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[Meditation Society of America] Re: Dealing With Life Meditations/Eglaelin

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  • Swami-G
    ... Eglaelin ... saying that ... of ... similar ... drop ... said ... be ... questioning, ... scary, ... that ... there ... someone ... cross the ... from.
    Message 1 of 123 , Nov 30, 2003
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Andy"
      <endofthedream@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > <eglaelin@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Eglaelin ~
      > Behind most of your statements are assumptions. I'm not
      saying that
      > they are correct or incorrect. But, you may find some measure
      > freedom if you discover that what you take for "facts" are
      > assumptions on your part.
      > Let's put it on the personal level, OK. I have walked a path
      > to the one that you are apparently on at this moment. (Let's
      > all the hoopla about 'path,' 'no path' for the moment; as you
      > later on in the post, you're not interested in metaphysics; that's
      > not why you came here; perhaps, someday such babblings will
      > pertinent, but not for now).
      > I, personlly found the idea, the thought of examining,
      > challenging my assumptions, beliefs, thoughts, to be rather
      > somewhat threatening...it was as if the entire foundation of all
      > I held True was being threatened, and in that state of feeling,
      > was a deep, very uncomfortable threat which felt like it was
      > amounting to personal annihilation.
      > It wasn't experienced as acutely as the immediate threat of
      > holding a gun to my head, or a car heading towards me as I
      cross the
      > street. THAT would have been easy to run from, turn away
      from. The
      > threat that was experienced was very low-grade, not
      > close to the state of feeling mildly anxious and yet, not knowing
      > exactly what I was anxious about. Just a kind of "tickling"
      > the brain. Very disconcerting and unsettling.
      > And yet persistence came about. Assumption after
      assumption was seen
      > (with the help of others who perserved with me) to be exactly
      > assumptions!
      > Why did the persistence come about? Why was there a
      willingness here
      > to let go of the belief systems which had seemed to keep Andy
      > and secure for 47 years? Who knows! It really isn't important.
      > it happened.
      > So, my gift to you, is to point out where you are making
      > that may be obscuring something that is to be seen. I hope it
      can be
      > felt that this is done with affection and love - with no desire to
      > challenge your personal belief systems (that will either happen
      > within you or not; but I am done challening you).
      > > SD: Incidentally the brain, is an organ,........completely
      > > responsive, as per an innate conditioning-in-the-
      > > moment,.........but cannot produce any response on it's own.
      > > In case, you were thinking of the brain in terms of a
      > > E: On which theory do you base this hypotheses. Only if you
      buy the
      > > blank slate idea does this work. Without the brain there is no
      > > identity. Cut out your brain and show me the resulting identity.
      > *****Assumption. Can you really KNOW that without the brain
      there is
      > no identity? Sure, you've been told that (repeatedly) by medical
      > science. But consider how often medical science has told us
      > thing only to do a 180 degree turnaround later on down the
      road. I
      > am not saying that without the brain there IS an identity. See if
      > you can hear that in my words to you. All I am saying is this: an
      > assumption is being made here. What you assert may be
      correct (no
      > brain = no identity). All I'm saying is that it may not be so.
      > There is a possibility that it is not so.
      > > SD: Why this focus, on the self, on the "me-Egalelin"?
      > > E: Because it is necessary for interacting with the world and
      > others.
      > > SD: Without "me-Egalelin",.............there is no "Egalelin's
      > > world", ........the world of it's loved ones, unloved ones, the
      > > world of issues to be resolved, the world in which the debate
      > > exists as to what is the ethical behaviour in that world and
      how to
      > > enhance that behaviour and how to mitigate that which
      > > such a behaviour, etc.
      > > E: So tell me what is your technique for dealing with the
      > *****Assumption. Perhaps there is no technique needed for
      > with the world. Maybe "dealing" just happens, regardless of
      > techniques? (Scary, isn't it? to think that the world, and all its
      > dealings, might go on, just fine, without "your" input. I certainly
      > found it to be scary, initially; I felt like "I" - Andy - was being
      > devalued in that understanding.)
      > > Do you simply ignore the suffering around you while being
      > > in you own world of illusion? The negation of Eglaelin's
      vision of
      > > the world does not negate the world.
      > *****Notice how some people ignore the suffering around
      them, and how
      > some respond to it. If you are so moved to respond, wonderful!
      > so! But see the assumptions behind the thoughts which arise
      > regarding those who do not feel so compelled to help the
      > What are those assumptions, and, can you really know if the
      > assumptions are entirely, 100% true, or are they simply the
      > that you hold to be true. Again: very threatening, as I personally
      > found! If my story about Andy was not valid, was not true, then
      > was Andy, and how would he function?? (Scared shitless
      actually when
      > faced with this!)
      > > SD: The entire hoopla of "Egalelin's world, which ceases
      when the
      > > sense of "Egalelin" ceases. An occurrence which happens
      > > night. In the state of what is referred to as the state of deep
      > > sleep, when even dreaming ceases.
      > > E: Just because I am not aware of the world does not mean
      the world
      > > does not exist. BTW cognitive psychology has proven that the
      > > never sleeps. No matter if my higher functions are
      suppressed the
      > > meat is still aware of the world around it.
      > *****Assumption. I'm not saying that lack of awareness of the
      > means that the world does not exist. But...perhaps the world
      > exist while you sleep, right? I mean, when you are in deep
      > regardless of whatever brain functions are persisting, "you"
      > are not aware of what is happening "in the world" at that
      moment. So
      > how can you be 100% sure that it continues to exist whilst you
      > Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. All I am inviting you to do is to
      > SEE that there is an assumption being made here. It is a very
      > assumption, shared by several billion people world-wide. And
      one can
      > accumulate a LOT of evidence to support that assumption, to
      > that it is NOT an assumption, but that it is Fact, it is "the way
      > things are." I am offering you another perspective: understand
      > statement to be an assumption. That is all.
      > > SD: There is no static "person" contemplating the issues of
      his or
      > > her life, checking out alternative methodologies, for
      > > in relation to a self conceived tenets of ethics.
      > > E: It does not matter if there is no static person. However,
      > > according to Andy there is.
      > *****Please. Show me where I ever said that. I believe all that I
      > wrote was: there is change, always. If there is constant
      > there is, therefore, no static person. A "person" is a collection
      > conditionings, and these change moment-to-moment via input
      > the six senses. Thus, no static person.
      > > SD: There is a "personing",.....billions and billion
      > > of "personings".............as nuances of that one movement in
      > > moment.
      > > However, all this to you may be pure baloney,.................so
      > > let's leave all this aside.
      > > E: You got me there. I believe that such round-about thinking
      > > nothing more than a retreat life. Someone can sit there
      > > contemplating the non-reality of life and self while the world
      > > to hell.
      > *****Assumption. Is the world going to hell? Can one know
      that with
      > complete certainty, or is that simply a point-of-view based on a
      > story one is holding about "how the world *should* be"? I'm
      > saying that I am happy with the state of the world. I am saying
      > I don't know, absolutely, that it is going to hell. And, to make
      > such a statement would - for me - be an assumption.
      > things that were assumed to be very very bad things (and
      would lead
      > one to conclude that the world is going to hell), have given rise
      > some truly wonderful things (and thus a variant conclusion: the
      > is NOT going to hell).
      > > Of course, according to your thinking there is no reality. I will
      > > ask you the same question I asked Andy. If there is no reality
      > > why remain a part of it. At the most basic level you can
      become an
      > > ascetic, crawl into the mountains, and ignore your
      > > However, there are quicker ways of escaping.
      > *****Sure! There is a novel called "God Is A Bullet," the title of
      > which comes from a poem (found on rock wall outside a bar in
      > God is a bullet
      > Straigt to the head
      > You start feeling better
      > The moment you're dead.
      > What Sandeep, and I, have been suggesting is that whether or
      > there is (or is not) "reality," there is a "I-am-here-ness"
      > experienced at this moment by the bodymind mechanism
      which others
      > refer to as "Andy." That "I-am-here-ness" is very real to me,
      > and, it is lived. Decisions are made. Actions happen to and
      > this bodymind organism.
      > Perhaps, at some time, a compelling enough decision will
      appear that
      > I should no longer remain part of reality (whatever the
      > hell "reality" is! Hahaha!!!!). At the moment, what is felt here is
      > a deep, moving feeling, a yearning, to help ease the confusion
      > is seen to exist. That is why this dialogue has been going on,
      > that is the only reason why. If the love and caring has not been
      > felt, then so be it; but that is what is moving this interchange.
      > > SD: I reiterate, the same essential question,..............what is
      > > the basis on which lies the conviction, of the existential reality
      > > of an independent self in the manifested psycho-somatic
      > > object which society has labeled "Egalelin"?
      > > E: Because it is necessary to interactions with others.
      > *****(Perhaps you are catching on now?). What you write
      above is an
      > assumption. Can you be absolutely SURE that an
      independent self is
      > necessary for interaction with others? Oh, I know, I
      > know...suggesting otherwise is ridiculous, crazy even! I mean,
      > could there be intereaction with others without their being
      > independent selves??? It makes no sense, right? And I'm not
      > it is true, see? All I am inviting you to do is to recognize that
      > there is an assumption there. (Note: many of the "discoveries"
      > quantum mechanics appear to be crazy, or, at least
      > > SD: Don't quote conceptualizations by others, but share what
      > > that basis, that sense of conviction which prevails right now,
      > > the biological object, reading these squiggly signs on a PC
      > > E: I repeat the message I wrote earlier. Because I said so! It
      > > not matter to me whether you accept my identity at all. I reply
      > > my quotings of the conceptualizations of others. You do the
      > > thing. Everything you have said is simply rehashed atheistic
      > > philosophy. There is no evidence of the existence of self.
      There is
      > > not evidence to the Existence of God. However, there is no
      > > of self or God. In reality it does not matter if God, or the Self,
      > > has no reality outside our imaginings. What matters is what
      you do
      > > with it.
      > *****Assumption. You hold a belief that "what matters is what
      you do
      > with it." That may be so. I understand that your belief system
      > tells you it MUST be so, that it is "the way things are." And that
      > may, in fact, be correct. But can you see that such an uttering
      > entails an assumption?
      > > In addition, my sense of self enabled me to survive
      > > trauma (sexual, physical and mental abuse).
      > *****Is this something you would like to talk about?
      > I am deeply happy for your survival (and saddened by any
      trauma you
      > underwent as I am saddened by all the apparent suffering in
      > world).
      > Can you see, however, that there is an assumption being
      made: that it
      > was your sense of self that enabled the survival? Clearly there
      > survival. It happened. It is not being questioned. But exactly
      > what enabled that survival? You assert it was your sense of
      > That may be so. But can you see that it is part of a story you
      > to be true. That something...else...may have been involved in
      > survival. Can you be open to that possibility?
      > > Peace On Your Path
      > And you, on yours.

      SG: good insight - well stated.....

      trauma is held in place by holding a self image that
      continues within the poor me drama....... events happen to a
      form or a self image ..... once that form is known to be simply a
      vehicle and an identity is known to be conditionings surrounding
      an attachment to form ------ when that falls away then the
      lingering abused mentality falls away .......
    • devi@pacific.net
      ... Patanjali. ... formed. ... devi: i have it on order from the library, i ve already read about four or five commentaries, most from indian scholors, i m
      Message 123 of 123 , Dec 17, 2003
        > If you like the study of the mind, Eglaelin, You might try Georg
        > Feuerstein's translation and commentary on "Yoga Sutra" by
        > It is the basis of Raja Yoga. It is very systematic and well
        > Love,
        > Bobby G.

        devi: i have it on order from the library, i've already read about
        four or five commentaries, most from indian scholors, i'm actually
        thinking about offering study groups in my area..
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