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7259[Meditation Society of America] Re: Email questions about 3rd Eye and comments during meditation

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  • texasbg2000
    Apr 30, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
      <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
      >
      > > > Jason: Yes depth, the shallow end of what we would
      > > all
      > > > care to experience. Moving, powerful &
      > > overwhelming.
      > > > As to say this is heaven or hell, either being
      > > deep
      > > > states of good or badness.
      > >
      > > No, not my meaning. With deep meditation at least
      > > in my case,
      > > thoughts slow and very few ideas are presented. The
      > > recurring one
      > > was will I be posessed, i.e., is the idea of
      > > meditation a misleading
      > > conspiracy to get people to submit to a loss of
      > > control of themselves.
      > >
      > > I found that idea to be wrong but only after I was
      > > 'at the end of my
      > > rope'.
      >
      > Jason: OK, I see the conspiracy side of thought as
      > though to say something is being done to you. i.e.
      > another putting the thought in your head that
      > meditation is lovely, only to find out that it's a way
      > for another to control you (a demon, let's say).
      > Although, I do still question the control side, as to
      > say you are doing something to yourself or for
      > yourself. In the case of meditation, is the act of
      > meditation giving you something (either positive or
      > negative)? As to say does the peace you feel during
      > deep meditation give rise to a good feeling (not
      > thoughts in words, just feeling) Let's not address the
      > in between thought for now, as to say neti, neti.
      >

      Isn't this a different topic. That of 'is meditation helpful?' I
      believe meditating makes you better at meditation.

      > > >
      > > > > It seemed like if I went any further I would
      > > lose
      > > > > control. I told
      > > > > myself i was willing to die but I had to know if
      > > I
      > > > > had wasted my time
      > > > > and had never really been willing to face my
      > > fears.
      > > >
      > > > Jason: yes I understand this practice. On what one
      > > > would call a control issue, wouldn't someone with
      > > a
      > > > serious intent to kill, holding a gun to anothers
      > > head
      > > > be quite the same practice? Would you say there is
      > > a
      > > > better sense of control when one does this on
      > > their
      > > > own?
      > >
      > > could you go into this a little more? I dont
      > > understand your meaning.
      > > I actually sat down and waited to die.
      >
      > Jason: What is ment here is, is sitting and waiting to
      > die something other then have someone force your
      > eminent death apon you. Does this waiting to die seem
      > to give you the control as opposed to another taking
      > your life? If, so... Does this thought that you
      > control the outcome give you benift?

      The idea of control is slippery. "Controlling the senses" sounds
      like an act of doing something but in fact is the act of not doing
      anything: not being influenced in any way enough to let the senses
      take focus from meditation.

      Submitting to fear is different in type than submitting to a loss of
      control, which is in effect, control of the senses.

      Eminent death is different. It is said that even the sages quake
      when death is near.

      >
      > I have succumb to my own death in both situations, so
      > for me neither feel different, nor does there seem to
      > be a benifit or non-benifit to this illusion of an
      > end.
      >
      > > >
      > > > > I practiced a
      > > > > small affirmation that when the time came I
      > > would
      > > > > not back off
      > > > > again. So I was graced with Samadhi.
      > > >
      > > > Jason: hmm, ponderous.
      > >
      > > I have done this a lot, get prepared for thoughts
      > > that I expect to
      > > return. You seem critical? Could you explain
      > > please?
      >
      > Jason: The affirmation, that one will not back-off
      > next time. I was thinking about this backing off, this
      > letting go and again it seems to me a non-choice, nor
      > does it provide a benifit to partake in such a
      > practice.
      >
      > Such to say that you can do everything imaginable to
      > remove the fear that you don't know whats around the
      > corner. There still remains enough suprises around the
      > corner to keep taht fear in check.
      >
      > Much like going around the block to meet your
      > neighbors, you never know if you will be welcomed or
      > not. So there is a sense that you may not be, even if
      > you've been around the block a million times. There is
      > still enough unwelcoming to keep it interesting.

      I believed in the love and wisdom I read and experienced and I saw
      too much system leading forward and this helped me lose fear.

      The fear dwindled I think because it was not about a real thing and
      reality had grown more present in my life. Of course fear of the
      unknown disappears entirely when it is seen to be unfounded.

      The main point is that fear of being possessed was for me a diversion
      from the real fear. The fear of death is a big one and too massive
      to confront so I substituted something I could handle, the fear of
      possession.

      >
      > > >
      > > > > The fears were of the unknown. Like a child
      > > that
      > > > > does not know
      > > > > monsters of the supernatural kind do not exist
      > > > > because they have not
      > > > > lived enough to know, I had to learn to be
      > > brave.
      > > > > It seems silly now
      > > > > but the fear was like a wisp of smoke and I have
      > > not
      > > > > seen it since.
      > > > >
      > > > > The question of negative or positive has to
      > > answered
      > > > > in context to an
      > > > > event and not as one of the rules in an
      > > objective
      > > > > universe that we
      > > > > must somehow find. In that sense, thoughts
      > > during
      > > > > meditation are bad.
      > > >
      > > > Jason: I see, some thoughts outloud we share,
      > > thank
      > > > you! Fear of the unknown, the demon of all
      > > goodness
      > > > perhaps?
      > >
      > > I don't see goodness as an entity and as I explained
      > > I gave up the
      > > possibility of the demon.
      >
      > Jason: I understand. Although it is most certain to me
      > that people don't care for each other (or for things),
      > not in the least, until a moment arises when the other
      > can do something to benifit them, then they care
      > deeply. What really could be exposed is this knowing
      > of oneself and of others, this may aid in the fight
      > against the demons of understanding motivations and
      > interplay in any relational experience. Even though
      > people walk around saying things like "she/he loves me
      > for me" or "he/she doesn't care", the bottom line is
      > that they don't care until they do. Who am I? A
      > selfish person, until those that benifit me are
      > clearly understood, regardless of any past or future
      > interplay. Death seems beyond a sense of self and is
      > also prior to any senses. Nothing begins nor does it
      > end, so I guess this is the end of another begining:)

      I found that I love the truth. It is the simple act of knowing and
      it is the greatest gift of all. I don't think it is important if
      that is selfish or not.

      I do things for selfish reasons sometimes but when I find myself
      lying to myself to continue doing that thing then my tendency is to
      stop the lie and give up the benefit. That that gives me a greater
      benefit is beside the point.

      Love
      Bobby G.
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