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  • texasbg2000
    ... gallery ... Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years ago when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and then New
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 28, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > bobby: your so inspiring...a painter
      > > > and a yogi.
      > >
      > > Thanks Devi. Here is the advice. Keep meditatiing and keep
      > > painting. If the universed wants you to get better you will.
      > >
      > > Love
      > > Bobby G.
      >
      > thanks bobby, thats good advice and i tell myself the same thing
      > quite often...like i said i really need to take some lessons and i
      > have been feeling like that for a long time, and last month, the
      > universe provided me with jeanette la cru, she's becoming a popular
      > painter here in norther california, who gave a free demo at a
      gallery
      > around here,,i stood there for about two hours just watching her
      > paint..(i was the only one)..hey are you interested in putting some
      > of your work in a prestigous gallery in a resort and spa town here?
      > i'd love to represent you in california. how about it? smiles

      Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years ago
      when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
      then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.

      Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there where
      you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
      Bobby G.
    • devianandi
      ... ago ... devi: http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/ this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take a look and see if you compare..some
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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        >
        > Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years
        ago
        > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
        > then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.
        >
        > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there where
        > you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
        > Bobby G.

        devi:

        http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/

        this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take a
        look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem *generic*,
        in other words they look like they could be california
        scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
        studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
        sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
        thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
        painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't get
        it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
        selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
        have any 9x12s?
      • texasbg2000
        ... where ... a ... *generic*, ... get ... Hi Devi: Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Northern Cal sounds great. I was off to visit Oregon Four years
          > ago
          > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
          > > then New Mexico. so years later I still have that to do.
          > >
          > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
          where
          > > you are? I still have them all, I never sell anything.
          > > Bobby G.
          >
          > devi:
          >
          > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
          >
          > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
          a
          > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
          *generic*,
          > in other words they look like they could be california
          > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
          > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
          > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
          > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
          > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
          get
          > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
          > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
          > have any 9x12s?

          Hi Devi:

          Thank you for looking into that and getting the link.

          It is not that I never sell but I seldom do. I do mostly commissions
          and the paintings that I post here are just for myself. I have
          gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
          gallery would be good. Things change you know and life is long. It
          is good to take new directions sometimes. Perhaps that gallery will
          want my work and I will move there for the rest of life. Who knows?

          In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

          And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
          frames but I am not good at making them.

          And dozens of small pieces.

          And large ones. I will past a large on in the photos section from
          Arches.

          Thanks again for your interest.

          Love,
          Bobby G.
        • Jim Clark
          Hello group, As your newest addition to this society, I don t know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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            Hello group,

             

            As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about you, but just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall attempt to do so.

             

            I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular attendee of a Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the University of Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory sentence as a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my interests to other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce, Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga, studied as many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my little mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know that they are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.

             

            I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles, California.

             

            I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of madness and “folly”. I continue to strive for enough stability to be meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas. Tolerance of everyone else’s point of view is the means by which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

             

            My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North Whitehead:

            “The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the leading dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is barred. This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The Universe is vast.”

             

            I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your ideas and experiences.
             
            Jim
             -----Original Message-----
            From: texasbg2000 [mailto:Bigbobgraham@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 5:58 PM
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Northern Cal sounds great.  I was off to visit Oregon Four years
            > ago
            > > when I was halted by the beauty of Moab Utah and then Wyoming and
            > > then New Mexico.  so years later I still have that to do. 
            > >
            > > Do You think those paintings of the west would go over there
            where
            > > you are?  I still have them all, I never sell anything.
            > > Bobby G.
            >
            > devi:
            >
            > http://www.leeyoungmangalleries.com/
            >
            > this is one of the more prestigous galleries around here.maybe take
            a
            > look and see if you compare..some of your landscapes seem
            *generic*,
            > in other words they look like they could be california
            > scenerey...thats a good thing...theres a lady named camille that
            > studied for five years with your teacher henshe...why haven't you
            > sold your paintings? when you paint, do you paint with the
            > thought ..what will the public buy?....i noticed that you have one
            > painiting, is it a mission,?,,it looked very good but i couldn't
            get
            > it enlarged,,theres a woman here gail salituri who makes a fortune
            > selling paintings of missions....are your paintings framed? do you
            > have any 9x12s?

            Hi Devi:

            Thank you for looking into that and getting the link. 

            It is not that I never sell but I seldom do.  I do mostly commissions
            and the paintings that I post here are just for myself.  I have
            gravitated more towards the painting for myself so much now that a
            gallery would be good.  Things change you know and life is long.  It
            is good to take new directions sometimes.  Perhaps that gallery will
            want my work and I will move there for the rest of life.  Who knows?

            In fact my definition of enlightenment is knowing everything is new.

            And yes I have lots of framed pieces. I made most of them. I like
            frames but I am not good at making them. 

            And dozens of small pieces.

            And large ones.  I will past a large on in the photos section from
            Arches.

            Thanks again for your interest.

            Love,
            Bobby G.










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          • medit8ionsociety
            Dear Jim, I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it s A quality. Actually,
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 29, 2003
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              Dear Jim,
              I really enjoyed your intro, and appreciate all you so eloquently
              shared. The quote by Whitehead is new to me, and it's "A" quality.
              Actually, although it's very "deep", it also made me smile as I
              witnessed it bringing thoughts similar to "Tell it like it is
              brother!" to mind. Anyway, I hope this is just the start of an ongoing
              mutual exploration of consciousness evolution, or some similar
              adjective. I'm glad you're here. Welcome.
              Peace and blessings,
              Bob

              "Jim Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
              > Hello group,
              >
              >
              >
              > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
              you, but
              > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
              attempt to do
              > so.
              >
              >
              >
              > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
              attendee of a
              > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
              University of
              > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible via an
              > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
              sentence as
              > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that period I
              > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially Alan
              > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
              interests to
              > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
              > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
              > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
              studied as
              > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
              little
              > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
              that they
              > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
              >
              >
              >
              > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los Angeles,
              > California.
              >
              >
              >
              > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to assure
              > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my share of
              > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
              > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new ideas.
              > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
              assure my
              > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
              >
              >
              >
              > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred North
              > Whitehead:
              >
              > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-satisfied
              > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history cherishes the
              > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics and
              > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
              leading
              > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
              barred.
              > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure. The
              > Universe is vast."
              >
              >
              >
              > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
              ideas and
              > experiences.
              >
              > Jim
              >
            • carolina112900
              ... Hello Jim, I enjoyed reading your introduction and glad you shared some of your story. ... you, but ... attempt to do ... attendee of a ... University of
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark"
                <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                > Hello group,
                >

                Hello Jim,

                I enjoyed reading your introduction
                and glad you shared some of your
                story.

                >
                >
                > As your newest addition to this society, I don't know much about
                you, but
                > just in case it is appropriate that I introduce myself I shall
                attempt to do
                > so.
                >
                >
                >
                > I was born in 1948, grew up in Oklahoma City, a fairly regular
                attendee of a
                > Southern Baptist Church until I went away to college at the
                University of
                > Texas at Austin as a Math Major. My attendance was made possible
                via an
                > NROTC scholarship; thus, after graduating I served my obligatory
                sentence as
                > a Naval Officer, including two tours in Viet Nam. During that
                period I
                > became a fan of the writings of a various mystics, most especially
                Alan
                > Watts. I spent my last tour in San Diego where I broadened my
                interests to
                > other writers, including Lawrence LeShan, Jane Roberts, Edgar Cayce,
                > Ouspenski, etc. I attended as many lectures and classes on psychic
                > phenomenon and similar topics as I could; I also took up Yoga,
                studied as
                > many religions, philosophies, and practiced as many exercises as my
                little
                > mind could endure. I have had enough psychic experiences to know
                that they
                > are genuine, and believe strongly in the value of meditation.
                >


                Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                think that they mean anything other than
                what the basic human senses provide?

                What do you feel is the value of meditation?


                >
                >
                > I am currently a Senior Software Engineer living alone in Los
                Angeles,
                > California.
                >
                >
                >
                > I have attempted through the years to be self-critical so as to
                assure
                > steady, balanced, growth, yet have succeeded in experiencing my
                share of
                > madness and "folly". I continue to strive for enough stability to be
                > meaningful, without losing the ability to explore interesting new
                ideas.

                > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which I
                assure my
                > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                >

                That is interesting how you put that.
                And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                off as a result of your tolerance?
                How do you know they are pissed off?
                It is always interesting to me how we
                interpret other's reactions.



                >
                >
                > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
                North
                > Whitehead:
                >
                > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                satisfied
                > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                cherishes the
                > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
                and
                > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are the
                leading
                > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
                barred.
                > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
                The
                > Universe is vast."
                >

                I would love to hear more about why this
                is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                to you?

                Thank you and welcome, Jim

                blessings,

                Freyja


                >
                >
                > I look forward to hearing from those of you willing to share your
                ideas and
                > experiences.
                >
                > Jim
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
              • Swami-G
                ... which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off. SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ? this is an interesting
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
                  Clark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                  > Hello group,
                  >

                  > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                  which I assure my continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.

                  SG: why do you see this as an ability to piss everyone off ?

                  this is an interesting statement .....

                  Om in love
                • jimedclark
                  Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome. ... Can you talk more about your knowledge that ... Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                    Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.

                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                    <freyjartist@a...> wrote:

                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                    Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                    > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                    > think that they mean anything other than
                    > what the basic human senses provide?

                    Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                    assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                    regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my mind.

                    Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                    readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of these
                    events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a much
                    bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                    our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                    pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New Theory
                    of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                    among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                    example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as means
                    by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal of
                    the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:

                    > What do you feel is the value of meditation?

                    Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                    us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                    actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                    mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                    engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                    our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                    priority interrupts.


                    > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by which
                    I
                    > assure my
                    > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                    > >
                    >
                    > That is interesting how you put that.
                    > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                    > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                    > off as a result of your tolerance?
                    > How do you know they are pissed off?
                    > It is always interesting to me how we
                    > interpret other's reactions.

                    I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                    many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my ideas
                    to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                    scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                    for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                    who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                    and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo said, "The
                    more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its opposite
                    screams for acknowledgement."

                    What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                    group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                    those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the Easter
                    bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games speaking
                    loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                    > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher Alfred
                    > North
                    > > Whitehead:
                    > >
                    > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                    > satisfied
                    > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                    > cherishes the
                    > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge. Skeptics
                    > and
                    > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                    the
                    > leading
                    > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty is
                    > barred.
                    > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic adventure.
                    > The
                    > > Universe is vast."
                    > >
                    >
                    > I would love to hear more about why this
                    > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                    > to you?
                    >
                    For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                    themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                    idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find new
                    paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                    may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                    events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They then
                    insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an extension
                    of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                    it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                    matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I hear
                    the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                    skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                    it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I have
                    no doubt that this view is reciprocated.

                    Best regards,

                    Jim
                  • Swami-G
                    ... carolina112900 ... Clark ... senses. I ... with ... mind. ... my ... these ... much ... that ... LeShann ... New Theory ... common ... Masters, for
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 30, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      "jimedclark" <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                      > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                      >
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      "carolina112900"
                      > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
                      Clark" >
                      > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                      > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                      > > think that they mean anything other than
                      > > what the basic human senses provide?
                      >
                      > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five
                      senses. I
                      > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be
                      with
                      > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                      mind.
                      >
                      > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to
                      my
                      > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                      these
                      > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                      much
                      > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and
                      that
                      > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence
                      LeShann
                      > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a
                      New Theory
                      > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly
                      common
                      > among students who performed mental work under Zen
                      Masters, for
                      > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects"
                      as means
                      > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important
                      goal of
                      > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                      >
                      > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                      >
                      > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to
                      bring
                      > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person
                      whose
                      > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather
                      than on
                      > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the
                      software
                      > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                      > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and
                      low
                      > priority interrupts.
                      >
                      >
                      > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                      which
                      > I
                      > > assure my
                      > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > That is interesting how you put that.
                      > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                      > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                      > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                      > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                      > > It is always interesting to me how we
                      > > interpret other's reactions.
                      >
                      > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                      > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep
                      my ideas
                      > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                      > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too mystical
                      > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with
                      those
                      > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of
                      others,
                      > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                      said, "The
                      > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                      opposite
                      > screams for acknowledgement."
                      >
                      > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on
                      which
                      > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me
                      with
                      > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in
                      the Easter
                      > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play
                      head-games speaking
                      > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                      >
                      > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                      Alfred
                      > > North
                      > > > Whitehead:
                      > > >
                      > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the
                      self-
                      > > satisfied
                      > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                      > > cherishes the
                      > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                      Skeptics
                      > > and
                      > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics
                      are
                      > the
                      > > leading
                      > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental
                      novelty is
                      > > barred.
                      > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                      adventure.
                      > > The
                      > > > Universe is vast."
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I would love to hear more about why this
                      > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                      > > to you?
                      > >
                      > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                      > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to
                      the
                      > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                      new
                      > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities;
                      they
                      > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                      > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                      then
                      > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                      extension
                      > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no
                      circumstances is
                      > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                      > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                      hear
                      > the same old responses I used to use when I was a
                      well-trained
                      > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal
                      somewhere,
                      > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                      have
                      > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Jim


                      SG: wherever your attention is pointing that is the avenue
                      open for exploration..... from that point of openness
                      the creative mind expands.......

                      or the avenue willing to be heard as it is the point of
                      referance for that conditional self image ........ if it holds
                      ones self image in place then it is the *right* one......

                      sometimes one exchanges one set of conditioned
                      response for another......

                      eventually they begin to crumble in the light of day and
                      a whole new paradigm emerges .......

                      as long as revolving phenomena is the focal point
                      then there is no stable point of referance other than the
                      current set of belief's and one is apt
                      to do this motion of standing on a roller board
                      identity while juggling the latest mental conceptulization...

                      meditation stops the frenetic action..... the juggling
                      stops....... one steps off the board and begins to
                      see what has always been right here ...... it comes into
                      focus and clarity now that the attention isn't being
                      diverted to image balance or mental jugglings......

                      what is left ? just walking and enjoying the freedom
                      of being unencumbered by the juggling act ......
                    • carolina112900
                      Jim, Thank you for taking the time to expand on these topics. We all have a story/stories :-) As Joan Tollifson wrote, Stories make apparent sense out of what
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
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                        Jim,

                        Thank you for taking the time
                        to expand on these topics.

                        We all have a story/stories :-)

                        As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                        "Stories make apparent sense out of
                        what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                        They give meaning and importance to the
                        fiction of myself and all that I identify
                        with: my family, my civilization, my
                        ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                        sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                        gender, my generation. Stories are entertaining.
                        God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                        lost and found.

                        Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                        limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                        them. Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                        up, reveal truth or conceal it. The same story
                        can serve different functions at different moments.
                        It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                        different functions at different moments. It's
                        a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                        open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                        lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                        generating suffering. Likewise, it is a
                        great art to discern the difference between
                        actuality and concept. The conceptual filters
                        through which we think about everything are so
                        ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                        to mistake them for actuality. No separate,
                        independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                        apparently, in the story."


                        Your presence is a nice addition here.

                        cheers,
                        Freyja


                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                        <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                        > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                        >
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                        > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                        > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                        > > psychic experiences are genuine. Do you
                        > > think that they mean anything other than
                        > > what the basic human senses provide?
                        >
                        > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                        > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                        > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                        mind.
                        >
                        > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                        > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                        these
                        > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                        much
                        > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                        > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                        > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                        Theory
                        > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                        > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                        > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                        means
                        > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                        of
                        > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                        >
                        > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                        >
                        > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                        > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                        > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                        > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                        > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                        > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                        > priority interrupts.
                        >
                        >
                        > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                        which
                        > I
                        > > assure my
                        > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > That is interesting how you put that.
                        > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                        > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                        > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                        > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                        > > It is always interesting to me how we
                        > > interpret other's reactions.
                        >
                        > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                        > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                        ideas
                        > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                        > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                        mystical
                        > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                        > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                        > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                        said, "The
                        > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                        opposite
                        > screams for acknowledgement."
                        >
                        > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                        > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                        > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                        Easter
                        > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                        speaking
                        > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."
                        >
                        > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                        Alfred
                        > > North
                        > > > Whitehead:
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                        > > satisfied
                        > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                        > > cherishes the
                        > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                        Skeptics
                        > > and
                        > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                        > the
                        > > leading
                        > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                        is
                        > > barred.
                        > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                        adventure.
                        > > The
                        > > > Universe is vast."
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > I would love to hear more about why this
                        > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                        > > to you?
                        > >
                        > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                        > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                        > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                        new
                        > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                        > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                        > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                        then
                        > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                        extension
                        > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                        > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                        > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                        hear
                        > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                        > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                        > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                        have
                        > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > Jim
                      • Jim Clark
                        Freyja, Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I ve heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me. Jim ... From:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 31, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Freyja,
                           
                          Thanks. I am hoping to hear stories from others here. I've heard many from others over the years and they never cease to fascinate me.
                           
                          Jim
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: carolina112900 [mailto:freyjartist@...]
                          Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:22 AM
                          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Picture

                          Jim,

                          Thank you for taking the time
                          to expand on these topics.

                          We all have a story/stories :-)

                          As Joan Tollifson wrote,

                          "Stories make apparent sense out of
                          what would otherwise be incomprehensible.
                          They give meaning and importance to the
                          fiction of myself and all that I identify
                          with: my family, my civilization, my
                          ethnic group, my political leanings, my
                          sexual orientation, my subculture, my
                          gender, my generation.  Stories are entertaining.
                          God apparently enjoys drama, play, hide and seek,
                          lost and found.

                          Sometimes a story helps to expose and dissolve
                          limitations; sometimes it creates and reinforces
                          them.  Stories can lull us to sleep or wake us
                          up, reveal truth or conceal it.   The same story
                          can serve different functions at different moments.
                          It's a great art to discern when a story can serve
                          different functions at different moments.  It's
                          a great art to discern when a story is breaking
                          open the heart and waking us up, and when it is
                          lulling us to sleep, perpetuating illusion and
                          generating suffering.  Likewise, it is a
                          great art to discern the difference between
                          actuality and concept.  The conceptual filters
                          through which we think about everything are so
                          ubiquitous and so seemingly real that it's easy
                          to mistake them for actuality.  No separate,
                          independent, solid thing really exists, except,
                          apparently, in the story."


                          Your presence is a nice addition here.

                          cheers,
                          Freyja 


                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jimedclark"
                          <jclark310@c...> wrote:
                          > Bob, Freyja, and Om; thanks for the welcome.
                          >
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "carolina112900"
                          > <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Clark" >
                          > Can you talk more about your knowledge that
                          > > psychic experiences are genuine.  Do you
                          > > think that they mean anything other than
                          > > what the basic human senses provide?
                          >
                          > Psychic experiences definitely provide more than the five senses. I
                          > assure you that I was as skeptical as I could reasonably be with
                          > regard to these events, but in time there was no question in my
                          mind.
                          >
                          > Yet, I feel compelled to add, that in my view (in part thanks to my
                          > readings), I have come to the conclusion that the importance of
                          these
                          > events is essentially to awaken us to the fact that we live in a
                          much
                          > bigger universe than we are inclined to realize otherwise, and that
                          > our potential for growth is likewise grander. Lawrence LeShann
                          > pointed out in "Mediums, Mystics, and Physicists: Toward a New
                          Theory
                          > of the Paranormal" that psychic manifestations were fairly common
                          > among students who performed mental work under Zen Masters, for
                          > example. The masters typically regarded these "side effects" as
                          means
                          > by which our lower selves distract us from the more important goal
                          of
                          > the meditation exercises. This brings me to the next question:
                          >
                          > > What do you feel is the value of meditation?
                          >
                          > Meditation serves many purposes, not the least of which is to bring
                          > us into greater "being", that is, to become more a person whose
                          > actions are based on our personal conscious choices rather than on
                          > mechanical programming. Pardon me if I sound like the software
                          > engineer I am, but I think of it as a means of strengthening
                          > our "main routines" and minimizing negative imagination and low
                          > priority interrupts.


                          > > > Tolerance of everyone else's point of view is the means by
                          which
                          > I
                          > > assure my
                          > > > continued ability to piss virtually everyone off.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > That is interesting how you put that.
                          > > And is a good discussion starter...tolerance.
                          > > Can you say more about how you piss everyone
                          > > off as a result of your tolerance?
                          > > How do you know they are pissed off?
                          > > It is always interesting to me how we
                          > > interpret other's reactions.
                          >
                          > I was partly just trying to be funny. Hopefully, I don't make that
                          > many people angry anymore, since I now generally try to keep my
                          ideas
                          > to myself. What I meant by that is basically I am usually too
                          > scientific and analytical for the "true believers", and too
                          mystical
                          > for the scientists. My negative experiences were usually with those
                          > who wanted me to be open to their ideas to the exclusion of others,
                          > and I am cautious about buying into that. As Sri Aurubindo
                          said, "The
                          > more you insist on the truth of an assertion the louder its
                          opposite
                          > screams for acknowledgement."
                          >
                          > What signs do they give of negative feelings? It depends on which
                          > group I piss off: skeptics and pseudo-scientists compare me with
                          > those who would buy from snake-oil salesmen, or believe in the
                          Easter
                          > bunny, etc. while fundamentalists sometimes play head-games
                          speaking
                          > loudly against those who would dare question "God's Word."

                          > > > My favorite quote is by the Mathematician and Philosopher
                          Alfred
                          > > North
                          > > > Whitehead:
                          > > >
                          > > > "The Universe is vast. Nothing is more curious than the self-
                          > > satisfied
                          > > > dogmatism with which mankind at each period of its history
                          > > cherishes the
                          > > > delusion of the finality of existing modes of knowledge.
                          Skeptics
                          > > and
                          > > > believers are alike. At this moment scientists and skeptics are
                          > the
                          > > leading
                          > > > dogmatists. Advance in detail is admitted; fundamental novelty
                          is
                          > > barred.
                          > > > This dogmatic common sense is the death of philosophic
                          adventure.
                          > > The
                          > > > Universe is vast."
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > I would love to hear more about why this
                          > > is your favorite quote....what does it mean
                          > > to you?
                          > >
                          > For example, I've spoken to many people lately who identify
                          > themselves with "true scientific" thinking. They may be open to the
                          > idea that science has a long way to go, that we will forever find
                          new
                          > paradigms and must always be willing to explore possibilities; they
                          > may even accept the possibility that so-called the "paranormal"
                          > events such as precognition or telepathy do in fact occur. They
                          then
                          > insist, however, that the paranormal can be explained as an
                          extension
                          > of the known senses and/or physical laws, under no circumstances is
                          > it possible that spirits exist, or that the universe is "aware". No
                          > matter how much evidence, personal testimony, etc. I present, I
                          hear
                          > the same old responses I used to use when I was a well-trained
                          > skeptic. Unless it is written up in a scientific journal somewhere,
                          > it didn't happen. In my view, these people live in caves, and I
                          have
                          > no doubt that this view is reciprocated.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Jim



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                        • Sandy
                          Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I think this is going to be a great list to be part of. Hugs, Sandy
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 5, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Welcome Jim, I am new to the list as well, and also live in So. CA. I
                            think this is going to be a great list to be part of.

                            Hugs,

                            Sandy
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.