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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

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  • Bill McNutt
    Its planes. A matched pair of planes, one to cut the groove and one to cut the tongue. Using my table saw, I ve successfully approximated the process. You
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 27 6:09 AM
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      Its planes.  A matched pair of planes, one to cut the groove and one to cut the tongue.  Using my table saw, I’ve successfully approximated the process.  You can cut the groove in three passes and the tongue in four.  It’s going to be a pain with the skilsaw, though.  I’m not sure I could keep it straight without a guide.

       

      Will

       


      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of WR
      Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:56 PM
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

       

      Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

      Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

      Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
      grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
      relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
      machines.

      Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
      forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
      porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
      obviously out of the question.

      I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
      "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
      bills, I'll probably try making them.

      In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
      should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
      passes with a circular saw?

      Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
      it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

      Wolf

      PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
      truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
      though. ;-)

    • Rebekah d'Avignon
      Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8 wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 27 9:44 AM
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        Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8" wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion of T&G. The second plane was made the same with the iron offset to cut one side of the tongue, then the board was reversed to cut the other side.

        WR <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
        Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

        Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

        Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
        grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
        relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
        machines.

        Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
        forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
        porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
        obviously out of the question.

        I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
        "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
        bills, I'll probably try making them.

        In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
        should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
        passes with a circular saw?

        Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
        it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

        Wolf

        PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
        truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
        though. ;-)



        Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to use sarcasm creatively.


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      • Michael T Combs
        a tongue and groove can also be done with a miter saw or back saw for the tongue and a drill bit and chisel for the groove, but this method is slower and
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 27 9:48 AM
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          a tongue and groove can also be done with a miter saw or back saw for the tongue and a drill bit and chisel for the groove, but this method is slower and sloppier and probably more period
           
          Michaeus

          Rebekah d'Avignon <rebekahdavignon@...> wrote:
          Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8" wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion of T&G. The second plane was made the same with the iron offset to cut one side of the tongue, then the board was reversed to cut the other side.

          WR <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
          Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

          Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

          Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
          grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
          relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
          machines.

          Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
          forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
          porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
          obviously out of the question.

          I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
          "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
          bills, I'll probably try making them.

          In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
          should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
          passes with a circular saw?

          Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
          it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

          Wolf

          PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
          truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
          though. ;-)



          Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to use sarcasm creatively.

          Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.


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        • WR
          Chas, ... That s what I was afraid of :-) ... ...not to mention that my Lady is usually the one who bandages my experiments with woodworking! Typical
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 27 9:58 AM
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            Chas,

            James Winkler wrote:
            >
            > Ummm... yup... tongue and grove joints made with hammers and chisles and hand planes...
            >
            That's what I was afraid of :-)

            > Your lady sounds like a highly inspirational laurel who is encouraging you to develop the medieval skill set that will allow you to aquire some REALLY COOL TOOLS down the road...
            >

            ...not to mention that my Lady is usually the one who bandages my
            "experiments" with woodworking! Typical conversation:

            Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
            She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
            Me: "It's just a scratch."
            She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
            (conversation usually devolves from this point)

            >
            > .. or barter yer' skills with some itinerant blacksmith...

            Hmmm...
            >
            > Go with the pitch... hand tools rock...

            Yeah, I *really* wish I could've gotten "first dibs" on my grandfather's
            storage building! As it was, I got a draw-knife or two, a 3lb
            cross-peen hammer, and a beaver-tail hammer... Of course, I'd rather
            have my grandfather, but...

            >
            > Know how to get to Carnagy Hall? Yea.... practice, practice... PRACTICE. Speed comes with skill... skill comes with practice.

            I was afraid you were going to say that too. :-)

            > .. and... if all that fails... a trip to Brian's could help...

            ;-)

            > Chas.
            >
            > (... well... maybe ONE OR TWO powertools... )

            One day, when I hit the lottery.....

            Thanks! Looks like time for a new children's book - "Fun With Hammer
            And Chisel!" :-)

            Wolf
          • James Winkler
            ... Me: Hey, that s one sharp chisel! She: Come here, and don t bleed on the carpet. Me: It s just a scratch. She: And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 27 10:07 AM
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              >> Typical conversation:

              Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
              She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
              Me: "It's just a scratch."
              She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
              (conversation usually devolves from this point)  <<
               
              LMAO... 
               
              Yea.. sounds kinda' familiar... 
               
              Me:  Honey, we have to go to the hospital..
              She: OK
              Me: ... oh... and I won't be fighting in Crown
              She: OK
               
              ...  true conversation from a number of years ago...
              Interestingly... it wasn't until she was driving me
              to the emergency room that she asked that ever
              popular question, "What happened?"
               
              ... of course it WUZ' DA' POWER TOOLS THAT
              DID DA' DASTARDLY DEED...  I'd hate to
              bleed on a good blade... 
               
              Chas.
            • Michael T Combs
              yes make sure you wipe the blood off the blade off right away, you don t want to damage it James Winkler wrote: Typical
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 27 10:10 AM
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                yes make sure you wipe the blood off the blade off right away, you don't want to damage it

                James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
                >> Typical conversation:

                Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
                She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
                Me: "It's just a scratch."
                She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
                (conversation usually devolves from this point)  <<
                 
                LMAO... 
                 
                Yea.. sounds kinda' familiar... 
                 
                Me:  Honey, we have to go to the hospital..
                She: OK
                Me: ... oh... and I won't be fighting in Crown
                She: OK
                 
                ...  true conversation from a number of years ago...
                Interestingly... it wasn't until she was driving me
                to the emergency room that she asked that ever
                popular question, "What happened?"
                 
                ... of course it WUZ' DA' POWER TOOLS THAT
                DID DA' DASTARDLY DEED...  I'd hate to
                bleed on a good blade... 
                 
                Chas.


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              • WR
                Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what I ve been able to gather, I m looking at: A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 27 11:42 AM
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                  Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what
                  I've been able to gather, I'm looking at:

                  A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                  B.) Find a rabbet/plow plane combination;
                  C.) Small table saw.

                  I've already started on A, otherwise I would answer and thank each of
                  you individually. "Speedy Gonzales" I am not, and I've already
                  experienced a couple of blow-outs, but nothing that is irreparable.
                  When cutting down, the chisel went "out" instead of "in" - lesson
                  learned? Slant chisel towards the center to make a "V" cut, and widen
                  from there. Fortunately the box I'm making is for the back of my truck,
                  not an A&S project!

                  I've also done some hunting for the planes mentioned - Colin, plow (or
                  plough) planes are indeed still available new! WoodZone (
                  http://www.woodzone.com/ ) shows two under the "plough" spelling - both
                  by Anant, a company out of India (make of that what you will). As for
                  Rebekah's "cut one side, turn around, cut other side" for the tongue,
                  that'd probably be easier than the "cut both sides" blade I was thinking
                  of! Thanks for that as well. My thought-process was apparently in a
                  rut. :-) I was more in line with Bill's "matched set" of blades.

                  I've got a few on ebay that I'm keeping my eye on. SWMBO will NOT be
                  pleased, but..... Hey, Live Dangerously! :-)

                  Option C. is ironic - I "do" have a small (Dremel-small!) table-saw, but
                  unfortunately it's in storage about 1,000 miles from here.

                  I've also started work on what will hopefully be a wood-body plane.
                  Having never made anything like it before, there will probably be more
                  "error" than "trial", but it'll be fun at the very least!

                  Once again, thank you to all of you. Most importantly, thank you for
                  saying it wasn't a stupid question!

                  Wolf
                • C N Schwartz
                  You don t have to buy a set of T&G match planes. You could just buy something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane. Stanley made these, and the #48
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 27 7:37 PM
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                    You don't have to buy a set of T&G match planes.  You could just buy something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane.  Stanley made these, and the #48 is still kinda cheap in user condition.  High thee to your local antique tool pusher.
                     
                    These tools are self contained into one single item, and work pretty well.  Simple to use, too, even for the ham fisted.  You make the groove, the switch the tool around and make the tongue on another piece and Bob's yer Uncle:.
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of WR
                    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:43 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

                    Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what
                    I've been able to gather, I'm looking at:

                    A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                    B.) Find a rabbet/plow plane combination;
                    C.) Small table saw.

                    I've already started on A, otherwise I would answer and thank each of
                    you individually. "Speedy Gonzales" I am not, and I've already
                    experienced a couple of blow-outs, but nothing that is irreparable.
                    When cutting down, the chisel went "out" instead of "in" - lesson
                    learned? Slant chisel towards the center to make a "V" cut, and widen
                    from there. Fortunately the box I'm making is for the back of my truck,
                    not an A&S project!

                    I've also done some hunting for the planes mentioned - Colin, plow (or
                    plough) planes are indeed still available new! WoodZone (
                    http://www.woodzone .com/ ) shows two under the "plough" spelling - both
                    by Anant, a company out of India (make of that what you will). As for
                    Rebekah's "cut one side, turn around, cut other side" for the tongue,
                    that'd probably be easier than the "cut both sides" blade I was thinking
                    of! Thanks for that as well. My thought-process was apparently in a
                    rut. :-) I was more in line with Bill's "matched set" of blades.

                    I've got a few on ebay that I'm keeping my eye on. SWMBO will NOT be
                    pleased, but..... Hey, Live Dangerously! :-)

                    Option C. is ironic - I "do" have a small (Dremel-small! ) table-saw, but
                    unfortunately it's in storage about 1,000 miles from here.

                    I've also started work on what will hopefully be a wood-body plane.
                    Having never made anything like it before, there will probably be more
                    "error" than "trial", but it'll be fun at the very least!

                    Once again, thank you to all of you. Most importantly, thank you for
                    saying it wasn't a stupid question!

                    Wolf

                  • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                    This includes a trip down to the Scary Sharp place to get the blades sharp enough to take a curl of wood off the end grain. James Cunningham A.) Spend lots
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 27 9:35 PM
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                      This includes a trip down to the "Scary Sharp" place to get the blades sharp
                      enough to take a curl of wood off the end grain.

                      James Cunningham

                      A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                    • Avery Austringer
                      Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture.... When you say hand tool is a router or a circular saw still a hand tool? If so, and you don t want to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 28 6:42 AM
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                        Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....

                        When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                        tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                        the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                        http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT

                        Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                        Google had for me.

                        Avery
                      • kjworz@comcast.net
                        Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind... -- -Chris Schwartz Silver
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 28 6:52 AM
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                          Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind...

                          --
                          -Chris Schwartz
                          Silver Spring, MD

                          -------------- Original message ----------------------
                          From: Avery Austringer <avery1415@...>
                          > Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                          >
                          > When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                          > tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                          > the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                          > http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                          >
                          > Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                          > Google had for me.
                          >
                          > Avery
                        • WR
                          Hmmmmm, thought I saw one of these on ebay... I ll need to double-check, but I ve also got my eye on a Stanley #45 sing, dance, and juggle plane.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 28 7:11 AM
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                            Hmmmmm, thought I saw one of these on ebay...

                            I'll need to double-check, but I've also got my eye on a Stanley #45
                            "sing, dance, and juggle" plane.

                            C N Schwartz wrote:
                            > You don't have to buy a set of T&G match planes. You could just buy
                            > something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane. Stanley made these,
                            > and the #48 is still kinda cheap in user condition. High thee to your local
                            > antique tool pusher.
                            >
                            > These tools are self contained into one single item, and work pretty well.
                            > Simple to use, too, even for the ham fisted. You make the groove, the
                            > switch the tool around and make the tongue on another piece and Bob's yer
                            > Uncle:.
                            >
                            > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan7.htm#num48
                            >
                            > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan13.htm#num148
                          • WR
                            I plan on adding corded tools in the future, but in the meantime I m dealing with the apartment living issue... I can time the hammer-blows and saw-strokes,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 28 7:30 AM
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                              I plan on adding corded tools in the future, but in the meantime I'm
                              dealing with the "apartment living" issue...

                              I can time the hammer-blows and saw-strokes, but people complain when my
                              circular saw or jig-saw interferes with their "BOOM-chi-chiBOOM-chi-chi"

                              ...and that's a subject so utterly "off-topic" as to not even be in the
                              same universe.

                              But those (and the router to plug them into) are definitely in the "next
                              step" category! "Adjustable" is nice - when I have the room for a full
                              set of "sized" tools, I'll get them, but "adjustable" is workable until
                              then!

                              Wolf

                              Avery Austringer wrote:
                              > Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                              >
                              > When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                              > tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                              > the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                              > http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                              >
                              > Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                              > Google had for me.
                              >
                              > Avery
                            • WR
                              The make-big-mistakes-eat-yer-fingers-off-doubles-as-dinner-table kind is one of those when I hit the lottery items. The portable eat-yer-fingers kind is
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 28 8:56 AM
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                                The make-big-mistakes-eat-yer-fingers-off-doubles-as-dinner-table kind
                                is one of those "when I hit the lottery" items. The portable
                                eat-yer-fingers kind is coming Real Soon Now.

                                The kind I'm talking about is more along the lines of "Honey, I'll set
                                up the barbecue just as soon as I put the B&D ShopMate away!"

                                Wolf

                                kjworz@... wrote:
                                > Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind...
                                >
                                > --
                                > -Chris Schwartz
                                > Silver Spring, MD
                                >
                                > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                > From: Avery Austringer <avery1415@...>
                                >> Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                                >>
                                >> When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                                >> tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                                >> the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                                >> http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                                >>
                                >> Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                                >> Google had for me.
                                >>
                                >> Avery
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