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  • devianandi
    ... ago ... devi: http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/ this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take a look and see if you compare..some
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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      >
      > Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years
      ago
      > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
      > then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.
      >
      > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there where
      > you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
      > Bobby G.

      devi:

      http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/

      this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take a
      look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem *generic*,
      in other words they look like they could be california
      scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
      studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
      sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
      thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
      painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't get
      it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
      selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
      have any 9x12s?
    • texasbg2000
      ... where ... a ... *generic*, ... get ... Hi Devi: Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years
        > ago
        > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
        > > then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.
        > >
        > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
        where
        > > you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
        > > Bobby G.
        >
        > devi:
        >
        > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
        >
        > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
        a
        > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
        *generic*,
        > in other words they look like they could be california
        > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
        > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
        > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
        > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
        > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
        get
        > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
        > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
        > have any 9x12s?

        Hi Devi:

        Thank you for looking into that and getting the link.

        It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do mostly commissions
        and the paintings that I post here are just for myself. I have
        gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
        gallery would be good. Things change you know and life is long. It
        is good to take new directions sometimes. Perhaps that gallery will
        want my work and I will move there for the rest of life. Who knows?

        In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

        And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
        frames but I am not good at making them.

        And dozens of small pieces.

        And large ones. I will past a large on in the photos section from
        Arches.

        Thanks again for your interest.

        Love,
        Bobby G.
      • Jim Clark
        Hello group, As your newest addition to this society, I don t know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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          Hello group,

           

          As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt to do so.

           

          I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular attendee of a Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the University of Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory sentence as a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my interests to other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce, Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga, studied as many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my little mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know that they are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.

           

          I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles, California.

           

          I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of madness and “folly”. I continue to strive for enough stability to be meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas. Tolerance of everyone else’s point of view is the means by which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

           

          My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North Whitehead:

          “The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the leading dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is barred. This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The Universe is vast.”

           

          I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your ideas and experiences.
           
          Jim
           -----Original Message-----
          From: texasbg2000 [mailto:Bigbobgraham@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 5:58 PM
          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Northern Cal sounds great.  I was off to visit Oregon Four years
          > ago
          > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
          > > then New Mexico.  so years later I still have that to do. 
          > >
          > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
          where
          > > you are?  I still have them all, I never sell anything.
          > > Bobby G.
          >
          > devi:
          >
          > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
          >
          > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
          a
          > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
          *generic*,
          > in other words they look like they could be california
          > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
          > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
          > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
          > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
          > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
          get
          > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
          > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
          > have any 9x12s?

          Hi Devi:

          Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. 

          It is not that I never sell but I seldom do.  I do mostly commissions
          and the paintings that I post here are just for myself.  I have
          gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
          gallery would be good.  Things change you know and life is long.  It
          is good to take new directions sometimes.  Perhaps that gallery will
          want my work and I will move there for the rest of life.  Who knows?

          In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

          And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
          frames but I am not good at making them. 

          And dozens of small pieces.

          And large ones.  I will past a large on in the photos section from
          Arches.

          Thanks again for your interest.

          Love,
          Bobby G.










          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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        • medit8ionsociety
          Dear Jim, I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it s A quality. Actually,
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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            Dear Jim,
            I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently
            shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it's "A" quality.
            Actually, although it's very "deep", it also made me smile as I
            witnessed it bringing thoughts similar to "Tell it like it is
            brother!" to mind. Anyway, I hope this is just the start of an ongoing
            mutual exploration of consciousness evolution, or some similar
            adjective. I'm glad you're here. Welcome.
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob

            "Jim Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
            > Hello group,
            >
            >
            >
            > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
            you, but
            > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
            attempt to do
            > so.
            >
            >
            >
            > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
            attendee of a
            > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
            University of
            > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an
            > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
            sentence as
            > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I
            > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan
            > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
            interests to
            > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
            > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
            > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
            studied as
            > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
            little
            > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
            that they
            > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
            >
            >
            >
            > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles,
            > California.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure
            > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of
            > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
            > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas.
            > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
            assure my
            > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
            >
            >
            >
            > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North
            > Whitehead:
            >
            > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied
            > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the
            > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and
            > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
            leading
            > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
            barred.
            > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The
            > Universe is vast."
            >
            >
            >
            > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
            ideas and
            > experiences.
            >
            > Jim
            >
          • carolina112900
            ... Hello Jim, I enjoyed reading your introduction and glad you shared some of your story. ... you, but ... attempt to do ... attendee of a ... University of
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark"
              <jclark310@c...> wrote:
              > Hello group,
              >

              Hello Jim,

              I enjoyed reading your introduction
              and glad you shared some of your
              story.

              >
              >
              > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
              you, but
              > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
              attempt to do
              > so.
              >
              >
              >
              > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
              attendee of a
              > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
              University of
              > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible
              via an
              > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
              sentence as
              > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that
              period I
              > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially
              Alan
              > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
              interests to
              > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
              > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
              > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
              studied as
              > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
              little
              > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
              that they
              > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
              >


              Can you talk more about your knowledge that
              psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
              think that they mean anything other than
              what the basic human senses provide?

              What do you feel is the value of meditation?


              >
              >
              > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los
              Angeles,
              > California.
              >
              >
              >
              > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to
              assure
              > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my
              share of
              > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
              > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new
              ideas.

              > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
              assure my
              > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
              >

              That is interesting how you put that.
              And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
              Can you say more about how you piss everyone
              off as a result of your tolerance?
              How do you know they are pissed off?
              It is always interesting to me how we
              interpret other's reactions.



              >
              >
              > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
              North
              > Whitehead:
              >
              > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
              satisfied
              > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
              cherishes the
              > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
              and
              > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
              leading
              > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
              barred.
              > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
              The
              > Universe is vast."
              >

              I would love to hear more about why this
              is your favorite quote....what does it mean
              to you?

              Thank you and welcome, Jim

              blessings,

              Freyja


              >
              >
              > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
              ideas and
              > experiences.
              >
              > Jim
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
            • Swami-G
              ... which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off. SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ? this is an interesting
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
                Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                > Hello group,
                >

                > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

                SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ?

                this is an interesting statement .....

                Om in love
              • jimedclark
                Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome. ... Can you talk more about your knowledge that ... Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                  Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.

                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                  <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                  Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                  > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                  > think that they mean anything other than
                  > what the basic human senses provide?

                  Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                  assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                  regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my mind.

                  Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                  readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of these
                  events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a much
                  bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                  our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                  pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New Theory
                  of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                  among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                  example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as means
                  by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal of
                  the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:

                  > What do you feel is the value of meditation?

                  Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                  us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                  actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                  mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                  engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                  our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                  priority interrupts.


                  > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which
                  I
                  > assure my
                  > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                  > >
                  >
                  > That is interesting how you put that.
                  > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                  > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                  > off as a result of your tolerance?
                  > How do you know they are pissed off?
                  > It is always interesting to me how we
                  > interpret other's reactions.

                  I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                  many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my ideas
                  to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                  scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                  for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                  who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                  and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo said, "The
                  more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its opposite
                  screams for acknowledgement."

                  What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                  group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                  those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the Easter
                  bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games speaking
                  loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                  > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
                  > North
                  > > Whitehead:
                  > >
                  > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                  > satisfied
                  > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                  > cherishes the
                  > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
                  > and
                  > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                  the
                  > leading
                  > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
                  > barred.
                  > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
                  > The
                  > > Universe is vast."
                  > >
                  >
                  > I would love to hear more about why this
                  > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                  > to you?
                  >
                  For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                  themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                  idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find new
                  paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                  may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                  events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They then
                  insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an extension
                  of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                  it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                  matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I hear
                  the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                  skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                  it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I have
                  no doubt that this view is reciprocated.

                  Best regards,

                  Jim
                • Swami-G
                  ... carolina112900 ... Clark ... senses. I ... with ... mind. ... my ... these ... much ... that ... LeShann ... New Theory ... common ... Masters, for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    "jimedclark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                    > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    "carolina112900"
                    > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
                    Clark" >
                    > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                    > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                    > > think that they mean anything other than
                    > > what the basic human senses provide?
                    >
                    > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
                    senses. I
                    > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be
                    with
                    > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                    mind.
                    >
                    > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to
                    my
                    > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                    these
                    > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                    much
                    > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and
                    that
                    > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence
                    LeShann
                    > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a
                    New Theory
                    > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly
                    common
                    > among students who performed mental work under Zen
                    Masters, for
                    > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects"
                    as means
                    > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important
                    goal of
                    > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                    >
                    > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                    >
                    > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to
                    bring
                    > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person
                    whose
                    > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather
                    than on
                    > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the
                    software
                    > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                    > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and
                    low
                    > priority interrupts.
                    >
                    >
                    > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                    which
                    > I
                    > > assure my
                    > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > That is interesting how you put that.
                    > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                    > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                    > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                    > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                    > > It is always interesting to me how we
                    > > interpret other's reactions.
                    >
                    > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                    > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep
                    my ideas
                    > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                    > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                    > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with
                    those
                    > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of
                    others,
                    > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                    said, "The
                    > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                    opposite
                    > screams for acknowledgement."
                    >
                    > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on
                    which
                    > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me
                    with
                    > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in
                    the Easter
                    > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play
                    head-games speaking
                    > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                    >
                    > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                    Alfred
                    > > North
                    > > > Whitehead:
                    > > >
                    > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the
                    self-
                    > > satisfied
                    > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                    > > cherishes the
                    > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                    Skeptics
                    > > and
                    > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics
                    are
                    > the
                    > > leading
                    > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental
                    novelty is
                    > > barred.
                    > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                    adventure.
                    > > The
                    > > > Universe is vast."
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > I would love to hear more about why this
                    > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                    > > to you?
                    > >
                    > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                    > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to
                    the
                    > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                    new
                    > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities;
                    they
                    > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                    > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                    then
                    > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                    extension
                    > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no
                    circumstances is
                    > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                    > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                    hear
                    > the same old responses I used to use when I was a
                    well-trained
                    > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal
                    somewhere,
                    > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                    have
                    > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Jim


                    SG: wherever your attention is pointing that is the avenue
                    open for exploration..... from that point of openness
                    the creative mind expands.......

                    or the avenue willing to be heard as it is the point of
                    referance for that conditional self image ........ if it holds
                    ones self image in place then it is the *right* one......

                    sometimes one exchanges one set of conditioned
                    response for another......

                    eventually they begin to crumble in the light of day and
                    a whole new paradigm emerges .......

                    as long as revolving phenomena is the focal point
                    then there is no stable point of referance other than the
                    current set of belief's and one is apt
                    to do this motion of standing on a roller board
                    identity while juggling the latest mental conceptulization...

                    meditation stops the frenetic action..... the juggling
                    stops....... one steps off the board and begins to
                    see what has always been right here ...... it comes into
                    focus and clarity now that the attention isn't being
                    diverted to image balance or mental jugglings......

                    what is left ? just walking and enjoying the freedom
                    of being unencumbered by the juggling act ......
                  • carolina112900
                    Jim, Thank you for taking the time to expand on these topics. We all have a story/stories :-) As Joan Tollifson wrote, Stories make apparent sense out of what
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
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                      Jim,

                      Thank you for taking the time
                      to expand on these topics.

                      We all have a story/stories :-)

                      As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                      "Stories make apparent sense out of
                      what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                      They give meaning and importance to the
                      fiction of myself and all that I identify
                      with: my family, my civilization, my
                      ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                      sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                      gender, my generation. Stories are entertaining.
                      God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                      lost and found.

                      Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                      limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                      them. Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                      up, reveal truth or conceal it. The same story
                      can serve different functions at different moments.
                      It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                      different functions at different moments. It's
                      a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                      open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                      lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                      generating suffering. Likewise, it is a
                      great art to discern the difference between
                      actuality and concept. The conceptual filters
                      through which we think about everything are so
                      ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                      to mistake them for actuality. No separate,
                      independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                      apparently, in the story."


                      Your presence is a nice addition here.

                      cheers,
                      Freyja


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                      <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                      > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                      >
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                      > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                      > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                      > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                      > > think that they mean anything other than
                      > > what the basic human senses provide?
                      >
                      > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                      > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                      > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                      mind.
                      >
                      > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                      > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                      these
                      > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                      much
                      > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                      > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                      > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                      Theory
                      > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                      > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                      > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                      means
                      > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                      of
                      > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                      >
                      > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                      >
                      > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                      > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                      > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                      > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                      > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                      > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                      > priority interrupts.
                      >
                      >
                      > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                      which
                      > I
                      > > assure my
                      > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > That is interesting how you put that.
                      > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                      > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                      > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                      > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                      > > It is always interesting to me how we
                      > > interpret other's reactions.
                      >
                      > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                      > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                      ideas
                      > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                      > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                      mystical
                      > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                      > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                      > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                      said, "The
                      > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                      opposite
                      > screams for acknowledgement."
                      >
                      > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                      > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                      > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                      Easter
                      > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                      speaking
                      > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                      >
                      > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                      Alfred
                      > > North
                      > > > Whitehead:
                      > > >
                      > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                      > > satisfied
                      > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                      > > cherishes the
                      > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                      Skeptics
                      > > and
                      > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                      > the
                      > > leading
                      > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                      is
                      > > barred.
                      > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                      adventure.
                      > > The
                      > > > Universe is vast."
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I would love to hear more about why this
                      > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                      > > to you?
                      > >
                      > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                      > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                      > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                      new
                      > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                      > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                      > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                      then
                      > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                      extension
                      > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                      > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                      > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                      hear
                      > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                      > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                      > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                      have
                      > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Jim
                    • Jim Clark
                      Freyja, Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I ve heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me. Jim ... From:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Freyja,
                         
                        Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I've heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me.
                         
                        Jim
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: carolina112900 [mailto:freyjartist@...]
                        Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:22 AM
                        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

                        Jim,

                        Thank you for taking the time
                        to expand on these topics.

                        We all have a story/stories :-)

                        As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                        "Stories make apparent sense out of
                        what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                        They give meaning and importance to the
                        fiction of myself and all that I identify
                        with: my family, my civilization, my
                        ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                        sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                        gender, my generation.  Stories are entertaining.
                        God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                        lost and found.

                        Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                        limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                        them.  Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                        up, reveal truth or conceal it.   The same story
                        can serve different functions at different moments.
                        It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                        different functions at different moments.  It's
                        a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                        open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                        lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                        generating suffering.  Likewise, it is a
                        great art to discern the difference between
                        actuality and concept.  The conceptual filters
                        through which we think about everything are so
                        ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                        to mistake them for actuality.  No separate,
                        independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                        apparently, in the story."


                        Your presence is a nice addition here.

                        cheers,
                        Freyja 


                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                        <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                        > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                        >
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                        > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                        > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                        > > psychic experiences are genuine.  Do you
                        > > think that they mean anything other than
                        > > what the basic human senses provide?
                        >
                        > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                        > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                        > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                        mind.
                        >
                        > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                        > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                        these
                        > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                        much
                        > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                        > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                        > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                        Theory
                        > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                        > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                        > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                        means
                        > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                        of
                        > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                        >
                        > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                        >
                        > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                        > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                        > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                        > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                        > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                        > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                        > priority interrupts.


                        > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                        which
                        > I
                        > > assure my
                        > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > That is interesting how you put that.
                        > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                        > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                        > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                        > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                        > > It is always interesting to me how we
                        > > interpret other's reactions.
                        >
                        > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                        > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                        ideas
                        > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                        > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                        mystical
                        > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                        > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                        > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                        said, "The
                        > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                        opposite
                        > screams for acknowledgement."
                        >
                        > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                        > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                        > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                        Easter
                        > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                        speaking
                        > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                        > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                        Alfred
                        > > North
                        > > > Whitehead:
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                        > > satisfied
                        > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                        > > cherishes the
                        > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                        Skeptics
                        > > and
                        > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                        > the
                        > > leading
                        > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                        is
                        > > barred.
                        > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                        adventure.
                        > > The
                        > > > Universe is vast."
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > I would love to hear more about why this
                        > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                        > > to you?
                        > >
                        > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                        > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                        > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                        new
                        > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                        > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                        > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                        then
                        > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                        extension
                        > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                        > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                        > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                        hear
                        > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                        > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                        > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                        have
                        > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > Jim



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                      • Sandy
                        Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I think this is going to be a great list to be part of. Hugs, Sandy
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I
                          think this is going to be a great list to be part of.

                          Hugs,

                          Sandy
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