Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

Expand Messages
  • AlbionWood
    This isn t a stupid question at all. Cutting the T&G with hand tools is not a trivial matter. There are special T&G plane sets, but the old ones are rarely
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 26, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      This isn't a stupid question at all. Cutting the T&G with hand tools is
      not a trivial matter. There are special T&G plane sets, but the old
      ones are rarely found together in working condition and the new ones are
      expensive. The good news is you really only need two planes: a rabbet
      (rebate) plane, and a plow plane. Cut the groove first, with the plow
      plane, then use the rabbet plane to cut the tongue to fit. Both kinds
      are fairly common in antique tool shops or on Ebay. Rabbet planes can
      also be bought new, fairly inexpensive, but I don't know about new plow
      planes.

      In order to use these tools, however, you first need a much larger tool:
      a solid workbench to which you can clamp the boards, edge-up. This will
      be much larger than a jointer, so you may be back to the space problem.
      A lightweight table won't do - it won't hold still while you shove the
      planes through the wood.

      You can save yourself some time with a circular saw, if it has a fence
      (or if you make a jig for the base to ride against). First, cut and
      joint the edges of some 2X stock so you have straight edges square to
      the face. Clamp one of these to each side of your workpiece, so that
      all three boards are flush. This gives you a wider surface for the saw
      base to ride on. Set the fence or jig so you can cut the width of the
      groove in two passes (one from each end). Waste out any remaining wood
      between the cuts by resetting the fence/jig. Then use the same trick to
      cut the tongue, starting a little "fat" (thicker than the groove), in
      four passes. (One from each end on edge, one from each end on flat.)
      Then use a plane to shave the tongue down to fit in the groove. This is
      lots easier to do with a table saw, but the basic idea is the same.

      Are there any Woodcraft stores near you? They often rent shop space,
      with tools, by the hour. You could cut T&G joints waaaay faster with a
      router.

      Have fun,
      Colin


      WR wrote:
      > Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...
      >
      > Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".
      >
      > Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
      > grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
      > relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
      > machines.
      >
      > Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
      > forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
      > porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
      > obviously out of the question.
      >
      > I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
      > "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
      > bills, I'll probably try making them.
      >
      > In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
      > should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
      > passes with a circular saw?
      >
      > Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
      > it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)
      >
      > Wolf
      >
      > PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
      > truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
      > though. ;-)
      >
      >
    • Bill McNutt
      Its planes. A matched pair of planes, one to cut the groove and one to cut the tongue. Using my table saw, I ve successfully approximated the process. You
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
      • 0 Attachment

        Its planes.  A matched pair of planes, one to cut the groove and one to cut the tongue.  Using my table saw, I’ve successfully approximated the process.  You can cut the groove in three passes and the tongue in four.  It’s going to be a pain with the skilsaw, though.  I’m not sure I could keep it straight without a guide.

         

        Will

         


        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of WR
        Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:56 PM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

         

        Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

        Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

        Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
        grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
        relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
        machines.

        Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
        forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
        porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
        obviously out of the question.

        I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
        "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
        bills, I'll probably try making them.

        In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
        should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
        passes with a circular saw?

        Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
        it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

        Wolf

        PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
        truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
        though. ;-)

      • Rebekah d'Avignon
        Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8 wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8" wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion of T&G. The second plane was made the same with the iron offset to cut one side of the tongue, then the board was reversed to cut the other side.

          WR <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
          Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

          Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

          Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
          grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
          relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
          machines.

          Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
          forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
          porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
          obviously out of the question.

          I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
          "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
          bills, I'll probably try making them.

          In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
          should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
          passes with a circular saw?

          Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
          it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

          Wolf

          PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
          truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
          though. ;-)



          Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to use sarcasm creatively.


          Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

        • Michael T Combs
          a tongue and groove can also be done with a miter saw or back saw for the tongue and a drill bit and chisel for the groove, but this method is slower and
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            a tongue and groove can also be done with a miter saw or back saw for the tongue and a drill bit and chisel for the groove, but this method is slower and sloppier and probably more period
             
            Michaeus

            Rebekah d'Avignon <rebekahdavignon@...> wrote:
            Not a stupid question. This was done with two planes. On plane had an iron in the center, say 3/8" wide with a fence on the bottom. This cut the female portion of T&G. The second plane was made the same with the iron offset to cut one side of the tongue, then the board was reversed to cut the other side.

            WR <wolfeyes@...> wrote:
            Oh, ye masters of the measure, paladins of the plane, heroes of...

            Yeah, yeah - "Get on with the question!".

            Since my "formal education" with woodworking basically consisted of 7th
            grade woodshop (1/4 year class), I was wondering if anybody knew of a
            relatively easy method of tongue and grove joints, that doesn't involve
            machines.

            Situation: I live in an apartment, and She Who Must Be Obeyed has
            forbidden the use of machine tools as furniture. Putting one on the
            porch would be "crowded", to say the least. So a planer/jointer is
            obviously out of the question.

            I've been mentally toying with something like a pair of planes with
            "mirror-image" blades - as soon as I get a little ahead of the curve on
            bills, I'll probably try making them.

            In the meantime, is there anything out there that will do the job? Or
            should I just resign myself to a hammer, a chisel, and possibly a few
            passes with a circular saw?

            Obviously, I'm not averse to working up a good sweat, and prefer doing
            it "by hand" anyway. I just want to do it "by hand" quickly. :-)

            Wolf

            PS: There's always the option of throwing everything in the back of the
            truck and going to visit Brian. Buying a tool is probably cheaper
            though. ;-)



            Tact is for those who aren't witty enough to use sarcasm creatively.

            Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.


            Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

          • WR
            Chas, ... That s what I was afraid of :-) ... ...not to mention that my Lady is usually the one who bandages my experiments with woodworking! Typical
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Chas,

              James Winkler wrote:
              >
              > Ummm... yup... tongue and grove joints made with hammers and chisles and hand planes...
              >
              That's what I was afraid of :-)

              > Your lady sounds like a highly inspirational laurel who is encouraging you to develop the medieval skill set that will allow you to aquire some REALLY COOL TOOLS down the road...
              >

              ...not to mention that my Lady is usually the one who bandages my
              "experiments" with woodworking! Typical conversation:

              Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
              She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
              Me: "It's just a scratch."
              She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
              (conversation usually devolves from this point)

              >
              > .. or barter yer' skills with some itinerant blacksmith...

              Hmmm...
              >
              > Go with the pitch... hand tools rock...

              Yeah, I *really* wish I could've gotten "first dibs" on my grandfather's
              storage building! As it was, I got a draw-knife or two, a 3lb
              cross-peen hammer, and a beaver-tail hammer... Of course, I'd rather
              have my grandfather, but...

              >
              > Know how to get to Carnagy Hall? Yea.... practice, practice... PRACTICE. Speed comes with skill... skill comes with practice.

              I was afraid you were going to say that too. :-)

              > .. and... if all that fails... a trip to Brian's could help...

              ;-)

              > Chas.
              >
              > (... well... maybe ONE OR TWO powertools... )

              One day, when I hit the lottery.....

              Thanks! Looks like time for a new children's book - "Fun With Hammer
              And Chisel!" :-)

              Wolf
            • James Winkler
              ... Me: Hey, that s one sharp chisel! She: Come here, and don t bleed on the carpet. Me: It s just a scratch. She: And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                >> Typical conversation:

                Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
                She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
                Me: "It's just a scratch."
                She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
                (conversation usually devolves from this point)  <<
                 
                LMAO... 
                 
                Yea.. sounds kinda' familiar... 
                 
                Me:  Honey, we have to go to the hospital..
                She: OK
                Me: ... oh... and I won't be fighting in Crown
                She: OK
                 
                ...  true conversation from a number of years ago...
                Interestingly... it wasn't until she was driving me
                to the emergency room that she asked that ever
                popular question, "What happened?"
                 
                ... of course it WUZ' DA' POWER TOOLS THAT
                DID DA' DASTARDLY DEED...  I'd hate to
                bleed on a good blade... 
                 
                Chas.
              • Michael T Combs
                yes make sure you wipe the blood off the blade off right away, you don t want to damage it James Winkler wrote: Typical
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  yes make sure you wipe the blood off the blade off right away, you don't want to damage it

                  James Winkler <jrwinkler@...> wrote:
                  >> Typical conversation:

                  Me: "Hey, that's one sharp chisel!"
                  She: "Come here, and don't bleed on the carpet."
                  Me: "It's just a scratch."
                  She: "And Mount Hood is just a speed-bump!"
                  (conversation usually devolves from this point)  <<
                   
                  LMAO... 
                   
                  Yea.. sounds kinda' familiar... 
                   
                  Me:  Honey, we have to go to the hospital..
                  She: OK
                  Me: ... oh... and I won't be fighting in Crown
                  She: OK
                   
                  ...  true conversation from a number of years ago...
                  Interestingly... it wasn't until she was driving me
                  to the emergency room that she asked that ever
                  popular question, "What happened?"
                   
                  ... of course it WUZ' DA' POWER TOOLS THAT
                  DID DA' DASTARDLY DEED...  I'd hate to
                  bleed on a good blade... 
                   
                  Chas.


                  Building a website is a piece of cake.
                  Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

                • WR
                  Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what I ve been able to gather, I m looking at: A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what
                    I've been able to gather, I'm looking at:

                    A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                    B.) Find a rabbet/plow plane combination;
                    C.) Small table saw.

                    I've already started on A, otherwise I would answer and thank each of
                    you individually. "Speedy Gonzales" I am not, and I've already
                    experienced a couple of blow-outs, but nothing that is irreparable.
                    When cutting down, the chisel went "out" instead of "in" - lesson
                    learned? Slant chisel towards the center to make a "V" cut, and widen
                    from there. Fortunately the box I'm making is for the back of my truck,
                    not an A&S project!

                    I've also done some hunting for the planes mentioned - Colin, plow (or
                    plough) planes are indeed still available new! WoodZone (
                    http://www.woodzone.com/ ) shows two under the "plough" spelling - both
                    by Anant, a company out of India (make of that what you will). As for
                    Rebekah's "cut one side, turn around, cut other side" for the tongue,
                    that'd probably be easier than the "cut both sides" blade I was thinking
                    of! Thanks for that as well. My thought-process was apparently in a
                    rut. :-) I was more in line with Bill's "matched set" of blades.

                    I've got a few on ebay that I'm keeping my eye on. SWMBO will NOT be
                    pleased, but..... Hey, Live Dangerously! :-)

                    Option C. is ironic - I "do" have a small (Dremel-small!) table-saw, but
                    unfortunately it's in storage about 1,000 miles from here.

                    I've also started work on what will hopefully be a wood-body plane.
                    Having never made anything like it before, there will probably be more
                    "error" than "trial", but it'll be fun at the very least!

                    Once again, thank you to all of you. Most importantly, thank you for
                    saying it wasn't a stupid question!

                    Wolf
                  • C N Schwartz
                    You don t have to buy a set of T&G match planes. You could just buy something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane. Stanley made these, and the #48
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You don't have to buy a set of T&G match planes.  You could just buy something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane.  Stanley made these, and the #48 is still kinda cheap in user condition.  High thee to your local antique tool pusher.
                       
                      These tools are self contained into one single item, and work pretty well.  Simple to use, too, even for the ham fisted.  You make the groove, the switch the tool around and make the tongue on another piece and Bob's yer Uncle:.
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of WR
                      Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:43 PM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Really Stupid Hand-tool Question

                      Thank you all for such informative - and quick! - answers. From what
                      I've been able to gather, I'm looking at:

                      A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                      B.) Find a rabbet/plow plane combination;
                      C.) Small table saw.

                      I've already started on A, otherwise I would answer and thank each of
                      you individually. "Speedy Gonzales" I am not, and I've already
                      experienced a couple of blow-outs, but nothing that is irreparable.
                      When cutting down, the chisel went "out" instead of "in" - lesson
                      learned? Slant chisel towards the center to make a "V" cut, and widen
                      from there. Fortunately the box I'm making is for the back of my truck,
                      not an A&S project!

                      I've also done some hunting for the planes mentioned - Colin, plow (or
                      plough) planes are indeed still available new! WoodZone (
                      http://www.woodzone .com/ ) shows two under the "plough" spelling - both
                      by Anant, a company out of India (make of that what you will). As for
                      Rebekah's "cut one side, turn around, cut other side" for the tongue,
                      that'd probably be easier than the "cut both sides" blade I was thinking
                      of! Thanks for that as well. My thought-process was apparently in a
                      rut. :-) I was more in line with Bill's "matched set" of blades.

                      I've got a few on ebay that I'm keeping my eye on. SWMBO will NOT be
                      pleased, but..... Hey, Live Dangerously! :-)

                      Option C. is ironic - I "do" have a small (Dremel-small! ) table-saw, but
                      unfortunately it's in storage about 1,000 miles from here.

                      I've also started work on what will hopefully be a wood-body plane.
                      Having never made anything like it before, there will probably be more
                      "error" than "trial", but it'll be fun at the very least!

                      Once again, thank you to all of you. Most importantly, thank you for
                      saying it wasn't a stupid question!

                      Wolf

                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      This includes a trip down to the Scary Sharp place to get the blades sharp enough to take a curl of wood off the end grain. James Cunningham A.) Spend lots
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 27, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        This includes a trip down to the "Scary Sharp" place to get the blades sharp
                        enough to take a curl of wood off the end grain.

                        James Cunningham

                        A.) Spend lots of time getting to know my chisels on a first-name basis;
                      • Avery Austringer
                        Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture.... When you say hand tool is a router or a circular saw still a hand tool? If so, and you don t want to
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 28, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....

                          When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                          tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                          the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                          http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT

                          Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                          Google had for me.

                          Avery
                        • kjworz@comcast.net
                          Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind... -- -Chris Schwartz Silver
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 28, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind...

                            --
                            -Chris Schwartz
                            Silver Spring, MD

                            -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            From: Avery Austringer <avery1415@...>
                            > Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                            >
                            > When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                            > tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                            > the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                            > http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                            >
                            > Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                            > Google had for me.
                            >
                            > Avery
                          • WR
                            Hmmmmm, thought I saw one of these on ebay... I ll need to double-check, but I ve also got my eye on a Stanley #45 sing, dance, and juggle plane.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 28, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hmmmmm, thought I saw one of these on ebay...

                              I'll need to double-check, but I've also got my eye on a Stanley #45
                              "sing, dance, and juggle" plane.

                              C N Schwartz wrote:
                              > You don't have to buy a set of T&G match planes. You could just buy
                              > something like a push-me/pull-you or a swing arm plane. Stanley made these,
                              > and the #48 is still kinda cheap in user condition. High thee to your local
                              > antique tool pusher.
                              >
                              > These tools are self contained into one single item, and work pretty well.
                              > Simple to use, too, even for the ham fisted. You make the groove, the
                              > switch the tool around and make the tongue on another piece and Bob's yer
                              > Uncle:.
                              >
                              > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan7.htm#num48
                              >
                              > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan13.htm#num148
                            • WR
                              I plan on adding corded tools in the future, but in the meantime I m dealing with the apartment living issue... I can time the hammer-blows and saw-strokes,
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 28, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I plan on adding corded tools in the future, but in the meantime I'm
                                dealing with the "apartment living" issue...

                                I can time the hammer-blows and saw-strokes, but people complain when my
                                circular saw or jig-saw interferes with their "BOOM-chi-chiBOOM-chi-chi"

                                ...and that's a subject so utterly "off-topic" as to not even be in the
                                same universe.

                                But those (and the router to plug them into) are definitely in the "next
                                step" category! "Adjustable" is nice - when I have the room for a full
                                set of "sized" tools, I'll get them, but "adjustable" is workable until
                                then!

                                Wolf

                                Avery Austringer wrote:
                                > Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                                >
                                > When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                                > tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                                > the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                                > http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                                >
                                > Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                                > Google had for me.
                                >
                                > Avery
                              • WR
                                The make-big-mistakes-eat-yer-fingers-off-doubles-as-dinner-table kind is one of those when I hit the lottery items. The portable eat-yer-fingers kind is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 28, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The make-big-mistakes-eat-yer-fingers-off-doubles-as-dinner-table kind
                                  is one of those "when I hit the lottery" items. The portable
                                  eat-yer-fingers kind is coming Real Soon Now.

                                  The kind I'm talking about is more along the lines of "Honey, I'll set
                                  up the barbecue just as soon as I put the B&D ShopMate away!"

                                  Wolf

                                  kjworz@... wrote:
                                  > Which router? The handtool kind or the electrical-eat-yer-fingers kind? I thought they were talking about the handtool kind...
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > -Chris Schwartz
                                  > Silver Spring, MD
                                  >
                                  > -------------- Original message ----------------------
                                  > From: Avery Austringer <avery1415@...>
                                  >> Uh, you made a comment about machines as furniture....
                                  >>
                                  >> When you say "hand tool" is a router or a circular saw still a hand
                                  >> tool? If so, and you don't want to deal with the drudgery of cutting
                                  >> the tounge and groove by hand, you could get a router and one of these:
                                  >> http://www.amazon.com/Freud-99-036-Adjustable-Tongue-Groove/dp/B00006XMTT
                                  >>
                                  >> Note: I did not shop around or anything, just clicked on the first hit
                                  >> Google had for me.
                                  >>
                                  >> Avery
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.