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Re: Picture

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  • texasbg2000
    ... where ... a ... *generic*, ... get ... Hi Devi: Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years
      > ago
      > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
      > > then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.
      > >
      > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
      where
      > > you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
      > > Bobby G.
      >
      > devi:
      >
      > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
      >
      > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
      a
      > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
      *generic*,
      > in other words they look like they could be california
      > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
      > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
      > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
      > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
      > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
      get
      > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
      > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
      > have any 9x12s?

      Hi Devi:

      Thank you for looking into that and getting the link.

      It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do mostly commissions
      and the paintings that I post here are just for myself. I have
      gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
      gallery would be good. Things change you know and life is long. It
      is good to take new directions sometimes. Perhaps that gallery will
      want my work and I will move there for the rest of life. Who knows?

      In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

      And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
      frames but I am not good at making them.

      And dozens of small pieces.

      And large ones. I will past a large on in the photos section from
      Arches.

      Thanks again for your interest.

      Love,
      Bobby G.
    • Jim Clark
      Hello group, As your newest addition to this society, I don t know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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        Hello group,

         

        As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt to do so.

         

        I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular attendee of a Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the University of Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory sentence as a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my interests to other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce, Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga, studied as many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my little mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know that they are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.

         

        I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles, California.

         

        I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of madness and “folly”. I continue to strive for enough stability to be meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas. Tolerance of everyone else’s point of view is the means by which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

         

        My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North Whitehead:

        “The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the leading dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is barred. This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The Universe is vast.”

         

        I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your ideas and experiences.
         
        Jim
         -----Original Message-----
        From: texasbg2000 [mailto:Bigbobgraham@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 5:58 PM
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Northern Cal sounds great.  I was off to visit Oregon Four years
        > ago
        > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
        > > then New Mexico.  so years later I still have that to do. 
        > >
        > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
        where
        > > you are?  I still have them all, I never sell anything.
        > > Bobby G.
        >
        > devi:
        >
        > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
        >
        > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
        a
        > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
        *generic*,
        > in other words they look like they could be california
        > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
        > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
        > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
        > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
        > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
        get
        > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
        > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
        > have any 9x12s?

        Hi Devi:

        Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. 

        It is not that I never sell but I seldom do.  I do mostly commissions
        and the paintings that I post here are just for myself.  I have
        gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
        gallery would be good.  Things change you know and life is long.  It
        is good to take new directions sometimes.  Perhaps that gallery will
        want my work and I will move there for the rest of life.  Who knows?

        In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

        And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
        frames but I am not good at making them. 

        And dozens of small pieces.

        And large ones.  I will past a large on in the photos section from
        Arches.

        Thanks again for your interest.

        Love,
        Bobby G.










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      • medit8ionsociety
        Dear Jim, I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it s A quality. Actually,
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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          Dear Jim,
          I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently
          shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it's "A" quality.
          Actually, although it's very "deep", it also made me smile as I
          witnessed it bringing thoughts similar to "Tell it like it is
          brother!" to mind. Anyway, I hope this is just the start of an ongoing
          mutual exploration of consciousness evolution, or some similar
          adjective. I'm glad you're here. Welcome.
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob

          "Jim Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
          > Hello group,
          >
          >
          >
          > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
          you, but
          > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
          attempt to do
          > so.
          >
          >
          >
          > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
          attendee of a
          > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
          University of
          > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an
          > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
          sentence as
          > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I
          > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan
          > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
          interests to
          > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
          > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
          > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
          studied as
          > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
          little
          > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
          that they
          > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
          >
          >
          >
          > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles,
          > California.
          >
          >
          >
          > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure
          > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of
          > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
          > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas.
          > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
          assure my
          > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
          >
          >
          >
          > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North
          > Whitehead:
          >
          > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied
          > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the
          > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and
          > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
          leading
          > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
          barred.
          > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The
          > Universe is vast."
          >
          >
          >
          > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
          ideas and
          > experiences.
          >
          > Jim
          >
        • carolina112900
          ... Hello Jim, I enjoyed reading your introduction and glad you shared some of your story. ... you, but ... attempt to do ... attendee of a ... University of
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark"
            <jclark310@c...> wrote:
            > Hello group,
            >

            Hello Jim,

            I enjoyed reading your introduction
            and glad you shared some of your
            story.

            >
            >
            > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
            you, but
            > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
            attempt to do
            > so.
            >
            >
            >
            > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
            attendee of a
            > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
            University of
            > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible
            via an
            > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
            sentence as
            > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that
            period I
            > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially
            Alan
            > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
            interests to
            > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
            > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
            > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
            studied as
            > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
            little
            > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
            that they
            > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
            >


            Can you talk more about your knowledge that
            psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
            think that they mean anything other than
            what the basic human senses provide?

            What do you feel is the value of meditation?


            >
            >
            > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los
            Angeles,
            > California.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to
            assure
            > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my
            share of
            > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
            > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new
            ideas.

            > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
            assure my
            > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
            >

            That is interesting how you put that.
            And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
            Can you say more about how you piss everyone
            off as a result of your tolerance?
            How do you know they are pissed off?
            It is always interesting to me how we
            interpret other's reactions.



            >
            >
            > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
            North
            > Whitehead:
            >
            > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
            satisfied
            > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
            cherishes the
            > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
            and
            > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
            leading
            > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
            barred.
            > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
            The
            > Universe is vast."
            >

            I would love to hear more about why this
            is your favorite quote....what does it mean
            to you?

            Thank you and welcome, Jim

            blessings,

            Freyja


            >
            >
            > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
            ideas and
            > experiences.
            >
            > Jim
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
          • Swami-G
            ... which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off. SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ? this is an interesting
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
              Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
              > Hello group,
              >

              > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
              which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

              SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ?

              this is an interesting statement .....

              Om in love
            • jimedclark
              Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome. ... Can you talk more about your knowledge that ... Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.

                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                > think that they mean anything other than
                > what the basic human senses provide?

                Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my mind.

                Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of these
                events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a much
                bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New Theory
                of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as means
                by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal of
                the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:

                > What do you feel is the value of meditation?

                Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                priority interrupts.


                > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which
                I
                > assure my
                > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                > >
                >
                > That is interesting how you put that.
                > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                > off as a result of your tolerance?
                > How do you know they are pissed off?
                > It is always interesting to me how we
                > interpret other's reactions.

                I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my ideas
                to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo said, "The
                more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its opposite
                screams for acknowledgement."

                What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the Easter
                bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games speaking
                loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
                > North
                > > Whitehead:
                > >
                > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                > satisfied
                > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                > cherishes the
                > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
                > and
                > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                the
                > leading
                > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
                > barred.
                > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
                > The
                > > Universe is vast."
                > >
                >
                > I would love to hear more about why this
                > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                > to you?
                >
                For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find new
                paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They then
                insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an extension
                of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I hear
                the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I have
                no doubt that this view is reciprocated.

                Best regards,

                Jim
              • Swami-G
                ... carolina112900 ... Clark ... senses. I ... with ... mind. ... my ... these ... much ... that ... LeShann ... New Theory ... common ... Masters, for
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  "jimedclark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                  > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                  >
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  "carolina112900"
                  > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
                  Clark" >
                  > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                  > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                  > > think that they mean anything other than
                  > > what the basic human senses provide?
                  >
                  > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
                  senses. I
                  > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be
                  with
                  > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                  mind.
                  >
                  > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to
                  my
                  > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                  these
                  > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                  much
                  > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and
                  that
                  > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence
                  LeShann
                  > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a
                  New Theory
                  > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly
                  common
                  > among students who performed mental work under Zen
                  Masters, for
                  > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects"
                  as means
                  > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important
                  goal of
                  > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                  >
                  > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                  >
                  > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to
                  bring
                  > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person
                  whose
                  > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather
                  than on
                  > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the
                  software
                  > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                  > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and
                  low
                  > priority interrupts.
                  >
                  >
                  > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                  which
                  > I
                  > > assure my
                  > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > That is interesting how you put that.
                  > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                  > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                  > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                  > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                  > > It is always interesting to me how we
                  > > interpret other's reactions.
                  >
                  > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                  > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep
                  my ideas
                  > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                  > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                  > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with
                  those
                  > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of
                  others,
                  > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                  said, "The
                  > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                  opposite
                  > screams for acknowledgement."
                  >
                  > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on
                  which
                  > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me
                  with
                  > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in
                  the Easter
                  > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play
                  head-games speaking
                  > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                  >
                  > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                  Alfred
                  > > North
                  > > > Whitehead:
                  > > >
                  > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the
                  self-
                  > > satisfied
                  > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                  > > cherishes the
                  > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                  Skeptics
                  > > and
                  > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics
                  are
                  > the
                  > > leading
                  > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental
                  novelty is
                  > > barred.
                  > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                  adventure.
                  > > The
                  > > > Universe is vast."
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I would love to hear more about why this
                  > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                  > > to you?
                  > >
                  > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                  > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to
                  the
                  > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                  new
                  > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities;
                  they
                  > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                  > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                  then
                  > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                  extension
                  > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no
                  circumstances is
                  > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                  > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                  hear
                  > the same old responses I used to use when I was a
                  well-trained
                  > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal
                  somewhere,
                  > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                  have
                  > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Jim


                  SG: wherever your attention is pointing that is the avenue
                  open for exploration..... from that point of openness
                  the creative mind expands.......

                  or the avenue willing to be heard as it is the point of
                  referance for that conditional self image ........ if it holds
                  ones self image in place then it is the *right* one......

                  sometimes one exchanges one set of conditioned
                  response for another......

                  eventually they begin to crumble in the light of day and
                  a whole new paradigm emerges .......

                  as long as revolving phenomena is the focal point
                  then there is no stable point of referance other than the
                  current set of belief's and one is apt
                  to do this motion of standing on a roller board
                  identity while juggling the latest mental conceptulization...

                  meditation stops the frenetic action..... the juggling
                  stops....... one steps off the board and begins to
                  see what has always been right here ...... it comes into
                  focus and clarity now that the attention isn't being
                  diverted to image balance or mental jugglings......

                  what is left ? just walking and enjoying the freedom
                  of being unencumbered by the juggling act ......
                • carolina112900
                  Jim, Thank you for taking the time to expand on these topics. We all have a story/stories :-) As Joan Tollifson wrote, Stories make apparent sense out of what
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
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                    Jim,

                    Thank you for taking the time
                    to expand on these topics.

                    We all have a story/stories :-)

                    As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                    "Stories make apparent sense out of
                    what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                    They give meaning and importance to the
                    fiction of myself and all that I identify
                    with: my family, my civilization, my
                    ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                    sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                    gender, my generation. Stories are entertaining.
                    God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                    lost and found.

                    Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                    limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                    them. Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                    up, reveal truth or conceal it. The same story
                    can serve different functions at different moments.
                    It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                    different functions at different moments. It's
                    a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                    open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                    lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                    generating suffering. Likewise, it is a
                    great art to discern the difference between
                    actuality and concept. The conceptual filters
                    through which we think about everything are so
                    ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                    to mistake them for actuality. No separate,
                    independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                    apparently, in the story."


                    Your presence is a nice addition here.

                    cheers,
                    Freyja


                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                    <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                    > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                    > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                    > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                    > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                    > > think that they mean anything other than
                    > > what the basic human senses provide?
                    >
                    > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                    > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                    > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                    mind.
                    >
                    > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                    > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                    these
                    > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                    much
                    > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                    > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                    > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                    Theory
                    > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                    > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                    > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                    means
                    > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                    of
                    > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                    >
                    > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                    >
                    > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                    > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                    > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                    > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                    > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                    > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                    > priority interrupts.
                    >
                    >
                    > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                    which
                    > I
                    > > assure my
                    > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > That is interesting how you put that.
                    > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                    > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                    > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                    > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                    > > It is always interesting to me how we
                    > > interpret other's reactions.
                    >
                    > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                    > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                    ideas
                    > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                    > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                    mystical
                    > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                    > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                    > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                    said, "The
                    > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                    opposite
                    > screams for acknowledgement."
                    >
                    > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                    > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                    > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                    Easter
                    > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                    speaking
                    > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                    >
                    > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                    Alfred
                    > > North
                    > > > Whitehead:
                    > > >
                    > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                    > > satisfied
                    > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                    > > cherishes the
                    > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                    Skeptics
                    > > and
                    > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                    > the
                    > > leading
                    > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                    is
                    > > barred.
                    > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                    adventure.
                    > > The
                    > > > Universe is vast."
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > I would love to hear more about why this
                    > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                    > > to you?
                    > >
                    > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                    > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                    > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                    new
                    > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                    > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                    > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                    then
                    > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                    extension
                    > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                    > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                    > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                    hear
                    > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                    > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                    > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                    have
                    > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Jim
                  • Jim Clark
                    Freyja, Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I ve heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me. Jim ... From:
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Freyja,
                       
                      Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I've heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me.
                       
                      Jim
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: carolina112900 [mailto:freyjartist@...]
                      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:22 AM
                      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

                      Jim,

                      Thank you for taking the time
                      to expand on these topics.

                      We all have a story/stories :-)

                      As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                      "Stories make apparent sense out of
                      what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                      They give meaning and importance to the
                      fiction of myself and all that I identify
                      with: my family, my civilization, my
                      ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                      sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                      gender, my generation.  Stories are entertaining.
                      God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                      lost and found.

                      Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                      limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                      them.  Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                      up, reveal truth or conceal it.   The same story
                      can serve different functions at different moments.
                      It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                      different functions at different moments.  It's
                      a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                      open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                      lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                      generating suffering.  Likewise, it is a
                      great art to discern the difference between
                      actuality and concept.  The conceptual filters
                      through which we think about everything are so
                      ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                      to mistake them for actuality.  No separate,
                      independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                      apparently, in the story."


                      Your presence is a nice addition here.

                      cheers,
                      Freyja 


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                      <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                      > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                      >
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                      > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                      > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                      > > psychic experiences are genuine.  Do you
                      > > think that they mean anything other than
                      > > what the basic human senses provide?
                      >
                      > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                      > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                      > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                      mind.
                      >
                      > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                      > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                      these
                      > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                      much
                      > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                      > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                      > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                      Theory
                      > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                      > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                      > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                      means
                      > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                      of
                      > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                      >
                      > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                      >
                      > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                      > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                      > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                      > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                      > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                      > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                      > priority interrupts.


                      > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                      which
                      > I
                      > > assure my
                      > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > That is interesting how you put that.
                      > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                      > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                      > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                      > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                      > > It is always interesting to me how we
                      > > interpret other's reactions.
                      >
                      > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                      > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                      ideas
                      > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                      > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                      mystical
                      > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                      > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                      > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                      said, "The
                      > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                      opposite
                      > screams for acknowledgement."
                      >
                      > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                      > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                      > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                      Easter
                      > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                      speaking
                      > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                      > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                      Alfred
                      > > North
                      > > > Whitehead:
                      > > >
                      > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                      > > satisfied
                      > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                      > > cherishes the
                      > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                      Skeptics
                      > > and
                      > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                      > the
                      > > leading
                      > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                      is
                      > > barred.
                      > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                      adventure.
                      > > The
                      > > > Universe is vast."
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I would love to hear more about why this
                      > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                      > > to you?
                      > >
                      > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                      > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                      > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                      new
                      > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                      > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                      > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                      then
                      > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                      extension
                      > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                      > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                      > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                      hear
                      > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                      > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                      > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                      have
                      > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Jim



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                    • Sandy
                      Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I think this is going to be a great list to be part of. Hugs, Sandy
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I
                        think this is going to be a great list to be part of.

                        Hugs,

                        Sandy
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