Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

surrendering the ego

Expand Messages
  • satkartar7
    Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction between the knowing subject and the known object. For the
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 30, 2003
      Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths


      Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction between
      the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,
      there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the
      individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated
      without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The
      individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even in
      the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an
      attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of the
      individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by
      knowledge of Brahman.

      The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of
      the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge, constituting
      the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows the
      essential nature of the inward Self.

      Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material
      world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it may
      be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies
      itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from
      attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a
      spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly existence)
      is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released
      Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.

      Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is illusory
      and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not
      unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The phenomenal
      world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The
      phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is
      part of the body of Brahman.

      Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)
      activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).
      These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material
      world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.
      Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality may
      transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is
      seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.

      Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-
      dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita
      Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,
      undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,
      differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,
      undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.
      For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes, and
      since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced
      intuitively, it must be differentiated.

      For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring
      when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the
      unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the
      plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is the
      way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.
    • maria luisa
      ... between ... in ... the ... constituting ... the ... may ... existence) ... illusory ... phenomenal ... may ... and ... the ... When it is said that Maya is
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 31, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
        <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
        > Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths
        >
        >
        > Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction
        between
        > the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,
        > there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the
        > individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated
        > without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The
        > individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even
        in
        > the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an
        > attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of
        the
        > individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by
        > knowledge of Brahman.
        >
        > The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of
        > the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,
        constituting
        > the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows
        the
        > essential nature of the inward Self.
        >
        > Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material
        > world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it
        may
        > be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies
        > itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from
        > attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a
        > spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly
        existence)
        > is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released
        > Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.
        >
        > Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is
        illusory
        > and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not
        > unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The
        phenomenal
        > world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The
        > phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is
        > part of the body of Brahman.
        >
        > Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)
        > activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).
        > These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material
        > world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.
        > Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality
        may
        > transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is
        > seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.
        >
        > Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-
        > dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita
        > Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,
        > undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,
        > differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,
        > undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.
        > For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes,
        and
        > since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced
        > intuitively, it must be differentiated.
        >
        > For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring
        > when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the
        > unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the
        > plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is
        the
        > way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.


        When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its
        temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that
        which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really reffers
        to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all
        that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed, all
        that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs the
        yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is
        permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real source
        and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion. Nothing
        wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the
        points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of
        point of view (for the thinking mind).

        ml
      • satkartar7
        ... yes, so true I wanted to post something within our discussion about viewing the ego in a forgiving light, since I can t put into words what I know about
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 31, 2003
          > > Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths
          > >
          > >
          > > Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction
          > between
          > > the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal Self,
          > > there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For the
          > > individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated
          > > without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The
          > > individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists even
          > in
          > > the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an
          > > attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature of
          > the
          > > individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated by
          > > knowledge of Brahman.
          > >
          > > The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a consciousness of
          > > the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,
          > constituting
          > > the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self knows
          > the
          > > essential nature of the inward Self.
          > >
          > > Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material
          > > world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3) it
          > may
          > > be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self identifies
          > > itself with the material world. The released Self is freed from
          > > attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a
          > > spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly
          > existence)
          > > is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The released
          > > Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.
          > >
          > > Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is
          > illusory
          > > and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not
          > > unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The
          > phenomenal
          > > world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances. The
          > > phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which is
          > > part of the body of Brahman.
          > >
          > > Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva), 2)
          > > activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness, tamas).
          > > These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the material
          > > world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of prakriti.
          > > Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual reality
          > may
          > > transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it is
          > > seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.
          > >
          > > Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified non-
          > > dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's Advaita
          > > Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,
          > > undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,
          > > differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,
          > > undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced intuitively.
          > > For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its attributes,
          > and
          > > since Brahman has attributes which can be known and experienced
          > > intuitively, it must be differentiated.
          > >
          > > For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality, occurring
          > > when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on the
          > > unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is the
          > > plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya is
          > the
          > > way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.
          >
          >
          > When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its
          > temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that
          > which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really reffers
          > to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all
          > that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed, all
          > that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs the
          > yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is
          > permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real source
          > and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion. Nothing
          > wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the
          > points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of
          > point of view (for the thinking mind).
          >
          > ml


          yes, so true

          I wanted to post something within
          our discussion about viewing the ego
          in a forgiving light, since I can't
          put into words what I know about
          the subject as intelligent as you I
          Cut & Pasted the Ramajuna interview..
          I am not sure if it is from Ramana,
          but this is not what I wanted to
          highlight, so I'll come back dear
          Maria Luisa

          love Karta
        • maria luisa
          ... Self, ... the ... even ... of ... by ... consciousness of ... knows ... it ... identifies ... from ... released ... The ... is ... 2) ... tamas). ...
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 31, 2003
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
            <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
            > > > Surrender of the ego...Bede Griffiths
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Ramanuja says that in pure knowledge there is no distinction
            > > between
            > > > the knowing subject and the known object. For the universal
            Self,
            > > > there is no distinction between the knower and the known. For
            the
            > > > individual Self, however, the 'I' or ego cannot be obliterated
            > > > without obliterating the essential nature of the Self. The
            > > > individual Self must have an I-consciousness which persists
            even
            > > in
            > > > the state of ultimate release. The 'I' or ego is not merely an
            > > > attribute of the individual Self, but constitutes the nature
            of
            > > the
            > > > individual Self. Thus, the I-consciousness is not obliterated
            by
            > > > knowledge of Brahman.
            > > >
            > > > The knowing subject is the 'I' or ego, which is a
            consciousness of
            > > > the inward Self. The 'I' or ego is a form of knowledge,
            > > constituting
            > > > the essential nature of the Self. Thus, the released Self
            knows
            > > the
            > > > essential nature of the inward Self.
            > > >
            > > > Atman may take three forms: 1) it may be bound to the material
            > > > world, 2) it may be released from the material world, and 3)
            it
            > > may
            > > > be eternal in its unity with Brahman. The bound Self
            identifies
            > > > itself with the material world. The released Self is freed
            from
            > > > attachment to the material world, and is aware of itself as a
            > > > spiritual reality. Release from samsara (cyclic, worldly
            > > existence)
            > > > is a state of non-difference from the highest Self. The
            released
            > > > Self is aware of the unity of Brahman.
            > > >
            > > > Ramanuja rejects the doctrine that the phenomenal world is
            > > illusory
            > > > and unreal. According to Ramanuja, the phenomenal world is not
            > > > unreal unless it is viewed as distinct from Brahman. The
            > > phenomenal
            > > > world is not simply a realm of false and illusory appearances.
            The
            > > > phenomenal world includes primordial matter (prakriti), which
            is
            > > > part of the body of Brahman.
            > > >
            > > > Prakriti has three qualities (or gunas): 1) clarity (sattva),
            2)
            > > > activity (passion, rajas), and 3) inactivity (darkness,
            tamas).
            > > > These gunas may interact to determine the nature of the
            material
            > > > world. Brahman is the inner Self or spirit (purusha) of
            prakriti.
            > > > Thus, reality is both material and spiritual. Spiritual
            reality
            > > may
            > > > transform material reality. Plurality is not unreal unless it
            is
            > > > seen as replacing the unity of Brahman.
            > > >
            > > > Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita Vedanta (or philosophy of qualified
            non-
            > > > dualism) has some important differences from Shankara's
            Advaita
            > > > Vedanta (or philosophy of non-dualism). For Shankara,
            > > > undifferentiated Brahman is ultimate realty. For Ramanuja,
            > > > differentiated Brahman is ultimate reality. For Shankara,
            > > > undifferentiated Brahman can be known and experienced
            intuitively.
            > > > For Ramanuja, Brahman can only be known through its
            attributes,
            > > and
            > > > since Brahman has attributes which can be known and
            experienced
            > > > intuitively, it must be differentiated.
            > > >
            > > > For Shankara, maya is an illusory appearance of reality,
            occurring
            > > > when the plurality of the phenomenal world is superimposed on
            the
            > > > unity of Brahman. For Ramanuja, however, maya is real and is
            the
            > > > plurality of attributes which are manifested by Brahman. Maya
            is
            > > the
            > > > way in which Brahman is manifested in the phenomenal world.
            > >
            > >
            > > When it is said that Maya is illusion, it is reffered to its
            > > temporary and impermanent characteristic, while Brahman is that
            > > which is eternal, unmoving and permanent. So illusion really
            reffers
            > > to a non-permanent state. Only to understand and accept that all
            > > that is born must die, all that is created will be destroyed,
            all
            > > that implies evolution will have involution, that the yin needs
            the
            > > yang, black needs white. Brahman needs nothing. Since Brahman is
            > > permanent and eternal, it is said that it's Real. The real
            source
            > > and substratum of manifestation called maya or illusion.
            Nothing
            > > wrong nor right with illusion or maya or body or mind. Only the
            > > points of view may keep man bounded or not. So it'a a matter of
            > > point of view (for the thinking mind).
            > >
            > > ml
            >
            >
            > yes, so true
            >
            > I wanted to post something within
            > our discussion about viewing the ego
            > in a forgiving light, since I can't
            > put into words what I know about
            > the subject as intelligent as you I
            > Cut & Pasted the Ramajuna interview..
            > I am not sure if it is from Ramana,
            > but this is not what I wanted to
            > highlight, so I'll come back dear
            > Maria Luisa
            >
            > love Karta

            You have just said it. Forgiveness. That is acceptance, a clear view
            of things as they are, an open mind, not bounded to preconceptions,
            to fear and doubt. Just things as they are. That's forgiveness. And
            not necessarily we need to put words on things, we don't need to
            understand via words. We can understand and see all as it is, just
            in silence, without naming and categoraizing. You have the word:
            forgiving light, very beautiful. Intelligence plays a little roll in
            this. The Heart knows better.

            Yours in the Heart,
            ml
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.