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For Sandeep

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  • texasbg2000
    Hi Bobby, Unable to send to the List, hence direct to you. If you are moved to,......would you kindly re-post to the List for me. ... root problem all
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Bobby,

      Unable to send to the List, hence direct to you.

      If you are moved to,......would you kindly re-post to the List for me.


      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep
      <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...>
      > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 09:46 PM
      > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: The solution to the
      root problem all spiritual seekers face
      >
      >
      > <SNIP>
      >
      > > Technically, Self Inquiry is not meditation. But to still the
      mind
      > > is the ultimate object of meditation and that is what Self
      Inquiry
      > > does. The mind is illusion because the mind does not exist
      outside
      > > the existence of the thought that the mind exists.
      >
      > Yes
      >
      > Similarly enlightenment, self-realization, Awakening, etc
      >
      >
      > > With the stilling
      > > of the thoughts, the mind is seen to be an illusion and the
      > > discrimination between Self and not-Self (illusion) is ongoing.
      >
      > Bobby, this was not clear for moi.
      > Would you kindly expand, clarify?
      >
      > The discrimination is ongoing?
      >
      > A prevailing sense of discrimination, would it not be the very mind
      at work?
      >
      > When not a trace of discrimination, or distinction.........
      prevails,...........where is the mind or thoughts to be stilled?


      Hi Sandeep:

      We touched on this before in a previous discussion if you will
      remember. I see discrimination between self and not-self as
      consciousness itself. You see it as a function of mind.

      Sandeep:
      Bobby, it's all terminologies, but sometimes varying connotations,
      cause a dialogue to take place :-)

      Consciousness, being all there is, what is not-
      Consciousness, .............such that,....... a possibility for
      discrimination can exist for Consciousness?

      And yet I am suggesting that mind is the very prevailing sense of
      discrimination.

      Mind, which is a notion, inferred by the mnemonic impressions of past
      experiences,............thus is a result (notional no doubt) of a
      pretence by Consciousness, ..............such that there is an
      apparent separation, ...........and an apparent duality out of that
      separation.

      A term often used for this pretence, is the Divine
      Hypnosis, ..........of itself, by itself, for itself,.....

      .....such that I AM,................AS
      IF..........."becomes" .............I am "Bobby", or " X"," Y","Z",.

      Impersonal presence ,.......as I AM,...........AS IF.....becoming
      identified with "a" personality, ........with billions and billions
      of individual personalities, with their individual conditioned mind,
      arising out of individual prevailing sense of discriminations.

      And voila, this infinite phenomenality.

      The key is,.............."AS IF",.............for there is not an
      iota of alteration in the intrinsic unicity of Consciousness , with
      the appearance or disappearance of phenomenality, arising out of a
      pretence.

      Just like a standing horse.

      The horse while awake, munching some hay,.......is in the standing
      position.
      The same horse, while sound asleep, is again in the standing position.

      The waking or sleeping state and the change from one to the other,
      does not in any affect the intrinsic standing position of the horse.



      Bobby:
      For my side, discrimination between what is real or illusion (the
      mind) can not be illusion.

      Sandeep:
      Fine, if that is what "sits well" on you.

      Just see that,...........from that premise,.......duality has to be
      real for you.
      Thus a separated, individual entity which discrimates, .......has to
      be real for you, as a consequence of that premise.



      Bobby:
      But then I take a very practical view of the issue. I see the naming
      and other mental abilities as the creators of the duality of the
      world and the "I". Once that world of names is stilled there is no
      more world.

      Sandeep:
      Indeed.

      Thus the duality of the "named" (the cognized world) and the "namer".

      Both arise together, both disappear together.
      One cannot exist with the other.

      As exampled, every night in the state of deep-sleep, where there is
      no "Bobby" and no "Bobby's world",..........all sense of
      discriminations haveing ended, in the state of deep-sleep.


      Now, .........that which appears and disappears, ..........no matter
      how substantive it appears to be while it apparently exists,...

      ......cannot be the real.

      For it is on the real, on which this hoopla of appearing and
      disappearing is being recorded,.......so to say.

      Eons back,.....a prattling ........

      Imagine yourself standing in a huge hall where there are thousands of
      mirrors.

      Each mirror has a different curvature, is placed at a different
      angle, is made up of slightly different chemical compositions, such
      that each of your images are different in each of the mirrors.

      And imagine you had the power to and you did bestow the quality of
      sentience to each of the images, whereby each "image" assumed it was
      the subject, cognizing, noting all the other images.

      That except itself, all other images were objects, of which it, was
      the subject.

      Each image "thinks" this and believes it is observing all the other
      characters, out of it's free will, out of it's choice.

      And out of that bestowment,.........each of the images, assumes a
      sense of discrimination about the cognitions it has of
      the "other", ..........by which it
      lables/names, ..........the "other".

      And relates to the "other", through that labeling, through that
      naming.


      And you start dancing, ..............Doooo beeee Dobeeee Dooooo


      And a result of your dance,..........one image thinks, IT MUST GET
      ENLIGHTENMENT, at any cost, through some means and thus prides itself
      as a spiritual seeker,.....

      ......another image thinks, (even has experiences to validate it's
      claim) that IT IS ALREADY ENLIGHTENED,...

      ..while another image, thinks that being enlightened, I must help the
      other images to get ENLIGHTENMENT.

      Majority of the images, ofcourse assumes that spirituality is for
      losers, for those who could not materially succeed in Life.<LOL>


      All,.........danced images,.........as nuances of the dancing
      Dooobeeedooo-er.



      Bobby:
      And the "I" that was in it is left with simple beingness and
      completion, no desires.

      Sandeep:
      Once again as a nuance of that dance, .........in one particular
      image,..............the click,.............and the apperception of
      the Dancer being the danced.

      The immanence and the simultaneous transcendence, exampled in that
      mirroring symbology.


      It is a very normal happenstance and I dont subscribe to the idea of
      all the lights and bells going off in Samadhi (for everyone at least).

      Lights and bells and divine celestial music,...............if it
      occurs.................is again an experience in time, in duration.

      Samadhi, or clanging cosmic bells,...........an arising in
      time, ..........will end in time.

      Whether that duration is for a moment, or for a thousand
      years, .....what's the difference?

      That, whose objective expression is time (which is really change) can
      never be objectified, as an experience,... within time.
    • Bigbobgraham@aol.com
      Hi Bobby, Unable to send to the List, hence direct to you. If you are moved to,......would you kindly re-post to the List for me. ... root problem all
      Message 2 of 2 , Nov 4, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bobby,

        Unable to send to the List, hence direct to you.

        If you are moved to,......would you kindly re-post to the List for me.


        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep
        <sandeepc@b...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...>
        > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 09:46 PM
        > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: The solution to the
        root problem all spiritual seekers face
        >
        >
        > <SNIP>
        >
        > >  Technically, Self Inquiry is not meditation.  But to still the
        mind
        > > is the ultimate object of meditation and that is what Self
        Inquiry
        > > does.  The mind is illusion because the mind does not exist
        outside
        > > the existence of the thought that the mind exists.
        >
        > Yes
        >
        > Similarly enlightenment, self-realization, Awakening, etc
        >
        >
        > >  With the stilling
        > > of the thoughts, the mind is seen to be an illusion and the
        > > discrimination between Self and not-Self (illusion) is ongoing.
        >
        > Bobby, this was not clear for moi.
        > Would you kindly expand, clarify?
        >
        > The discrimination is ongoing?
        >
        > A prevailing sense of discrimination, would it not be the very mind
        at work?
        >
        > When not a trace of discrimination, or distinction.........
        prevails,...........where is the mind or thoughts to be stilled?


        ~~~~~~`Hi Sandeep:

        We touched on this before in a previous discussion if you will remember.  I see discrimination between self and not-self as
        consciousness itself.  You see it as a function of mind.~~~~~~~~~` 

        Sandeep:
        Bobby, it's all terminologies, but sometimes varying connotations, cause a dialogue to take place :-)


        Consciousness, being all there is,  what is not-Consciousness, .............such that,....... a possibility for discrimination can exist for Consciousness?

        Bobby:
        Hi Sandeep:

        A dialogue with you on this is appreciated. 

        I do not mean to discriminate for consciousness but for illusion. Consciousness must of necessity be the subject and not the object.


        Sandeep:
        And yet I am suggesting that mind is the very prevailing sense of discrimination.

        Bobby:

        Of everything except The Self- Not Self where discrimination is not the separating of two things but the noting of an error.

        Sandeep:
        Mind, which is a notion, inferred by the mnemonic impressions of past experiences,............thus is a result (notional no doubt) of a pretence by Consciousness, ..............such that there is an apparent separation, ...........and an apparent duality out of that separation.


        A term often used for this pretence, is the Divine Hypnosis, ..........of itself, by itself, for itself,.....

        .....such that I AM,................AS IF..........."becomes" .............I am "Bobby", or " X"," Y","Z",.

        Impersonal presence ,.......as I AM,...........AS IF.....becoming identified with "a" personality, ........with billions and billions of individual personalities, with their individual conditioned mind, arising out of individual prevailing sense of discriminations.

        And voila, this infinite phenomenality.

        The key is,.............."AS IF",.............for there is not an iota of alteration in the intrinsic unicity of Consciousness , with the appearance or disappearance of phenomenality, arising out of a pretence.

        Just like a standing horse.

        The horse while awake, munching some hay,.......is in the standing position.
        The same horse, while sound asleep, is again in the standing position.

        The waking or sleeping state and the change from one to the other, does not in any affect the intrinsic standing position of the horse.


        Bobby:
        Yes, and that needs to be seen. That is discriminating between what is Self and not-Self. 




        ~~~~~~~~~For my side, discrimination between what is real or illusion (the mind) can not be illusion.~~~~~~~~

        Sandeep:
        Fine, if that is what "sits well" on you.

        Just see that,...........from that premise,.......duality has to be real for you.

        Bobby:
        Sorry no cigar on that one.  Duality recognized, ceases.  Recognition is the name of game.  That is, Consciousness of illusion cannot be illusion.  It would not be Consciousness if it were but more illusion. 

        Sandeep:
        Thus a separated, individual entity which discrimates, .......has to be real for you, as a consequence of that premise.

        Bobby:
        I disagree. That drum beat of there always being 'an entity in any action' denies the elevation of consciousness (the discarding of the baggage that weighs one down). The liberated carry out the actions dictated by karma with dispassion and the unattachment which can only occur by recognition that they are not the "person" involved.
        Liberation must carry with it no less ability than that of those in bondage.  To see or discriminate what is not real, (what would be illusion if not recognized as such), seems indeed to be available to the sage.  Otherwise how would we have received all these wonderful texts and stories of lives that inspire?

        ~~~~~~~~But then I take a very practical view of the issue.  I see the naming
        and other mental abilities as the creators of the duality of the
        world and the "I". Once that world of names is stilled there is no
        more world.~~~~~~

        Sandeep:
        Indeed.


        Thus the duality of the "named" (the cognized world) and the "namer".

        Both arise together, both disappear together.
        One cannot exist with the other.

        As exampled, every night in the state of deep-sleep, where there is no "Bobby" and no "Bobby's world",..........all sense of discriminations haveing ended, in the state of deep-sleep.


        Now, .........that which appears and disappears, ..........no matter how substantive it appears to be while it apparently exists,...

        ......cannot be the real.

        For it is on the real, on which this hoopla of appearing and disappearing is being recorded,.......so to say.

        Eons back,.....a prattling ........

        Imagine yourself standing in a huge hall where there are thousands of mirrors.

        Each mirror has a different curvature, is placed at a different angle, is made up of slightly different chemical compositions, such that each of your images are different in each of the mirrors.

        And imagine you had the power to and you did bestow the quality of sentience to each of the images, whereby each "image" assumed it was the subject, cognizing, noting all the other images.

        That except itself, all other images were objects, of which it, was the subject.

        Each image "thinks" this and believes it is observing all the other characters, out of it's free will, out of it's choice.

        And out of that bestowment,.........each of the images, assumes a sense of discrimination about the cognitions it has of the "other", ..........by which it lables/names, ..........the "other".

        And relates to the "other", through that labeling, through that naming.



        And you start dancing, ..............Doooo beeee Dobeeee Dooooo


        And a result of your dance,..........one image thinks, IT MUST GET ENLIGHTENMENT, at any cost, through some means and thus prides itself as a spiritual seeker,.....

        ......another image thinks, (even has experiences to validate it's claim) that IT IS ALREADY ENLIGHTENED,...

        ..while another image, thinks that being enlightened, I must help the other images to get ENLIGHTENMENT.

        Majority of the images, ofcourse assumes that spirituality is for losers, for those who could not materially succeed in Life.<LOL>


        All,.........danced images,.........as nuances of the dancing Dooobeeedooo-er.



        ~~~~And the "I" that was in it is  left with simple beingness and completion, no desires.~~~~~~~

        Once again as a nuance of that dance, .........in one particular image,..............the click,.............and the apperception of the Dancer being the danced.

        The immanence and the simultaneous transcendence, exampled in that mirroring symbology.


        ~~~~It is a very normal happenstance and I dont subscribe to the idea of all the lights and bells going off in Samadhi (for everyone at least).~~~~~~~

        Lights and bells and divine celestial music,...............if it occurs.................is again an experience in time, in duration.

        Samadhi, or clanging cosmic bells,...........an arising in time, ..........will end in time.

        Whether that duration is for a moment, or for a thousand years, .....what's the difference?

        That, whose objective expression is time (which is really change) can never be objectified, as an experience,... within time.

        Bobby:
        Perception requires a perceiver but the knowing of real time, ongoing, is simple pure Consciousness, wordless and concrete. Beingness is illuminated by its own light and does not need to be perceived. It should not be treated as a frustrating effort in getting behind oneself, but recognised as complete when it is.

        The simpler way of noting the phemomena in a dispassionate way works quite well for understanding to grow. 

        Love,
        Bobby G.



         


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