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Re: Capitalizing Consciousness / Bobby

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  • satkartar7
    ... with all do respect, Maria Luisa you sound like Ganga: assuming that, we did not have the experinece of light, but *YOU* did. same answer as to her: go
    Message 1 of 57 , Jul 17, 2003
      > > > > thank you for the answer Bobby, I like
      > > > > the pondering, did you know, that the
      > > > > jewish scholars are still pondering
      > > > > on each word's meaning in their scriptures
      > > > > after 1000s of years
      > > > >
      > > > > hahaha
      > > > >
      > > > > I had difficulty understanding Ramana
      > > > > when he talks about the deep sleep consciousness...
      > > > >
      > > > > someone please help me out with the
      > > > > exact quote
      > > >
      > > > Hi Karta:
      > > >
      > > > > using your distinction of being
      > > > > 'conscious' than one would say in
      > > > > that one is not conscious, but the
      > > > > Consciousness is there
      > > >
      > > > For me it is the matter of subject-object. Consciousness is the
      > > > subject. It cannot be object by its nature. Me, as a person can
      > be
      > > > an object, that is, I can be acted upon. I can be the object of
      > an
      > > > action. I can also do the action and thus I can be the subject
      > also.
      > > >
      > > > But Consciousness cannot be the object because it has the
      > distinction
      > > > of being the universal subject. It is the I in me and the I in
      > you.
      > > > It is the I of the universe. Thus it is said to be the
      > universe.
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > My understanding is, that an
      > > > > individual's consciousness has an
      > > > > unconscious component also and has
      > > > > states: dream, waking, and deep sleep.
      > > > >
      > > > > If the whole is 100%, it is said, that
      > > > > in the waking state we use 15% of that.
      > > > >
      > > > > it was mentioned, that in the deep
      > > > > sleep and dream states the whole 100%
      > > > > is accessed.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now with the model of Consciousness
      > > > > with the capital C I came up for myself
      > > > > while reading Nisargadatta and it is
      > > > > imagined by me as an omnipresent
      > > > > omnipotent omniscient Awareness of
      > > > > the whole, like God,
      > > >
      > > > I agree with this idea.
      > > >
      > > > >no way of being conscious of that maybe
      > > > > have cosmic
      > > > > glimpses into it and it is a whole
      > > > > different story
      > > >
      > > > I don't agree with this.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > how so?
      > >
      > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Listening to Grof, how he talked about
      > > > > the collective unconscious [Jung]
      > > > > and that to change it could be and
      > > > > should be done only by individuals,
      > > > > many of them waking up to this responsibility.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am interested in that! gaia needs
      > > > > to be repaired looking at the present
      > > > > day of affairs, violence etc
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > You are in the universe. Repair yourself!
      > >
      > >
      > > yes, exactly this is the thought
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > >
      > > > > and my question arose, what is the
      > > > > connection of the collective
      > > > > unconscious Grof is talking about to
      > > > > the Consciousness concept ala
      > > > > Nisargadatta
      > > > >
      > > > > love, Karta
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > If the collective Unconscious is the genetic memory it still is
      > > > nothing more than tendencies the organism possesses. This to me
      > is
      > > > the mental.
      > > >
      > > > What comes first, the physical universe or the mental? One can
      > say
      > > > the physical evolves to the point where people are created that
      > have
      > > > consciousness. But how would the physical universe know how to
      > do
      > > > that without the mental world as a plan?
      > > >
      > > > I have read that at the bottom of matter is energy and at the
      > bottom
      > > > of energy is mind and at the bottom of mind is spirit.
      > > >
      > > > And I have read that involution is the period of time it takes
      > for
      > > > the mental plan for a universe to come into being and an equal
      > amount
      > > > of time is required for the evolution of that universe to
      > produce an
      > > > environment for a species to become self aware.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I had and experience when the delusion
      > > of time was blown away and replaced
      > > by a cosmic unity feeling, so I just
      > > leave time out of my ponderings
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > Thus mind creates
      > > > the physical which creates the mind again.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > this is interesting Bobby,
      > >
      > > I've similar understanding, that the
      > > physical universe is 'dreamed' up,
      > > created by us
      > >
      > > Exactly this is the point I am searching
      > > around. If as Grof says the animal
      > > human nature; the emotions, reaction to
      > > violence, violence is there all the
      > > time in the matrix of the collective unconscious, which inturn
      > influences
      > > everyone
      > >
      > > So far I hear: "No free will" slogans
      > > and believed, that life is happening
      > > not much one can do...
      > >
      > > But listening to Grof's model there
      > > is hope, we just have to wake up to
      > > the presence of this colective
      > > unconscious and be careful what we
      > > 'put' in it
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > As long as the structure for understanding you use dictates that
      > > > Consciousness is possessed by people as an attribute I don't
      > believe
      > > > you will access Nisargadatta's understanding.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I am working on that; I call his kind
      > > of Consciousness: pristine Awareness
      > >
      > > it can be held almost the same as
      > > possesed
      > >
      > >
      > > > I don't see a correlation between the Collective Unconscious and
      > > > Consciousness.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > there is somethin' there
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > I think they come from different levels of the
      > > > Spectrum of Consciousness (Ken Wilber)
      > > >
      > > > Love,
      > > > Bobby G.
      > >
      > > love, Karta
      >
      > Hi Karta and Bobby,
      >
      > You two are having a nice dialog, much intelligent insight, more and
      > more views. You are intelligent, perseverant in your search for
      > intellectual understanding and patient. Now excuse me, after
      > this "nice" introduction, because i am going to say what all this
      > seems to me, and maybe you won't like it.
      >
      > No amount of reading, intellectual understanding, insights, flashes
      > or glimpses even, will allow you to really understand all this
      > chatering unless you have the direct experience of what is called
      > enlightenment.
      >
      > My teacher used to say that a real seeker needs to be provided of
      > the three P's. This is: Patience, Perseverance and Purity. I have
      > already said that you seem to have the first two. But you are
      > lacking of Purity.
      >
      > Let me explain what i mean by purity. It means a mind in its pure
      > state, it means, in it's natural state which is that devoid of
      > thoughts, or maybe preferably to say, devoid of tendencies (which is
      > the same thing). This doesn't mean that anybody will be totally
      > devoid of thoughts or tendencies always (not even after
      > enlightenment). What this really means is that there is needed only
      > a fraction of an instant when there are no thoughts but total
      > awareness is present. This Consciousness of which you talk so much
      > will reveal itself in that instant, and no more speculations about
      > it will be neccesary, for all will be known from then on.
      >
      > I know this, so that is why i see that you don't, because you
      > continue speculating, reading, making research. And why? Why is all
      > this investigation done? Presumably because you are looking for the
      > answers. Well, it has been said enough times that enlightenment,
      > that 'instant', will reveal the answers. It has been said millions
      > of times that intellectualizing is part of the way to it, but not
      > all (only a 15% here, isn't it?). And how to acquire a pure state of
      > mind? Silence. Stopping the internal dialog, the external dialog,
      > the speculations and studies. And this requires a good instant
      > dedicated to it. Or a prolonged instant (hours, days, the time each
      > mind will require for its ripeness), or just NOW.
      >
      > Why don't you go directly to it? I assure you this is true.
      > Enlightenment in which all the existentialist doubts are cleared
      > exists. And afterwards, you won't be able to explain it. This is why
      > those who have lived it are only pointers to it, (and generally they
      > are not believed, of course, but what can be done in that respect?)
      > and the only thing you can do is to trust them, or at least one of
      > them (preferably).
      > But you will not access Nisargadatta's or any realized being's
      > understanding unless you get dissolved in that happening or
      > experience by yourselves.
      >


      with all do respect, Maria Luisa

      you sound like Ganga: assuming that,
      we did not have the experinece of
      light, but *YOU* did.

      same answer as to her: go fligh a khyte

      <grin>

      love, Karta

      > Love,
      > ML
    • dan330033
      ... and ... all ... Yes, why would I give up being lit up? Why would I want to give up the situation in which I can want, be gratified, have experiences? I
      Message 57 of 57 , Jul 21, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > "cornelius9x" <cornelius9x@y...> wrote:
        > snip
        > > I'm with you on rasta being an intriguing religion, and while" I
        and
        > > I and I" serves to keep a focus on "I-consciousness", the thread
        > > of "dualism" inherent in the relationship between "I" and King
        > > Solomon" or I and Selassie-I, is saddled by cultural baggage.
        > > But hey, it's the cultural baggage that make it a religion. And
        all
        > > religions have that "blah blah" cultural trappings.
        > >
        > > for a higher high,
        > > rastaman C
        >
        > Dear Ras C,
        >
        > This brings to mind (whatever that is:-), the concept that with
        > (all?) Bhakti situations, the practitioner 'wants' to be separate
        > from their divinity, so as to be able to worship and adore Her/Him.
        > And of course, with the Rasta's, the adoration and worshiping of
        > H.I.M. Selassie-I really lights them up.
        >
        > Peace and blessings,
        > Ras Rose


        Yes, why would I give up being lit up?

        Why would I want to give up the situation in which
        I can want, be gratified, have experiences?

        I wouldn't -- because that is the activity which is I.

        -- Dan
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