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RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

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  • Flemish Lady
    ... Yeah, but that s just you. There are lots of folks who put stuff in A&S competitions because their peer told them to, they just want it to be seen,
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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      --- Bill McNutt <mcnutt@...> wrote:

      > I LIKE competition.
      >
      >
      >
      > Will
      >
      Yeah, but that's just you. <g> There are lots of
      folks who put stuff in A&S competitions because their
      peer told them to, they just want it to be seen, and
      are just not into the competition part of the process.

      I will also add that, as a judge, I find I can be
      easily influenced by the other judges, especially in
      areas I'm not as familiar with. I don't think that's
      good, just fact. I think the training of judges is
      something that would improve the process.

      As for getting all the experts to judge a category,
      I'd like to see how someone herds those cats.

      Blessings,
      Marthe Elsbeth, OP, OL




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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    • Tracy Swanson
      My thought was that if you have artisans teaching classes, those classes are pre-arranged. If the classes are pre-arranged, you know what areas are available
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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        My thought was that if you have artisans teaching classes, those classes are pre-arranged. If the classes are pre-arranged, you know what areas are available for judging - just rope the teachers into judging. Use what you have. If your class line-up consists of a carver, a costumer, an illuminator and a researcher, then the competitions would be open to carving, garb, illumination and historical research. In this way all of the open categories will have a proper judge who knows his or her subject. For any items outside of the fields, have an A&S show. All it takes is a bit of pre-planning. When asking the various artisans if they will teach, also ask if they are willing to judge. If the competition runs all day long, as most of them do, the judges will have the opportunity to review the work when not teaching classes.
         
        As an artisan, I would be willing to put forth that much extra effort and I believe that most others would as well, especially if they are forewarned.
         
        In Magical Service,
        Malaki
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bill McNutt
        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:51 PM
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

        How do you do that?  Fairecrats in Meridies are always beating the bushes for judges in advance, yet still have to fill categories right up until the last moment.

        Will


        From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Tracy Swanson
        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:48 AM
        To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

        It is true that you cannot please everyone, but there is another possible solution:

        What if the person in charge of A&S at a given event were to pre-arrange the judges and restrict the competition to the areas of the judge's expertise? Admittedly it would take more planning on the part of the A&S-o-crat, but at least those who entered would be assured of being judged by someone who knows more than a little something about the subject. Perhaps such competitions could and should be part of the King's College? At least at that event there would be a higher than usual number of "experts".

        Just a thought...

        In Magical Service,

        Malaki

      • THL Isaac MacDaniel
        The real problem is while some people are qualified to teach a introduction level class they may not be qualified to judge a complex entry. They may know how
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 7, 2007
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          The real problem is while some people are qualified to teach a introduction level class they may not be qualified to judge a complex entry. They may know how to make starting leave project but don't know about the time period or country  ...etc.

          In service
          Isaac MacDaniel

          Tracy Swanson wrote:

          My thought was that if you have artisans teaching classes, those classes are pre-arranged. If the classes are pre-arranged, you know what areas are available for judging - just rope the teachers into judging. Use what you have. If your class line-up consists of a carver, a costumer, an illuminator and a researcher, then the competitions would be open to carving, garb, illumination and historical research. In this way all of the open categories will have a proper judge who knows his or her subject. For any items outside of the fields, have an A&S show. All it takes is a bit of pre-planning. When asking the various artisans if they will teach, also ask if they are willing to judge. If the competition runs all day long, as most of them do, the judges will have the opportunity to review the work when not teaching classes.
           
          As an artisan, I would be willing to put forth that much extra effort and I believe that most others would as well, especially if they are forewarned.
           
          In Magical Service,
          Malaki
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf Of Bill McNutt
          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:51 PM
          To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

          How do you do that?  Fairecrats in Meridies are always beating the bushes for judges in advance, yet still have to fill categories right up until the last moment.

          Will


          From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Tracy Swanson
          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:48 AM
          To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

          It is true that you cannot please everyone, but there is another possible solution:

          What if the person in charge of A&S at a given event were to pre-arrange the judges and restrict the competition to the areas of the judge's expertise? Admittedly it would take more planning on the part of the A&S-o-crat, but at least those who entered would be assured of being judged by someone who knows more than a little something about the subject. Perhaps such competitions could and should be part of the King's College? At least at that event there would be a higher than usual number of "experts".

          Just a thought...

          In Magical Service,

          Malaki


        • gunwaldt
          Gunwaldt here, ... I like competition also. What I dislike is entire events dedicated to A&S competitions, when these events are organized and executed in
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 7, 2007
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            Gunwaldt here,

            Master William wrote:
            > How do you do that? Fairecrats in Meridies are always
            > beating the bushes for judges in advance, yet still
            > have to fill categories right up until the last moment.

            and also wrote:
            > I LIKE competition.

            I like competition also. What I dislike is entire events dedicated to
            A&S competitions, when these events are organized and executed in
            such a fashion as to emphasize the mundanities of modern competitions
            and have no real flavor of any "periodness" to them.

            The issue of finding enough qualified judges comes (partially at
            least) from having so many categories in a single time/location and
            suggests to me that the problem needs to be reformulated. No two
            groups have to "do it" the same way and yet I know of no kingdom that
            doesn't have some kingdom-wide A&S competition held at a single event,
            trying to cram all possible creations into a predefined set of
            categories. Consider diversifying the competitions across all kingdom
            events. Consider limiting the categories to the ones for which you
            can find judges. But firstly, define why you are having the
            competition. I don't think there is a single reason, rather there are
            multiple purposes. I am reminded of different shaped pegs and holes,
            and not every job can be accomplished by a bigger hammer.

            Gunwaldt



            Certainly competitions are period.


            >
            >
            >
            > Will
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Swanson
            > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:48 AM
            > To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question
            >
            >
            >
            > It is true that you cannot please everyone, but there is another
            possible
            > solution:
            >
            >
            >
            > What if the person in charge of A&S at a given event were to
            pre-arrange the
            > judges and restrict the competition to the areas of the judge's
            expertise?
            > Admittedly it would take more planning on the part of the
            A&S-o-crat, but at
            > least those who entered would be assured of being judged by someone who
            > knows more than a little something about the subject. Perhaps such
            > competitions could and should be part of the King's College? At least at
            > that event there would be a higher than usual number of "experts".
            >
            >
            >
            > Just a thought...
            >
            >
            >
            > In Magical Service,
            >
            > Malaki
            >
          • James Winkler
            ... events. Consider limiting the categories to the ones for which you can find judges.
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 7, 2007
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              >> Consider diversifying the competitions across all
              kingdom
              events. Consider limiting the categories to the ones for which you
              can find judges. <<
               
              Hummm... 
               
              #1:  Like it... cool idea.
               
              #2:  Can-o-worms...  I can hear the "you don't love me anymore" arguments warming up in the whining section...  and the "but they got a COOLER event to show their stuff (ie "... the Crown wasn't at mine") than WE get to show OUR stuff...
               
              In spirit I'm with ya'... but I'd hate to be the KMOAS that tries to do it...
               
              If ya' REALLY want the best way to get yer stuff out there...  eschew (cool word, eh?) the competitions...  ain't no real way to compare pieces anyway unless everybody makes the same thing... or at least stays in roughly the same culture/time period...  the BEST way for an artisan to get what they're looking for is to get out there and DO IT.   Set up demos... set up classes... sit by yer' pavillion makin' something.  Set up a craftsman's display where you show off yer' stuff while showing people HOW to make it.  You will get noticed... you will attract like mined craftsmen (who we all know all have their own opinions on how good ya' did and how they would have done it differently..  )...  and, with luck... you'll inspire some other craftsman out there to do ya' one better... and then the fun begins.
               
              I think part of the problem is that everybody is looking for a way to be seen... and not so much really the competition.  How do you compare one of my ol' 6 board chests to a viking wagon???  Who wins?  Any evaluation would have to involve some foundation for comparison.   Oh, yea... you can do the *rating game*... things are scored against some abstract yardstick (common to many "A&S competitions"... but what does it mean in the end?
               
              Nope... again, as my ol' buddy Avery sez', "It ain't a competition... it's an EXHIBITION." 
               
              Become an exhibitionist and you'll get all the feedback yer' heart desires... and you'll get it from enough people to make a proper evaluation of your efforts rather than the random sampling of an A&S Faire.
               
              Chas.
            • Tracy Swanson
              That is already a problem. By adapting methods such as these you would at least know, more or less, what levels the instructors are, for they were asked to
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 7, 2007
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                That is already a problem. By adapting methods such as these you would at least know, more or less, what levels the instructors are, for they were asked to teach in the first place. If they are not up to judging, they do not have to participate in that area.
                 
                I too enjoy competition, for it allows me to se other people's work, as well as getting at least some constructive criticism. The problem with not having competitions are manyfold. It offers a chance to have many various artists in the same time/space continuum, encouraging those and other artists to get out there and create. Sure, you can have shows that so the same thing, but how will you then select an A&S Champion, as most baronies do? The truth is, more people will show up for a competition than for a show due to the potential for recognition and prizes. Too many artists of the current age go unnoticed, and I have yet to find a patron, for those too are in seriously short supply these days. Probably only some of the reasons why we do the competitions
                 
                In Magical Service,
                Malaki
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of THL Isaac MacDaniel
                Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:57 AM
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

                The real problem is while some people are qualified to teach a introduction level class they may not be qualified to judge a complex entry. They may know how to make starting leave project but don't know about the time period or country  ...etc.

                In service
                Isaac MacDaniel

                Tracy Swanson wrote:

                My thought was that if you have artisans teaching classes, those classes are pre-arranged. If the classes are pre-arranged, you know what areas are available for judging - just rope the teachers into judging. Use what you have. If your class line-up consists of a carver, a costumer, an illuminator and a researcher, then the competitions would be open to carving, garb, illumination and historical research. In this way all of the open categories will have a proper judge who knows his or her subject. For any items outside of the fields, have an A&S show. All it takes is a bit of pre-planning. When asking the various artisans if they will teach, also ask if they are willing to judge. If the competition runs all day long, as most of them do, the judges will have the opportunity to review the work when not teaching classes.
                 
                As an artisan, I would be willing to put forth that much extra effort and I believe that most others would as well, especially if they are forewarned.
                 
                In Magical Service,
                Malaki
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com]On Behalf Of Bill McNutt
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:51 PM
                To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

                How do you do that?  Fairecrats in Meridies are always beating the bushes for judges in advance, yet still have to fill categories right up until the last moment.

                Will


                From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Tracy Swanson
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:48 AM
                To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

                It is true that you cannot please everyone, but there is another possible solution:

                What if the person in charge of A&S at a given event were to pre-arrange the judges and restrict the competition to the areas of the judge's expertise? Admittedly it would take more planning on the part of the A&S-o-crat, but at least those who entered would be assured of being judged by someone who knows more than a little something about the subject. Perhaps such competitions could and should be part of the King's College? At least at that event there would be a higher than usual number of "experts".

                Just a thought...

                In Magical Service,

                Malaki


              • Rhys Terafan Greydragon
                Greetings all from Terafan, ... other ... You are absolutely right! This is where I have had some of the most fun and created some of the coolest stuff! For
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 9, 2007
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                  Greetings all from Terafan,
                   
                     Master Charles said:
                   
                  >...get out there and
                  DO IT.   ...  and, with luck... you'll inspire some other
                  > craftsman out
                  there to do ya' one better... and then the fun begins.
                   
                  You are absolutely right!   This is where I have had some of the most fun and created some of the coolest stuff!  
                   
                  For about 10 years, I have had running "make spiff stuff" competitions with both Sir Kragon (from the Outlands) and Sir Dafydd ap Gwystl (from Atlantia).  They do one thing, and show it to me.  It is really cool, and I say "Wow !  That rocks! " ... but then I think that if if I *did X* then I could make one even spiffier and so I go off and do that.  Later on, I make some other cool item, and show it to them, and I can hear the gears in their minds going "Wow!  That rocks! ... but if I did X then I could make one even spiffier" and *they* go do that. 
                   
                  Nobody else cares except us, but *we* each like the encouragement to make our encampments spiffier, and we get all sorts of praise and wondrous comments whenever someone else comes wandering through the encampment checking things out. 
                   
                  cheers,
                     Terafan
                   
                  Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon    terafan@...
                  Brewer, Tent and Furniture makers, and other things I can't remember...
                   
                   

                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Winkler
                  Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:05 PM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Some thoughts on this judging question

                  >> Consider diversifying the competitions across all
                  kingdom
                  events. Consider limiting the categories to the ones for which you
                  can find judges. <<
                   
                  Hummm... 
                   
                  #1:  Like it... cool idea.
                   
                  #2:  Can-o-worms. ..  I can hear the "you don't love me anymore" arguments warming up in the whining section...  and the "but they got a COOLER event to show their stuff (ie "... the Crown wasn't at mine") than WE get to show OUR stuff...
                   
                  In spirit I'm with ya'... but I'd hate to be the KMOAS that tries to do it...
                   
                  If ya' REALLY want the best way to get yer stuff out there...  eschew (cool word, eh?) the competitions. ..  ain't no real way to compare pieces anyway unless everybody makes the same thing... or at least stays in roughly the same culture/time period...  the BEST way for an artisan to get what they're looking for is to get out there and DO IT.   Set up demos... set up classes... sit by yer' pavillion makin' something.  Set up a craftsman's display where you show off yer' stuff while showing people HOW to make it.  You will get noticed... you will attract like mined craftsmen (who we all know all have their own opinions on how good ya' did and how they would have done it differently. .  )...  and, with luck... you'll inspire some other craftsman out there to do ya' one better... and then the fun begins.
                   
                  I think part of the problem is that everybody is looking for a way to be seen... and not so much really the competition.  How do you compare one of my ol' 6 board chests to a viking wagon???  Who wins?  Any evaluation would have to involve some foundation for comparison.   Oh, yea... you can do the *rating game*... things are scored against some abstract yardstick (common to many "A&S competitions" ... but what does it mean in the end?
                   
                  Nope... again, as my ol' buddy Avery sez', "It ain't a competition. .. it's an EXHIBITION." 
                   
                  Become an exhibitionist and you'll get all the feedback yer' heart desires... and you'll get it from enough people to make a proper evaluation of your efforts rather than the random sampling of an A&S Faire.
                   
                  Chas.

                • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                  This kinda thing can also go into the area of SCA-useful.... ( you can t document it, you can t enter an A&S competition with it.... but who cares it s just
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 9, 2007
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                    This kinda thing can also go into the area of
                    SCA-useful.... ( you can't document it, you can't
                    enter an A&S competition with it.... but who cares
                    it's just too cool not to do....)

                    I love SCA-useful.



                     
                    Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart

                    Aude Aliquid Dignum
                    ' Dare Something Worthy '


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Rhys Terafan Greydragon <terafan@...>
                    To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2007 10:33:00 AM
                    Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] Some thoughts on this judging question

                    Greetings all from Terafan,
                     
                       Master Charles said:
                     
                    >...get out there and
                    DO IT.   ....  and, with luck... you'll inspire some other
                    > craftsman out
                    there to do ya' one better... and then the fun begins.
                     
                    You are absolutely right!   This is where I have had some of the most fun and created some of the coolest stuff!  
                     
                    For about 10 years, I have had running "make spiff stuff" competitions with both Sir Kragon (from the Outlands) and Sir Dafydd ap Gwystl (from Atlantia).  They do one thing, and show it to me.  It is really cool, and I say "Wow !  That rocks! " ... but then I think that if if I *did X* then I could make one even spiffier and so I go off and do that.  Later on, I make some other cool item, and show it to them, and I can hear the gears in their minds going "Wow!  That rocks! ... but if I did X then I could make one even spiffier" and *they* go do that. 
                     
                    Nobody else cares except us, but *we* each like the encouragement to make our encampments spiffier, and we get all sorts of praise and wondrous comments whenever someone else comes wandering through the encampment checking things out. 
                     
                    cheers,
                       Terafan
                     
                    Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon    terafan@greydragon. org
                    Brewer, Tent and Furniture makers, and other things I can't remember...
                     
                     

                    From: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:medievalsaw dust@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of James Winkler
                    Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:05 PM
                    To: medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [MedievalSawdust] Re: Some thoughts on this judging question

                    >> Consider diversifying the competitions across all kingdom
                    events. Consider limiting the categories to the ones for which you
                    can find judges. <<
                     
                    Hummm... 
                     
                    #1:  Like it... cool idea.
                     
                    #2:  Can-o-worms. ..  I can hear the "you don't love me anymore" arguments warming up in the whining section...  and the "but they got a COOLER event to show their stuff (ie "... the Crown wasn't at mine") than WE get to show OUR stuff...
                     
                    In spirit I'm with ya'... but I'd hate to be the KMOAS that tries to do it...
                     
                    If ya' REALLY want the best way to get yer stuff out there...  eschew (cool word, eh?) the competitions. ..  ain't no real way to compare pieces anyway unless everybody makes the same thing... or at least stays in roughly the same culture/time period...  the BEST way for an artisan to get what they're looking for is to get out there and DO IT.   Set up demos... set up classes... sit by yer' pavillion makin' something.  Set up a craftsman's display where you show off yer' stuff while showing people HOW to make it.  You will get noticed... you will attract like mined craftsmen (who we all know all have their own opinions on how good ya' did and how they would have done it differently. .  )...  and, with luck... you'll inspire some other craftsman out there to do ya' one better... and then the fun begins.
                     
                    I think part of the problem is that everybody is looking for a way to be seen... and not so much really the competition.  How do you compare one of my ol' 6 board chests to a viking wagon???  Who wins?  Any evaluation would have to involve some foundation for comparison.   Oh, yea... you can do the *rating game*... things are scored against some abstract yardstick (common to many "A&S competitions" ... but what does it mean in the end?
                     
                    Nope... again, as my ol' buddy Avery sez', "It ain't a competition. .. it's an EXHIBITION." 
                     
                    Become an exhibitionist and you'll get all the feedback yer' heart desires... and you'll get it from enough people to make a proper evaluation of your efforts rather than the random sampling of an A&S Faire.
                     
                    Chas.




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