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12299Re: No Thoughts Are Brilliant

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  • endofthedream@yahoo.com
    Dec 17, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > wrote:
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      > > However, if you are equating "when in the thoughts" with "being
      > > in the presence of thoughts," this is not necessarily so. In my
      > > experience, (and I speak ONLY for Andy, no one else), there is
      > > *no* problem with thoughts or their objects. Nor is there
      > > chasing or running away from them. They are seen, arising,
      > > receding ... just there, like the weather. Sure, some mornings,
      > > I get up, look at the stormy sky, a bitter cold wintery day, and
      > > find a disinclination to going outside in such inclement
      > > weather. But that is just another thought, another story.
      > > Appropriate clothing is selected and the journey outside is
      > > taken. (Or I crawl back under the covers and call in sick!
      > > Hahaha!!!) Sure, there is a sting! of discomfort when the wife
      > > offers a sharp word to me. However, in the watching, any
      > > stories, tales, or spinning out from what happened (some words
      > > were articulated, that is all) just does not happen. The
      > > horizontal involvement in 'the play' gets cut off, even in the
      > > midst of the thoughts ('She's such a bitch' or whatever).

      > Well, actually this seems to be is a good example of not
      > just "being in the presence of thoughts," but being caught up in
      > them.

      *****Let's look further. I don't disagree that the moment that the
      thought "she's such a bitch" happens, in that one second, there is
      caughtupness. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
      However, the next moment, it is seen that this is just a mechanical
      process of thought, and, in that seeing, any belief in the
      thought "she's such a bitch," disappears. With that disaappearance
      goes the story-telling, the justifying, the spinning off into a web
      of fabrication. THAT is what I was referring to as 'being caught up
      in the thoughts.' The immediate appearance of ANY thought, good, bad
      or indifferent, seems to belong to the mechanical nature of the mind
      while it is not in a meditative state.

      > > > The space between your thoughts is where brilliance is
      > > > found. Brilliance as in light, and brilliance as in wisdom. The
      > > > brilliance between thoughts is the experience of the infinite
      > > > peace transcendent of thought.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > *****Yes, it is peace, of a sort. But not one that is very
      > > useful, in my opinion.

      > You think so? I don't:-)

      > > Most of our 'conscious' life is navigated in the
      > > presence of thoughts. Until they are experienced to be empty,
      > > until one can 'ride' them with no upset, the work is not done.
      > > Thoughts are not ~ and have never been ~ the "problem." It is
      > > the investment in them that causes upset, disrupts the
      > > equanimity. Even the thought "I am to die tomorrow," need not
      > > cause upset. It is, after all, just a thought. It is not the
      > > dying (which is either to come or not to come, at a later moment).
      > >
      > > It is all well and good to experience peace, serentiy, even
      > > brilliance!, while engaged in formal sitting. It certainly has
      > > value (a lot! for some folks). But the persistent value of
      > > meditation is that it may allow this Seeing to be carried off of
      > > the cushion, into the workplace, the family, the world. And that
      > > entails being serenely WITH the thoughts that bombard us
      > > throughout our day, not escaping from them in the silence between
      > > them.

      > Dear Andyji,
      > You know how when you're in a movie theater and the movie is
      > playing, and you are aware of what's going on, but you know it's a
      > movie; well, that's about what thoughts about "stuff" is. But it's
      > rare to not get caught up in the plot if the characters play their
      > parts convincingly.

      *****All one must take attend to is one's OWN attention to the rising
      and receding of the thoughts. The other characters, regardless of
      how convincingly they play their parts, do not impinge on what is
      seen by one who is paying attention (to thoughts and everything else,
      for that matter). Peace begins, and ends, at home, in oneself,
      regardless of how others behave.

      > As a matter of fact, here in the movie houses in
      > Philly, the audience often talks back to the characters on the
      > screen, and have even been known to shoot their guns at them. And
      > like the audiences here, most people (99.99999%) find there isn't
      > any "serenity WITH the thoughts" in their 'real life'.

      *****Well, that may be so. I have not found it to be the case. A
      moment of looking up at a bright, blue sky, a thought
      following, "lovely weather," then thought moves on to something
      else. An angry exchange between me and the wife, a thought
      appearing, "she's such a bitch," then thought moves on to something
      else. No difference!

      > The space between the thoughts is the only thing that
      > is "persistent", and can "be carried off of the cushion, into the
      > workplace, the family, the world." The space between the thoughts
      > is the ocean from which the waves peak and subside, and not just
      > an "escape".

      *****I don't disagree. That space IS persistent. It never comes and
      never goes. It has always been there, with us, in us...it IS us.
      However, it is my experience that such silence does not persist "off
      the cushion." Sitting meditation produces a calmness and clarity but
      there is no interaction happening, except in thought. When one gets
      good at it, thought can run down and stop, and one just...
      sits...hearing the honk of a horn, feeling the breath move in and
      out, noticing the eyelid's flutter, a bird cawing ... This is not a
      state that happens to me in the everyday world where there is verbal
      interaction and complex actions which require the processing of
      thought. At such moments, thought is not quiet; it may be calm and
      serene, but it is operative and there is an awareness of the 'noise'
      of thought that is absent in sitting meditation. The noise and
      chatter of everyday thought is not, however, a problem, and there is,
      for me, no lack of serenity there also (although it is of a
      different ... caliber ... than what happens in 'formal' meditation).
      The thoughts which arise in the everyday world are seen to be, for
      the most part, no different than the movie scenario you depicted.
      They are the story of my life and there is as much investment in them
      as in a film. A moment of upset, a moment of joy. No difference in
      the main.

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