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RE: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving

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  • Beth and Bob Matney
    I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples.. (lots of post 1600 though). I m looking for really early examples of chip carving..
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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      I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
      (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
      chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

      Thanks
      Beth

      At 11:24 PM 10/4/2007, you wrote:
      >Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case you are unfamiliar,
      >a mangle board was used to press water out of clothing that had just
      >been washed. A wooden roller was placed upon the wet clothing, then
      >the mangle board was used to apply pressure to the roller. The
      >mangle board became a means of asking a lady to wed. By present her
      >with a finely carved mangle board you showed her your intentions
      >through the patterns of your carving - like the symbolism of the
      >love spoon later adopted. Do a web search to find out the earliest dates.
      >
      >In Magical Service,
      >Malaki
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      >[mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
      >Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:00 PM
      >To: woodworking
      >Subject: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving
      >
      >What are the earliest examples of chip carving in wood/bone/ivory
      >that you know of? Would really like to find a good scholarly
      >reference on the history...
      >
      >Thanks,
      >Beth
      >
      >On page 22 of
      >Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art and
      >Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud, Gloucestershire
      >[England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623 9780750904629 OCLC:35360600
      >
      >"The first manifestations of Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
      >Vermand style, after a cemetery in France in which examples of it are
      >well represented (81). The style employs chip-carving - a technique
      >derived from woodworking, originally developed, like so many Germanic
      >decorative techniques, around the head of the Black Sea. This became
      >widespread along the Roman frontier in Germany, where it was taken up
      >by Germanic troops in the Roman army."
      >
      >footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general discussion."
      >Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the Thames.
      >[London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965. OCLC:1354130
      >
      >
    • Rebekah d'Avignon
      That s going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might check Wayne Barton s books, I ve seen some pix of early work in there - nothing before
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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        That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in there - nothing before 1300, I believe.

        Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
        I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
        (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
        chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

        Thanks
        Beth
        .




        The quantity of "civilization" possessed by a society is not found in its sciences, technology, or "quality of life". Rather it is found in the manner in which its citizens treat each other - in which case we are just "high tech barbarians".


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      • Beth and Bob Matney
        We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving (such as on early
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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          We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
          decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
          (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
          was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
          I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
          of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
          have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...

          BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
          from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.

          Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
          Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
          Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00

          Thanks,
          Beth

          At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
          >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
          >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
          >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
          >
          >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
          >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
          >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
          >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
          >
          >Thanks
          >Beth
        • Dale Compton
          Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 7, 2007
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            Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving where on furniture. I will see if I can find some examples for you.
             
            Innis


            From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
            Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:14 AM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving

            I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
            (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
            chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

            Thanks
            Beth

            At 11:24 PM 10/4/2007, you wrote:

            >Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case
            you are unfamiliar,
            >a mangle board was used to press water out of
            clothing that had just
            >been washed. A wooden roller was placed upon the
            wet clothing, then
            >the mangle board was used to apply pressure to the
            roller. The
            >mangle board became a means of asking a lady to wed. By
            present her
            >with a finely carved mangle board you showed her your
            intentions
            >through the patterns of your carving - like the symbolism of
            the
            >love spoon later adopted. Do a web search to find out the earliest
            dates.
            >
            >In Magical
            Service,
            >Malaki
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From:
            href="mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com">medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
            >[mailto:
            href="mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com">medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
            >Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:00
            PM
            >To: woodworking
            >Subject: [MedievalSawdust] chip
            carving
            >
            >What are the earliest examples of chip carving in
            wood/bone/ivory
            >that you know of? Would really like to find a good
            scholarly
            >reference on the
            history...
            >
            >Thanks,
            >Beth
            >
            >On page 22
            of
            >Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art
            and
            >Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud,
            Gloucestershire
            >[England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623
            9780750904629 OCLC:35360600
            >
            >"The first manifestations of
            Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
            >Vermand style, after a cemetery in
            France in which examples of it are
            >well represented (81). The style
            employs chip-carving - a technique
            >derived from woodworking, originally
            developed, like so many Germanic
            >decorative techniques, around the head
            of the Black Sea. This became
            >widespread along the Roman frontier in
            Germany, where it was taken up
            >by Germanic troops in the Roman
            army."
            >
            >footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general
            discussion."
            >Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the
            Thames.
            >[London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965.
            OCLC:1354130
            >
            >

          • Rebekah d'Avignon
            You may be talking about An Introduction to the History of the Woodcut (Vols I & II). I got mine from eBay. Dale Compton wrote:
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2007
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              You may be talking about An Introduction to the History of the Woodcut (Vols I & II). I got mine from eBay.

              Dale Compton <DComptonjr@...> wrote:
              Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving where on furniture. I will see if I can find some examples for you.
               
              Innis
              .




              The quantity of "civilization" possessed by a society is not found in its sciences, technology, or "quality of life". Rather it is found in the manner in which its citizens treat each other - in which case we are just "high tech barbarians".


              Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
              Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

            • Jan-Simon Hoogschagen
              As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it mentioned in the books, or
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval
                furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it
                mentioned in the books, or saw pictures of it.
                As already said in this discussion, it does appear on chests from the
                13th / 14th century.
                I will check the book by Florian Westphal this evening (beautiful book
                by the way), when I am back home to see if I have not missed any chip
                carvings. Will also go through Barbara Grodde's book on early medieval
                furniture, just in case.

                best wishes,
                Jan-Simon

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                <bmatney@...> wrote:
                >
                > We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
                > decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
                > (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
                > was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
                > I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
                > of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
                > have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...
                >
                > BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
                > from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.
                >
                > Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
                > Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
                > Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Beth
                >
                > At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
                > >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
                > >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
                > >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
                > >
                > >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                > >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                > >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                > >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
                > >
                > >Thanks
                > >Beth
                >
              • kjworz@comcast.net
                A lot would depend on your definition of chip carving. Does it have to be in wood? What we recognize today as chip carving has roots in the styles that matured
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                  A lot would depend on your definition of chip carving.

                  Does it have to be in wood?

                  What we recognize today as chip carving has roots in the styles that matured in Switzerland post period.

                  Every treatise I read about Chip Carving always say that "is an ancient method of decoration" but never cites examples. Citations, the lack thereof, is a bane to our research.

                  Links
                  http://www.caithness.org/community/crafts/chipcarving/McIvorandAllen.htm
                  cites especially the geometric carving influence from Islam

                  http://www.fifulls.com/site/837579/page/45030

                  --
                  -Chris Schwartz
                  Silver Spring, MD

                  -------------- Original message ----------------------
                  From: "Jan-Simon Hoogschagen" <jan-simon@...>
                  > As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval
                  > furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it
                  > mentioned in the books, or saw pictures of it.
                  > As already said in this discussion, it does appear on chests from the
                  > 13th / 14th century.
                  > I will check the book by Florian Westphal this evening (beautiful book
                  > by the way), when I am back home to see if I have not missed any chip
                  > carvings. Will also go through Barbara Grodde's book on early medieval
                  > furniture, just in case.
                  >
                  > best wishes,
                  > Jan-Simon
                  >
                  > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                  > <bmatney@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
                  > > decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
                  > > (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
                  > > was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
                  > > I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
                  > > of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
                  > > have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...
                  > >
                  > > BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
                  > > from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.
                  > >
                  > > Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
                  > > Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
                  > > Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Beth
                  > >
                  > > At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
                  > > >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
                  > > >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
                  > > >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
                  > > >
                  > > >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                  > > >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                  > > >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                  > > >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
                  > > >
                  > > >Thanks
                  > > >Beth
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Bruce S. R. Lee
                  In stone, do a search on Jesus Family Tomb - at least one of the ossuaries has chip carved rosettes. Photos are in the May/June 2007 (vol 18 No.3) issue of
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                    In stone, do a search on 'Jesus Family Tomb' - at least one of the
                    ossuaries has 'chip' carved rosettes. Photos are in the May/June 2007
                    (vol 18 No.3) issue of Minerva, if you local library gets it.

                    There are a lot of 'chip' carved designs in stone from the
                    'Classical' world, just that the amount of surviving wood is very
                    limited. I'll have to do a quick search of my Roman woodworking books
                    to see if anything survived from Herculaneum.


                    regards
                    Brusi of Orkney
                    Rowany/Lochac
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