telling us about it, does it? I know it won't stop me. ;)
                  > >
                  >
                  > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                  > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                  > what they are saying, there is less desire
                  > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                  > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.

                  Understood. However, in the province of this person Jody
                  there is a burning desire to note and describe the various
                  occluding aspects of spiritual ideology that Jody himself
                  came up against during his search. Hence my back
                  and forth over the same issues over and over. ;)

                  > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                  > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                  > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                  > >
                  > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                  > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                  > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                  > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                  > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                  > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                  > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                  > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                  > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                  > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.

                  Exactly. It is somewhat competitive, at least on my part,
                  as my personality structure is somewhat competitive anyway.

                  However, I have come to value and appreciate those times
                  when I feel I've been one-upped much, much more than
                  those times I believe I hold the higher ground.

                  That is, I'm usually looking for a butt-kicking, and when
                  I get one I'm usually much better off because of it.

                  > > And this is what makes the meditationsocietyofamerica
                  > > go round, is it not?
                  > >
                  >
                  > If you say so, jodyji!
                  >
                  > freyja
                  > > --jody.

                  Uhhhh... at least for me at any rate.

                  --jody.
                • Andy
                  ... *****Perhaps the telling about it is simply a variant of the interaction of life , another way it expresses itself? ... *****Not on this end. All that
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                    <freyjartist@a...> wrote:


                    > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                    > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                    > what they are saying, there is less desire
                    > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                    > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.


                    *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
                    the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?


                    > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                    > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                    > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                    > >
                    > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                    > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                    > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.


                    > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                    > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                    > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.


                    *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out, where
                    such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.


                    > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                    > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                    > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                    > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                    > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.


                    *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to our
                    self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
                    communion.
                  • carolina112900
                    ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? I was speaking for myself. I said, I have noticed, *for myself* ... where
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                      <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                      > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                      > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                      > > what they are saying, there is less desire
                      > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                      > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
                      >
                      >
                      > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
                      > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
                      >


                      Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
                      that is what it is?

                      I was speaking for myself. I said,
                      I have noticed, *for myself*


                      >
                      > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                      > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                      > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                      > > >
                      > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                      > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                      > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                      >
                      >
                      > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                      > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                      > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                      >
                      >
                      > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                      where
                      > such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                      >


                      When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                      like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.


                      >
                      > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                      > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                      > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                      > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                      > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
                      >
                      >
                      > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking to
                      our
                      > self. There is no sense of separation at such moments. Only
                      > communion.


                      Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                      there is awareness of it or not.
                    • jodyrrr
                      ... wrote: [snip] ... That s one for the wall. :)
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 30, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                        <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

                        [snip]

                        > Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                        > there is awareness of it or not.

                        That's one for the wall. :)
                      • Andy
                        ... Are you asking that question because you have doubts that that is what it is? No, no doubts. Just noticing an inclusion. ... When you say all that
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                          <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In
                          meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                          > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > Well, I have noticed for myself that when there is no
                          > > desire to change anyone or find flaws in
                          > > what they are saying, there is less desire
                          > > to tell them 'about' it, but rather more leaning to
                          > > allowing the interactions of life to speak for themselves.
                          >
                          >
                          > *****Perhaps the "telling about it" is simply a variant of
                          > the "interaction of life", another way it expresses itself?
                          >


                          Are you asking that question because you have doubts that
                          that is what it is?

                          No, no doubts.  Just noticing an inclusion.


                          > > > Andy and Jody are sharing, contrasting, and comparing
                          > > > their stories right now. Seeing as they've decided to hold
                          > > > differing POVs, there's a lot of contrast being noted.
                          > > >
                          > > > As a result, a discussion ensues, as each of us appears
                          > > > to be trying to get the other to see it our way, when in
                          > > > fact, they're just two ways held by two people.
                          >
                          >
                          > > Somehow the
                          discussion seems a bit different
                          > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                          > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                          >
                          >
                          > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                          > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                          >


                          When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                          like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.

                          To me, it is less desirable.
                           
                          In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation, something in which I find no pleasure.
                           
                          There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration, inquiry and not for notional debates.  Just as there is a disposition here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).

                          Just the current programming in Andy.


                          > > I am not saying this is a 'bad' thing.
                          > > When we dialogue, we bounce things off each other
                          > > and if we are moved to witness neutrally
                          > > what still has the potential to stick, what stings, what
                          > > bruises...all opportunities to deepen inquiry.
                          >
                          >
                          > *****True dialogue reduces to a monologue. We end up speaking
                          > to our self. There is no sense of separation at such moments.
                          > Only communion.


                          Dialogue is always really monologue, whether
                          there is awareness of it or not.


                          Yes!  Good point.


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                        • carolina112900
                          ... meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, carolina112900 ... something in which I find no pleasure. ... ......To me, challenge mostly suggests
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 1, 2003
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Andy
                            <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
                            > <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
                            > > --- In
                            meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                            > > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                            > >

                            > > > Somehow the discussion seems a bit different
                            > > > than simply 'comparing notes' or sharing recipes,
                            > > > in that there seems to be some challenging going on.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > *****Not on this end. All that happens here is a reaching out,
                            > > where such reaching is wished desired. Otherwise...silence.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > When you say "all that happens here...." it sounds
                            > like "challenging" is somehow less desirable.
                            >
                            >
                            > To me, it is less desirable.
                            >
                            > In my lexicon, "challenge" includes an suggestion of confrontation,
                            something in which I find no pleasure.
                            >

                            ......To me, 'challenge' mostly suggests 'stimulating situation'--
                            perhaps including an atmosphere where I might be asked
                            to explain, support, give evidence of or justify
                            something.


                            > There is a preference here for shared examination, exploration,
                            inquiry and not for notional debates. Just as there is a disposition
                            here for tolerance (as opposed to intolerance).
                            >
                            > Just the current programming in Andy.
                            >
                            >


                            OK


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