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Hello Jim / was Re: Picture

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Dear Jim, I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it s A quality. Actually,
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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      Dear Jim,
      I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently
      shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it's "A" quality.
      Actually, although it's very "deep", it also made me smile as I
      witnessed it bringing thoughts similar to "Tell it like it is
      brother!" to mind. Anyway, I hope this is just the start of an ongoing
      mutual exploration of consciousness evolution, or some similar
      adjective. I'm glad you're here. Welcome.
      Peace and blessings,
      Bob

      "Jim Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
      > Hello group,
      >
      >
      >
      > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
      you, but
      > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
      attempt to do
      > so.
      >
      >
      >
      > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
      attendee of a
      > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
      University of
      > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an
      > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
      sentence as
      > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I
      > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan
      > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
      interests to
      > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
      > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
      > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
      studied as
      > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
      little
      > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
      that they
      > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
      >
      >
      >
      > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles,
      > California.
      >
      >
      >
      > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure
      > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of
      > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
      > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas.
      > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
      assure my
      > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
      >
      >
      >
      > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North
      > Whitehead:
      >
      > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied
      > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the
      > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and
      > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
      leading
      > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
      barred.
      > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The
      > Universe is vast."
      >
      >
      >
      > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
      ideas and
      > experiences.
      >
      > Jim
      >
    • carolina112900
      ... Hello Jim, I enjoyed reading your introduction and glad you shared some of your story. ... you, but ... attempt to do ... attendee of a ... University of
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark"
        <jclark310@c...> wrote:
        > Hello group,
        >

        Hello Jim,

        I enjoyed reading your introduction
        and glad you shared some of your
        story.

        >
        >
        > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
        you, but
        > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
        attempt to do
        > so.
        >
        >
        >
        > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
        attendee of a
        > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
        University of
        > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible
        via an
        > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
        sentence as
        > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that
        period I
        > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially
        Alan
        > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
        interests to
        > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
        > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
        > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
        studied as
        > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
        little
        > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
        that they
        > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
        >


        Can you talk more about your knowledge that
        psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
        think that they mean anything other than
        what the basic human senses provide?

        What do you feel is the value of meditation?


        >
        >
        > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los
        Angeles,
        > California.
        >
        >
        >
        > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to
        assure
        > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my
        share of
        > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
        > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new
        ideas.

        > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
        assure my
        > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
        >

        That is interesting how you put that.
        And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
        Can you say more about how you piss everyone
        off as a result of your tolerance?
        How do you know they are pissed off?
        It is always interesting to me how we
        interpret other's reactions.



        >
        >
        > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
        North
        > Whitehead:
        >
        > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
        satisfied
        > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
        cherishes the
        > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
        and
        > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
        leading
        > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
        barred.
        > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
        The
        > Universe is vast."
        >

        I would love to hear more about why this
        is your favorite quote....what does it mean
        to you?

        Thank you and welcome, Jim

        blessings,

        Freyja


        >
        >
        > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
        ideas and
        > experiences.
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
      • Swami-G
        ... which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off. SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ? this is an interesting
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
          Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
          > Hello group,
          >

          > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
          which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

          SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ?

          this is an interesting statement .....

          Om in love
        • jimedclark
          Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome. ... Can you talk more about your knowledge that ... Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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            Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.

            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
            <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
            Can you talk more about your knowledge that
            > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
            > think that they mean anything other than
            > what the basic human senses provide?

            Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
            assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
            regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my mind.

            Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
            readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of these
            events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a much
            bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
            our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
            pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New Theory
            of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
            among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
            example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as means
            by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal of
            the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:

            > What do you feel is the value of meditation?

            Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
            us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
            actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
            mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
            engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
            our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
            priority interrupts.


            > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which
            I
            > assure my
            > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
            > >
            >
            > That is interesting how you put that.
            > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
            > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
            > off as a result of your tolerance?
            > How do you know they are pissed off?
            > It is always interesting to me how we
            > interpret other's reactions.

            I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
            many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my ideas
            to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
            scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
            for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
            who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
            and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo said, "The
            more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its opposite
            screams for acknowledgement."

            What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
            group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
            those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the Easter
            bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games speaking
            loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

            > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
            > North
            > > Whitehead:
            > >
            > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
            > satisfied
            > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
            > cherishes the
            > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
            > and
            > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
            the
            > leading
            > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
            > barred.
            > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
            > The
            > > Universe is vast."
            > >
            >
            > I would love to hear more about why this
            > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
            > to you?
            >
            For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
            themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
            idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find new
            paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
            may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
            events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They then
            insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an extension
            of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
            it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
            matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I hear
            the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
            skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
            it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I have
            no doubt that this view is reciprocated.

            Best regards,

            Jim
          • Swami-G
            ... carolina112900 ... Clark ... senses. I ... with ... mind. ... my ... these ... much ... that ... LeShann ... New Theory ... common ... Masters, for
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              "jimedclark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
              > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
              >
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              "carolina112900"
              > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
              >
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
              Clark" >
              > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
              > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
              > > think that they mean anything other than
              > > what the basic human senses provide?
              >
              > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
              senses. I
              > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be
              with
              > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
              mind.
              >
              > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to
              my
              > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
              these
              > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
              much
              > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and
              that
              > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence
              LeShann
              > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a
              New Theory
              > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly
              common
              > among students who performed mental work under Zen
              Masters, for
              > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects"
              as means
              > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important
              goal of
              > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
              >
              > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
              >
              > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to
              bring
              > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person
              whose
              > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather
              than on
              > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the
              software
              > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
              > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and
              low
              > priority interrupts.
              >
              >
              > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
              which
              > I
              > > assure my
              > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
              > > >
              > >
              > > That is interesting how you put that.
              > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
              > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
              > > off as a result of your tolerance?
              > > How do you know they are pissed off?
              > > It is always interesting to me how we
              > > interpret other's reactions.
              >
              > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
              > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep
              my ideas
              > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
              > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
              > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with
              those
              > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of
              others,
              > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
              said, "The
              > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
              opposite
              > screams for acknowledgement."
              >
              > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on
              which
              > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me
              with
              > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in
              the Easter
              > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play
              head-games speaking
              > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
              >
              > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
              Alfred
              > > North
              > > > Whitehead:
              > > >
              > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the
              self-
              > > satisfied
              > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
              > > cherishes the
              > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
              Skeptics
              > > and
              > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics
              are
              > the
              > > leading
              > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental
              novelty is
              > > barred.
              > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
              adventure.
              > > The
              > > > Universe is vast."
              > > >
              > >
              > > I would love to hear more about why this
              > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
              > > to you?
              > >
              > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
              > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to
              the
              > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
              new
              > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities;
              they
              > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
              > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
              then
              > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
              extension
              > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no
              circumstances is
              > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
              > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
              hear
              > the same old responses I used to use when I was a
              well-trained
              > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal
              somewhere,
              > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
              have
              > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Jim


              SG: wherever your attention is pointing that is the avenue
              open for exploration..... from that point of openness
              the creative mind expands.......

              or the avenue willing to be heard as it is the point of
              referance for that conditional self image ........ if it holds
              ones self image in place then it is the *right* one......

              sometimes one exchanges one set of conditioned
              response for another......

              eventually they begin to crumble in the light of day and
              a whole new paradigm emerges .......

              as long as revolving phenomena is the focal point
              then there is no stable point of referance other than the
              current set of belief's and one is apt
              to do this motion of standing on a roller board
              identity while juggling the latest mental conceptulization...

              meditation stops the frenetic action..... the juggling
              stops....... one steps off the board and begins to
              see what has always been right here ...... it comes into
              focus and clarity now that the attention isn't being
              diverted to image balance or mental jugglings......

              what is left ? just walking and enjoying the freedom
              of being unencumbered by the juggling act ......
            • carolina112900
              Jim, Thank you for taking the time to expand on these topics. We all have a story/stories :-) As Joan Tollifson wrote, Stories make apparent sense out of what
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
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                Jim,

                Thank you for taking the time
                to expand on these topics.

                We all have a story/stories :-)

                As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                "Stories make apparent sense out of
                what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                They give meaning and importance to the
                fiction of myself and all that I identify
                with: my family, my civilization, my
                ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                gender, my generation. Stories are entertaining.
                God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                lost and found.

                Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                them. Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                up, reveal truth or conceal it. The same story
                can serve different functions at different moments.
                It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                different functions at different moments. It's
                a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                generating suffering. Likewise, it is a
                great art to discern the difference between
                actuality and concept. The conceptual filters
                through which we think about everything are so
                ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                to mistake them for actuality. No separate,
                independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                apparently, in the story."


                Your presence is a nice addition here.

                cheers,
                Freyja


                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                >
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                >
                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                > > think that they mean anything other than
                > > what the basic human senses provide?
                >
                > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                mind.
                >
                > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                these
                > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                much
                > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                Theory
                > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                means
                > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                of
                > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                >
                > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                >
                > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                > priority interrupts.
                >
                >
                > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                which
                > I
                > > assure my
                > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                > > >
                > >
                > > That is interesting how you put that.
                > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                > > It is always interesting to me how we
                > > interpret other's reactions.
                >
                > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                ideas
                > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                mystical
                > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                said, "The
                > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                opposite
                > screams for acknowledgement."
                >
                > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                Easter
                > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                speaking
                > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                >
                > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                Alfred
                > > North
                > > > Whitehead:
                > > >
                > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                > > satisfied
                > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                > > cherishes the
                > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                Skeptics
                > > and
                > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                > the
                > > leading
                > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                is
                > > barred.
                > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                adventure.
                > > The
                > > > Universe is vast."
                > > >
                > >
                > > I would love to hear more about why this
                > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                > > to you?
                > >
                > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                new
                > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                then
                > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                extension
                > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                hear
                > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                have
                > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > Jim
              • Jim Clark
                Freyja, Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I ve heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me. Jim ... From:
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
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                  Freyja,
                   
                  Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I've heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me.
                   
                  Jim
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: carolina112900 [mailto:freyjartist@...]
                  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:22 AM
                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

                  Jim,

                  Thank you for taking the time
                  to expand on these topics.

                  We all have a story/stories :-)

                  As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                  "Stories make apparent sense out of
                  what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                  They give meaning and importance to the
                  fiction of myself and all that I identify
                  with: my family, my civilization, my
                  ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                  sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                  gender, my generation.  Stories are entertaining.
                  God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                  lost and found.

                  Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                  limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                  them.  Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                  up, reveal truth or conceal it.   The same story
                  can serve different functions at different moments.
                  It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                  different functions at different moments.  It's
                  a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                  open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                  lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                  generating suffering.  Likewise, it is a
                  great art to discern the difference between
                  actuality and concept.  The conceptual filters
                  through which we think about everything are so
                  ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                  to mistake them for actuality.  No separate,
                  independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                  apparently, in the story."


                  Your presence is a nice addition here.

                  cheers,
                  Freyja 


                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                  <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                  > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                  >
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                  > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                  > > psychic experiences are genuine.  Do you
                  > > think that they mean anything other than
                  > > what the basic human senses provide?
                  >
                  > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                  > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                  > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                  mind.
                  >
                  > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                  > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                  these
                  > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                  much
                  > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                  > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                  > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                  Theory
                  > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                  > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                  > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                  means
                  > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                  of
                  > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                  >
                  > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                  >
                  > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                  > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                  > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                  > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                  > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                  > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                  > priority interrupts.


                  > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                  which
                  > I
                  > > assure my
                  > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > That is interesting how you put that.
                  > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                  > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                  > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                  > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                  > > It is always interesting to me how we
                  > > interpret other's reactions.
                  >
                  > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                  > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                  ideas
                  > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                  > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                  mystical
                  > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                  > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                  > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                  said, "The
                  > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                  opposite
                  > screams for acknowledgement."
                  >
                  > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                  > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                  > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                  Easter
                  > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                  speaking
                  > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                  > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                  Alfred
                  > > North
                  > > > Whitehead:
                  > > >
                  > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                  > > satisfied
                  > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                  > > cherishes the
                  > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                  Skeptics
                  > > and
                  > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                  > the
                  > > leading
                  > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                  is
                  > > barred.
                  > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                  adventure.
                  > > The
                  > > > Universe is vast."
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I would love to hear more about why this
                  > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                  > > to you?
                  > >
                  > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                  > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                  > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                  new
                  > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                  > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                  > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                  then
                  > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                  extension
                  > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                  > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                  > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                  hear
                  > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                  > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                  > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                  have
                  > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Jim



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                • Sandy
                  Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I think this is going to be a great list to be part of. Hugs, Sandy
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I
                    think this is going to be a great list to be part of.

                    Hugs,

                    Sandy
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