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  • maria luisa
    Hello all, this is part of an exchange this morning, and as in other occasions, i think it may be shared. Q: i know this must be done alone anyhow. ***No, not
    Message 1 of 105 , Sep 27, 2003
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      Hello all,
      this is part of an exchange this morning, and as in other occasions,
      i think it may be shared.

      Q: i know this must be done alone anyhow.

      ***No, not alone. We definitely need help. and that's what we are
      all in this world for, to help each other in realizing the truth of
      existence. ( ... ) situations happen that make us mature and go
      deeper into the reality of ourselves. These are the things of life.
      But there are people who have had experiences, not only enlightened
      ones, but experienced old men and women, wisemen, sages, great
      thinkers of history, and those, finally, that have realized the
      reality of no form, that from which all arises. These experiences
      give us understandings that help us dealing the apparent cruelties
      and unjustices of this life, giving us solace. We cannot do it
      alone, we need help. Very few have done it alone as in the case of
      Ramana Maharshi, and even then he spent 17 years afterwards in the
      caves of Tiruvannamalai reading scriptures and meditating, so that
      when he began to talk, he had the necessary intellectual background
      to correspond to the learnt ones.

      Q: but if it's alright i would like to ask more questions
      even though my mind will never really understand.

      ***Your mind will understand, because that is what mind is made for
      and of, understanding. What mind cannot do is to discover IT, but in
      the contrary, IT will be discovered to mind. Mind cannot wrasp IT,
      but IT will be revealed to mind. Mind is at the same time the wall
      that covers IT and the tool that will destroy the wall.


      > AWAKENING MAKES THE PERSON
      > UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NO PERSON AT ALL.
      >
      > IT'S QUITE PARADOXICAL, ISN'T IT?

      Q: i can imagine it mentally as once you know you are
      awareness that thoughts just come up and pass and you
      no longer take them as an identity but don't then see
      why there's still so much work to be done clearing the
      psyche as aziz says.

      ***Because there may remain <tendencies> in the psyche. These are
      tendencies of the thinking process that just work alone, in the sub
      conscience, and we must be very aware for not letting them to remain
      installed within the process of thought. If we observe this, the
      tendencies will fall one by one, but this requires a prepared mind
      and a practice to be done, first with effort, and afterwards
      automatically (this is when definitive enlightenment happens). All
      this may happen before or after realization, but once you have
      realized the truth, it is very easy to be done. The practice becomes
      easier after enlightenment. (Did you know this?) But let me say that
      this is not always the case, as i already told you, each case is
      different.

      Q: seems you're back in time and
      identity.

      ***Whenever there is a notion of me as a person or an identity or as
      the seer, there is time and space and identity, there is memory
      which is part of mind. Mind is total, general, universal...identity
      is part of it. Mind is the clay and identity is the portion
      necessary for making a pot. So for the person to act as an
      individual, there must be a sense of identity.

      Q: i guess you're still in both 'worlds'

      ***That's exactly what there is not, two worlds. There are only
      projections and only one reality. We may get caught in a projection
      but this doesn't mean this projection is the only thing, it is part
      of the clay.

      Q: why
      can't you just attach to new thoughts if you see that
      all are equally valid/invalid?

      ***It isn't that you attach to the thoughts. You just use the
      intellect, discernment, feelings, everything that arises from you.
      You may get immersed in the feelings or not, it depends. And you may
      observe how these feelings arose so you do not get trapped on them.
      Once you understand how the mind works, then you may use the mind,
      and not be used by it. This is not easy, i may confess, but a work
      to be done very accurately once one discovers oneself trapped in the
      thinking process again. When this process stops, then this is said
      that the person is fully realized. (Although in this case the person
      is seen by the realizer as another thought, not as a real and
      permanent thing)

      Q: must be an ongoing
      process that deepens..how has it been for you?

      ***When i realized that "I exist from ever and for ever and that
      everything arises from me", it was in a very clear, punctual and
      evident way. This understanding resulted from being merged in pure
      Consciousness. This was a thought as a result. It is not like being
      in Nirvikalpa Samadhi and one as an identity being there. No, there
      is only samadhi. Then mind arises again (immediately or not, in my
      case it was immediately - i had things to do as taking my kids to
      school-hahahaha), but impacted by the truth that Consciousness is
      what you are, you as part of it. And YOU as IT. Pure awareness of
      consciousness is previous and resulting, both...but pure
      Consciousness is what there is all the time, wether an individual is
      aware of it or not.
      The clay is always there. Portions of it generate the different
      forms and functions. Once identified with one of this forms (the
      individual), there is the forgetfulness of the reality that clay is
      all there is. But once it is realized, the pot knows the substance
      of which it is made, and never forgets it again. This pot knows that
      it has a function to play, and once this function has no more
      meaning, it will be disolved in pure clay again. But it is always
      clay.

      Q: (About whom to trust, a guru?)

      ***The thing is that we look for models, because that is how mind
      works, by models, structures, looking for stability. But real
      stabilty of mind is in the flux, not in the unmovable, because the
      unmovable is not mind, the unmovable is the clay in stillness, and
      the individual is the clay in motion, in construction and de-
      construction.
      There are teachers, and different ways of teaching, but only one
      thing being taught. One.


      Q: that samadhi you had..is that the awareness without
      form? so there was just awareness of awareness, no
      awareness of anything else? right?

      ***Yes

      Q: so what's your
      state after you come out of that?

      ***It could be any state. All the states arise from that
      Consciousness-awareness. But Awareness is always there. After
      Nirvikalpa you realize this. Before Nirvikalpa you "imagine' this.

      Q: is that awareness
      now always with you?

      ***And with you, although you don't realize it. It is very simple,
      very, very simple. You are aware, there is awareness, don't you see
      it? It is here and now. Just awareness. There's a you aware of
      asking questions. There's a you aware of my responses. There's a you
      and you are aware of it. So what is there? Just awareness. If you
      aren't aware of something, this does not exist. All that exists is
      because you are aware of it. Realize this. ------awarenes of the
      individual, awareness of the processes, awareness of awareness---
      what does it matter? All there is is consciousness-awareness.

      Q: does it fade like when you're
      thinking, writing, reading, driving a car?

      *** No, it fades when thoughts come and i get caught in the process,
      in the pre-conceptions, in the conditionings of this should be and
      this shouldn't be, in the fear and doubt. Whenever i don't see that
      what are arising are the conditionings, then i get trapped. Then
      magically, pain appears (as when you cut your finger and pain
      appears as an alert for you to heal it, otherwise it could get
      infected). So pain is a warning that tells you that conditionings
      are begining the battle in their intention to win the territory
      again. But an awakened mind sees this as it appears, because pain is
      just that, and alert signal. This is why it is said that ego takes
      its raise, but an enlightened person (i am not sure i like this
      _expression) notes this and puts ego in its place again, as an
      instrument and not as a master. Ego seen in this case as all the
      conditionings.

      Q: is peace always there?

      ***You may direct your attention to any thing, and peace is there.
      There may be awareness of any thing, it doesn't matter, and peace is
      there. The thing is that peace is not noted when attention gets
      trapped in the arisings of fear and doubt generated by the mental
      conditionings. Over the field of peace, of peaceful awareness,
      thoughts arise, thoughts are sustained and thoughts return merging
      in it. Whenever awareness is directed to these thoughts in a
      conditioned manner, these thoughts stay more time that the
      necessary, producing apparent disturbances over the peaceful field
      that is their platform, their base, their substartum, that from
      which they are done, the clay. This is why it is said that world is
      an ilusion, because world is what we see, by the means of thought,
      and thought arise from "I", the field of peace. So the world arise
      producing apparent existence, and it disappears again in me.

      Q: if consciousness is just pure
      awareness where does the peace, love and joy come
      from?

      ***Peace, love and joy is awareness undisturbed by the thinking
      process of conditionings. To remain in peace, love and joy, is to
      not get deluded by the arisings as if they were so important, so
      real, i mean, peace is to see things as they are, thoughts as they
      are, conditionings as they are, that's peace. Not-peace is to get
      caught in them, is to not see the forest because attention is put on
      the trees. Love is the natural expression of this peace, of this
      clear seeing, and joy is the result.

      Q: you still cry but is the sadness as deep as before?

      ***Sadness is sadness. As it comes, it stays the necessary time and
      then it goes. All these happen over the field of peace whether i am
      aware of it at the moment or not. It is not an ill sadness, healthy
      sadness i may say, a natural sadness, a temporary sadness as
      everything else is, temporary. All the happenings are temporary and
      to know this gives us solace.

      Q: or
      do you have that background that informs you that it's
      only this dreamworld?

      ***To think of the world, our world, as a dream, is not so
      productive, because even us are part of this dream. So let's live
      the dream, but being aware of it's temporary characteristic.

      Q: is there ever fear?

      ***Yes, there are natural fears. A mother fears for her children so
      along as she plays the roll of a mother. A body fears for its
      possible damage in order to maintain life. Fear is another alarm
      sistem. But when we get caught in fear not knowing the real reasons
      why fear arises, or when fear is a product of fearing the loss of
      our concepts and beliefs, those that we construct for a figured
      stability within the transient nature of things but intending to
      make this things eternal, it is another issue.

      Q: do you ever
      think about the future?

      ***Of course i do. In this moment i am living in USA beacuse i am
      quite sure that civil war in my country is very, very possible and
      near. This as an example. I have to make plans for living and
      projects for my own sustainance. But as it is said: man proposes,
      God displays. So thinking about the future is a matter of making
      propositions, knowing that things may change as a natural
      characteristic of life. This is to act without being attached to the
      desired results.

      Q: i'd like to meet (mentions a master) but he's in india and i'm
      tied
      up here (...personal...) my life is a
      strange and depressing affair now. i'm trying to cope
      with the situation. i feel i'm running out of time and
      that i'm going to die as ignorant as i was when i came
      into this world.

      ***We came into this world not being ignorant, but being. It was the
      idea of the world that made us feel we are ignorant. There is only
      being, nothing new to acquire necessarily. It's only that in some
      moment we got the idea that there was something to know. Our minds
      got trapped within the conditionings and preconceived ideas and
      ideals. We began to believe things and our hearts began to close,
      trying to be protected from something. So now it is only a matter of
      seeing this and being in peace, accepting things and situations not
      as depressing ones, but as situations. We call them depressing
      because we want things to be different. That's natural, but we must
      wait for the appropriate time to come. Everything changes, all is in
      motion, but "I" am always. I am the substratum, all the rest arises
      from me. I install myself in me, and just observe the different
      plays and "games" i have to play as a person. But "I" am always here
      and now. I am the awareness of it all. This awareness is peace in
      itself. Silence, rest, observing the observer, being that we already
      are, are good practices.


      > WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO BE
      > AWARE THAT THERE IS AWARENESS? ISN'T IT OBVIOUS
      > THAT AWARENESS IS ALL THERE IS? SOME TIMES LIMITED
      > AWARENESS, SOME TIMES EXPANDED AWARENESS, SOME OTHER
      > TIMES AWARENESS OF AWARENESS.

      Q: i don't know. because i'm insane, hypnotized,
      entranced by maya, dull?? because we don't separate
      awareness from everything else?

      ***How can you do that? You are aware of everything else, and this
      is why everything else exists. There is no wrong nor right in that.
      It just is. But you are also aware of the awareness of it. That's it.


      Q: i'm aware that there is awareness but not to the
      degree necessary to see that awareness is all there
      is. working on it

      ***What else can there be beside or apart from awareness? beside
      Consciousness? What else can there be beside That you are? If you
      are not, anything is. We cannot deny existence, it is contradictory.
      And that's all. No fantasies, but Existence, Pure, Bright, Self
      effulgent. That's IT. The rest are just things that arise because
      awarenes is directed towards them, including me as a person. No
      reason for suffering because of this. No reason for suffering. When
      we see that the reasons are just as emergent from thought as all the
      rest, they just fade.


      Love,
      maria luisa
    • Era
      ... Nina, you just made my day smiles
      Message 105 of 105 , Oct 5, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
        > > > When the inspiration fails, it is no worse than
        > > > a sandcastle being washed away by the beach tide.
        > > > Tomorrow, I build another sandcastle.
        > > >
        > > > The thing is, I do know that at any time, I could
        > > > let go of the sandcastle building... but why?
        > > > Maybe you know why and would share the why...
        > >
        > > SG: one perhaps builds sandcastles until there is no longer
        > > an attachment to building and creating a structured form ......
        > > Inspirations may be wrapped up in sandcastles .....
        > >
        > > perhaps at that point one simply creates them out of the joy of
        > > the moment..... not expecting them to last but simply for the
        > > beauty and joy of spontaneous art and motion which flows from
        > > the Bliss of Being here now in this place in this moment .......
        > > it needs not carry behind it some representation or hidden
        > > meaning it simply is as it is Beautiful and sacred within it's own
        > > right.......
        > >
        > > then as in all things (this creation of the moment) simply falls
        > > away so that another image may take its place
        > >
        > > First one goes beyond the transient unfolding play before it is
        > > fully understood and appreciated for what it is ....... then one
        > > steps back into the lila and play simply Enjoying that lila as an
        > > expression of Infinite Love in motion........
        > > Formless or Form it is the same Essense
        > > minus the distinguishing factors .....
        >
        > > SG: hahahahaha perhaps so .... everything proceeds from
        > > Source and returns to Source in some manner......
        > >
        > >
        > > Infinite Love
        >
        > 1. There are pictures of this sandcastle building: faded square
        > photographs with radiused corners, the blues and greens and sand
        > colors of photographs from that time, the reds always slightly
        > pungent, as if the pigment were wired and erratic, unsure of its
        > place in the film. There we are, squatting in the sand: my blond-
        > haired mother, sitting aside, arm around the barrel-chest of the
        > small grey dog; my father and a very small I sitting together,
        > scraping sand into forms. What the photograph barely hints at is the
        > joy of building that sandcastle, part enjoyment of the sand and
        > water, part thrill and satisfaction of building it with my father.
        > What the photograph doesn't contain is what came later. After
        > building it, I felt so much happiness and pride; we played in the
        > water, and I kept looking back to see that sandcastle sitting before
        > the waves. Then the two boys came, stepping into the sandcastle,
        > crushing it. I cried salt tears to the sea, inconsolable, and unable
        > to explain or even understand that the greatest loss was not the
        > sandcastle, but what the sandcastle represented.
        >
        > 2. We like to go early to the beach, before the beach patrol comes on
        > line, and let our dogs run off leash. One morning, on the way back,
        > we are walking close to the dunes, past a sandcastle left above the
        > tide line. One of the dogs stalks the sandcastle, circling it,
        > sniffing it carefully, as if the castle might move. She notes the
        > hollow center of the castle, and daintily scratches it with one paw,
        > once, twice. Moving within the hollow, she begins to dig, throwing
        > large arcs of sand beneath and behind her, very efficiently deepening
        > the hollow. Sufficiently inspired, she leaps from the castle, and
        > runs circles on the beach. She is amazing, lean muscle and arching
        > back, her earth-pounding feet carrying her so close to us on her
        > returns that her breath is heard and wake is felt.
        >
        > 3. After the walk, I remain on the beach after the others return
        > home. The sun is coming up, pink and orange, and the sky is humid and
        > a thick blue-grey. The moon is still out, and a few stars, but are
        > gradually fading in a sky that is approaching their brilliance. I
        > stand within the laps of the waves, and look out to the rocking
        > shrimp boats, and the long, thin horizon beyond. With each receding
        > wave, the water draws sand from beneath the edges of my feet.
        > Eventually, I am balancing on two pyramids beneath my arches. I find
        > that if I am not perfectly balanced through the soles of my feet as
        > these pyramids form, that eventually I must cling to the tops of the
        > pyramids with the muscles of my legs, lest my feet slide from the
        > pyramids. I stand for a long while like this, trying on new pyramids,
        > learning as a matter of course what it is to be perfectly balanced
        > within my soles, and how transparent and effortless that feels,
        > watching the night suns recede as I am warmed by the heat advancing
        > in the eastern sky. At some point, the shrimp boats disappear, and I
        > take that as my cue to leave.
        >
        > Thanks for your letter, SG.
        >
        > Nina


        Nina, you just made my day

        smiles
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