8731Re: The utility of spiritual experiences
- May 29, 2003--- In email@example.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@s...> wrote:
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "jodyrrr" <No. I'm seeking to counteract those who flood
> jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
> > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
> > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
> > there are those for which they have some utility.
> > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
> > find some value in the experiences of their students.
> > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
> > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
> > with a "winning" team.
> Hi Jody -
> A few questions, s'il vous plait:
> Are you in competition with gurus?
these lists with occluding expectations about
> When you pepperIs that the same thing as swaying opinion?
> you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting
> to prejudice the reader?
If so, then yes.
It's fun being funny! :)
> Is it about proving thatIt's about the con built into the structure
> gurus are unnecessary or that gurus are running a
> con, and that is their primary if not exclusive
of the superior vs. inferior relationship
> What is "only the static discharge ofIt's more along the lines of "you don't wonder
> transformational practice"? Is this along the lines
> of we are only meat that thinks, and meat that
> has a spiritual practice?
why your farts smell bad, you just know they do."
Similarly, you don't need to be concerned with your
meditation experiences, you just know you have them.
> Are endorsements inherentlyIt depends on who is endorsing who and why.
> Why do you see the sharing of "spiritual"I've sat in satsang and watched.
> experiences as vying for the guru's affection?
> Are you possibly projecting your own stuff here?There's always that possibility with each of us.
It's certainly true to a degree with me. I've been
informed by a certain set of experiences which
has led me to a particular course of action
which results in what I say here.
> Is it possible that the sharing of experiencesNo. Sharing of experiences only perpetuates
> helps others to open up to the possibility of
> their own experience of enlightenment, and that
> this is why the guru asks for sharing?
attachments to those experiences and the identities
of the ones haveing them, imo.
> How are you able to accurately assess that theFirsthand observation at the satsangs of two gurus.
> guru's purpose is to keep devotees coming back and
> keeping attendance records?
> How do you know whatI don't. However, I do believe I know what they
> a person needs better than that person who shows
> up for satsang?
> Is it possible that the guru'sOne can only hope so. Unfortunately, I've observed a
> primary motivation, make that life's central purpose
> and greatest satisfaction, is to share the joy
> and freedom that his or her own enlightenment brought?
number who have other motivations.
> Given that this group is about exploring meditation'sThe only thing I'm aware of longing for is a steady
> efficacy for preparing the ground for practical matters
> such as stress reduction, and that meditation is the most
> common milieu reported as precedent to enlightenment
> in text and scripture over thousands of year, is it
> possible that you are a prideful jnana yogi who longs
> for full-blown enlightenment and guru status, and that
> all your attempts at discrediting meditation and
> gurus is sour grapes?
income. I'm not looking for any more enlightenment.
It doesn't come in quanities anyway.
I do have guru status with a few folk. That's enough.
My sour grapes are the result of finding out firsthand
that what I believed about realization was wrong.
The expectations I had picked up that are inherent in
spiritual culture were wrong. After I came to understanding,
I looked around me and saw an ocean of occluding
bullshit known as spiritual culture.
Hence my views and their expression.
> And finally, what are yourComplete and utter bullshit. It's the great white sugar pill
> views on "transmission"?
> Namaste and love,Thanks for asking the tough questions Jeff.
> > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
> > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
> > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
> > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
> > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
> > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
> > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
> > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
> > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
> > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
> > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
> > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
> > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
> > encourage the generation and expression of these
> > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
> > was these very types of experiences that keep the
> > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
> > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
> > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
> > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
> > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
> > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
> > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
> > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
> > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
> > lists full.
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