>It would not be unreasonable to do much the sameThe West Kingdom land fund has been around for decades,
>thing as to buying land and erecting buildings
>in various large kingdoms and baronies within the SCA.
>I have heard of a Kingdom site fund in the West Kingdom ...
and has not kept pace with the cost of land. I have long
maintained that another avenue we should investigate for long
term (not "permanent") sites are long-term leases. A number
of larger renaissance faires are held on leased rather than
owned properties, or (in the case of Maryland) on properties
purchased after leasing. The US Army Corps of Engineers
leases sites around some of their projects to non-profits on
low cost 99-year leases. It is common in this part of the US
to lease land for hunting camps from timber companies, and an
SCA member in Alabama has recently purchased 60 or 80 acres
adjoining a national forest with plans for a permanent site.
I started investigating leases in the Hartwell Lake
project on the border between Georgia and South Carolina with
and eye toward a site that could be used by various living
history groups, but the process came to a halt after 9/11 --
the people I was working with were tasked with various
security-related projects involving the various Corps
projects. It should be time to start investigating again,
however. The Hartwell project is reviewing its leases
because some of the sites are being used improperly (for
permanent residences) and some have not been used at all.
So, how many acres would be reasonable for a primitive
living history camp? What sort of permanent facilities would
be required? Or nice to have? Right now I'm using an
existing Boy Scout camp as a model -- it has one building and
one roofed pavilion, port-a-jons (regular and handicapped),
cold running water, scattered campsites with fire pits, a
boat dock, a parking lot and a permanent manager living on
site. And a gorgeous view of the lake.
- You might be interested in the Tirion castle project in Talladega, Alabama.
We are buliding an SCA/living history museum/castle and we have a list for
it. Check it out:
Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick
"If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."
>> Magnus wrote:This discussion originally started on one of the Regia
>>It would not be unreasonable to do much the same
>>thing as to buying land and erecting buildings
>>in various large kingdoms and baronies within the SCA.
>>I have heard of a Kingdom site fund in the West Kingdom ...
> Tracie Brown wrote:
> The West Kingdom land fund has been around for decades,
> and has not kept pace with the cost of land.
lists and has also being had for quite some time periodically
on the Authenticity@yahoogroups.com list as the listowner
is in the process of financing and planning a site.
BHFI I believe. Some place in the Mid-west.
> I have longThat is a very interesting idea. One has to keep in mind
> maintained that another avenue we should investigate for long
> term (not "permanent") sites are long-term leases. A number
> of larger renaissance faires are held on leased rather than
> owned properties, or (in the case of Maryland) on properties
> purchased after leasing. The US Army Corps of Engineers
> leases sites around some of their projects to non-profits on
> low cost 99-year leases. It is common in this part of the US
> to lease land for hunting camps from timber companies, and an
> SCA member in Alabama has recently purchased 60 or 80 acres
> adjoining a national forest with plans for a permanent site.
though that eventually the land owner will own any permanent
structure unless you are obligated to take it down.
In our state - North Carolina - it cannot be removed
without the landlord's consent. The Hong Kong 150 year
forced lease eventually ran out. Still that was well
past their time. They probably had no idea what it
actually would become with time. Our remote areas
are becoming much more metropolitan here now in
the Chapel Hill/Durham/Raleigh, NC area.
> I started investigating leases in the Hartwell LakeWe have Federal Parks on two of our large reservoirs
> project on the border between Georgia and South Carolina with
> and eye toward a site that could be used by various living
> history groups, but the process came to a halt after 9/11 --
> the people I was working with were tasked with various
> security-related projects involving the various Corps
> projects. It should be time to start investigating again,
> however. The Hartwell project is reviewing its leases
> because some of the sites are being used improperly (for
> permanent residences) and some have not been used at all.
here that are relatively new. Unfortunately the State
Park nearby is right in the middle of the high value
area for business and airporting. Research Triangle and all.
We know that someone would have to live on site and
that it will have to be maintained/mowed regularly.
My thought was a retired military couple.
Fort Bragg and Seymour Johnson Air Force Base aren't
too far and they have lots of retirees who were formerly
responsible folks on government pensions. Looking after
something in return for housing might look good to
someone who is good for us to have.
> So, how many acres would be reasonable for a primitiveDepends on how large you can afford and forsee the project
> living history camp? What sort of permanent facilities would
> be required? Or nice to have?
needing. If one intended to hold a regional war then one
would need more facilities and land. To begin with around
here we need a site for at least 600 currently once or
more times per year.
> Right now I'm using anI had an hour discussion with another interested party here
> existing Boy Scout camp as a model -- it has one building and
> one roofed pavilion, port-a-jons (regular and handicapped),
> cold running water, scattered campsites with fire pits, a
> boat dock, a parking lot and a permanent manager living on
> site. And a gorgeous view of the lake.
> -- Signy
this morning. What would be initially important is the
kitchen/bathrooms/showers area and to begin to build out
from there further down the building's length as needed.
The pipes would have to be warm during the winter or
drained. I'm thinking propane tanks initially.
I like the Australian idea of a timberframed building with
short upper story walls under a 12/12 roof maximizing space.
Lochac has a timberframe already up on a site put together
by SCA affilliated members.
However, timberframes are expensive, so I think standard
framing with Hardi-board (a cement and paper mix) that has
a stucco finish for the exterior walls painted parchment
or off-white for the wall framing's simulated infill
whose joints would be covered with 1x4" or 6" chocolate
or black paint for the simulated timber framing as we
could afford to expand it.
Hardiboard and Hardi-plank have a 25 year guarantee.
Termites have no interest in it. I've built a yard
building on the same principles using as heavy framing
as a standard structure due to size affecting building
code and the possibility of tree falls. So I have used it.
It screws to the framing with special cement board
screws similar to sheetrock screws but with cutting
teeth under the heads.
The Roof for the main hall area could go up first and be
used as a screened in area until we have time and funds
to enclose it. They now make asphalt shingles with 25
or thirty year warranties that resemble the finish of
traditional wood shingled roofs. Pretty low maintenance
Doing such things we would end up with a sort-of timber
framed later medieval look at a reasonable cost in
a manner that we could expand.
In my case the windows of the yard building and it's
door were done in simulated diamond fashion by cutting
the window film into a framework, spray painting the diamond
window frame in place, removing the film, and for privacy
I had tried sandblasting two of them first and sprayed the
other two after painting the frame with a [bathroom glass]
simulated etched glass spray you can buy at your local
Home Depot. The look was -very- similar either way.
Of course on the main hall you would like to see out.
Perhaps glass painters or stained glass artists would
like to decorate some of them. Say behind high table.
The lower part of my 2 x 10" floor base banding was covered
with a chocolate colored brown aluminum flashing which
extended below the hardi-plank and the overlaying
simulated framing To make for a cohesive look. The
color of the flashing determined the framing color for
us. There are horizontal boards at appropriate places
much as one would find them on a real timber-framed
building. The only problem I have had with this system
is the resin in some knots baking out in the hot
southern summer through the paint. We did spray them
with shellac first to prevent bleeding, so not all
the knots have been a problem. Maybe five percent.
The inside could be sheetrocked fairly quickly and
top coated with a stucco finish that you wouldn't
need to sand as much as regular sheetrock in order to
get the feel of wattle and daub plaster overlay.
Simply mount interior framing over the joints
and across the ceiling. Caulk the seams and paint.
I saw a really neat idea in The Archeology of York
the Small Finds 17/15 Craft, Industry, and Everyday
Life: Finds from Medieval York. Avaiable from
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/ or the York Archaeological
Trust. In this case there were cast fleur-de-lys
and golden painted twisted star made to adorn
ceilings and walls. I have seen many medieval ceilings
in my books and Blue background with Golden Stars
makes a lovely ceiling. On others the main beams were
painted with various designs, including people. ;)
These don't have to be real, they can be applied.
In fact the stars or the fleur-de-lys could almost
as easily be cast in an rtv rubber mold of plaster
and applied. The metal ones were nailed in.
If the building were built into a slope the underside
could serve as a storage basement while the top floor
could be resident caretaker and general dormitory/indoor
workshop for the group.
If precious things are removed and locked on the upper
floor and storage is beneath the lower then you can
have a hall rentable for various group activities when
you are not using it for your own group's uses.
A summer day camp for kids.
A site for a medieval/renaissance faire [We have three
here in NC in Asheville, Charlotte, and Raleigh. The
Charlotte one lasts eight weekends.]
A rental hall for weekly bingo shared with a non-profit
charity or church, which is what I understand the
Denver group has done. One Legion Hall had a member
I worked with and they  apparently took in enough
every bingo nite they were pocketing $100 each per night.
I mean if you have the potential to make that much
to sidetrack, the real money must have been amazing.
That is in rather a small community too. Haven't seen
him since we both disabled nine years ago. Statute of
limitations and all...
Wars with neighboring baronies/kingdoms.
Alternate medieval groups could use the site as well.
I really don't think anyone wants SCA, Inc. managing
anything. On the other hand we have core SCA members
who are devout medievalists.
It would be very nice if we had all amenities
on a central site that we needed for our events
and didn't have to haul them everywhere or take
things like tents down immediately in unfortunate
weather. All the cooking and serving vessels and a
place to prepare the feasts central to our area.
Less movement and hurry for everyone.
A cap on rising event costs for sites that are growing
too small too fast.
22 years ago my barony had 30-40 members.
Now it is closer to 500 and for larger kingdom
events hosted here it is getting simply too large
for many sites.
A Retreat available for those needing some space.
My sister in law regularly attends one called
An event site rentable for companies/churches' holidays.
For example the camping ground could be used as
a ballfield, the archery area could be used
prior to hunting season by bowhunters who have
scant else in my area anymore to shoot. When I
was much younger I shot both tournament and
field target archery courses strung through
the woods. So could they.
The eric, or fighting field, could become a
badminton or volley ball court during rentals.
I have an image of one surrounded by an open roofed area.
One quarter or two ends of which could be two story for
the high ladies and lords seats much like the scenes
of the tournaments in the Manesse Codex.
I also have an idea of the back of the covered
area in some places housing such things as
an armor workshop, a smithy, woodworking stuff, etc.
Localized merchants could even have permanent booths.
Regular canton or Baronial workshops could be held
there for anything from tentmaking to beading,
to dance, to garb and armor-making. We have five
Cantons in our very cohesive large Barony and
many more members in outlying areas.
-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Permanent SitesThank You.
>Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:43:56 -0500
>From: "Caley Woulfe" <caoillainn@...>
> You might be interested in the Tirion castle project in
> Talladega, Alabama. We are buliding an SCA/living
> history museum/castle and we have a list for it. Check it out:
> Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-wolf of Limerick
> "If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..."