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Re: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?

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  • Stefan von Kiel
    I ll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a friend s booth, Northstar Armoury. I m only going for a few days around the
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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      I'll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a
      friend's booth, Northstar Armoury. I'm only going for a few days around the
      middle weekend.



      Stefan von Kiel
      Dwarven Axe Armoury
      www.dwarvenaxe.com





      ----Original Message Follows----
      From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
      Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?
      Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:05:06 -0700

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    • Hal and Julia
      Hi there folks, I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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        Hi there folks,
         
        I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.
         
        In service
        Hal Raeburn
         
      • Joseph Hayes
        I know there s a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I m not looking to make a
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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          I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
          some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I'm not
          looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
          work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA.

          So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
          not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
          of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

          Here's the piece:
          http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

          I don't remember how long it took to build. It's all wood construction
          (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back. The hinges
          are hand-made. The material is red oak. Any suggestions on how to
          price something like this?

          Thanks,
          Ulrich


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        • Cockerel Woodworks
          Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD. Ulfgar Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery!
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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            Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD.

            Ulfgar

             

            Cockerel Woodworks

            Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

            View our gallery!

            http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Joseph Hayes [mailto:von_landstuhl@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:04 AM
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

             


            I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
            some advice.  How does one go about pricing their work?  I'm not
            looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
            work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA. 

            So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
            not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
            of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

            Here's the piece:
            http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

            I don't remember how long it took to build.  It's all wood construction
            (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back.  The hinges
            are hand-made.  The material is red oak.  Any suggestions on how to
            price something like this?

            Thanks,
            Ulrich


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          • James W. Pratt, Jr.
            My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices. James Cunningham
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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              My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

              James Cunningham
            • Tim Bray
              Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I read and the number of times this question comes up, I m not the only one. Since
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I
                read and the number of times this question comes up, I'm not the only
                one. Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very good and
                well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an hourly rate does
                not apply.

                When you get right down to it, an object is worth what someone will pay for
                it. It's very difficult to figure that out in advance, until you get a lot
                of experience, which will bring a general sense of what people will pay.

                A big part of it is marketing. Two identical pieces of furniture might
                sell for dramatically different prices, depending on how they are
                marketed. The SCA market is notoriously cheap, although there is a very
                small percentage that recognize quality and will pay for it. So you need a
                lot of exposure, in order to get noticed by those people.

                Figure out what you think it's worth, add 25% to 50%, and ask for that. If
                you can't sell it for that, lower the price or do more marketing. Keep
                marketing and adjusting the price until it sells. Then you know exactly
                how to price the next one! :-D

                It's generally easier to lower your price than to raise it. OTOH,
                sometimes *raising* your prices will generate *more* interest in your
                work... bizarre, but sometimes true.

                Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                styles, but nicely done. I probably wouldn't make something like that for
                less than $500, maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                yourself, or buy them?

                Good luck,
                Colin


                Albion Works
                Furniture and Accessories
                For the Medievalist!
                www.albionworks.net
                www.albionworks.com
              • Tim Bray
                ... Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up. Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me. Unless I can persuade Bob
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                  I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.


                  Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up.  Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me.  Unless I can persuade Bob to bring that chest out from Maryland with him...

                  See you there!

                  Colin


                  Albion Works
                  Furniture and Accessories
                  For the Medievalist!
                • Joseph Hayes
                  ... What s a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up the cost of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                    > Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very
                    > good and well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an
                    > hourly rate does not apply.

                    What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no
                    idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up
                    the cost of materials?

                    > The SCA market is notoriously cheap

                    That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                    for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                    > Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                    > styles, but nicely done.

                    Thanks. It's based on two examples. One in "Oak Furniture: The
                    British Tradition" by Chinnery and the other is in the Cleveland Museum
                    of Art. I chose it for the same reasons (I think) as the original
                    builders: It's all boards, no large dimension stiles are needed.

                    > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,

                    Wow, my initial thought $300.

                    > maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                    > yourself, or buy them?

                    I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                    $20. I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                    furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                    right hardware.

                    Ulrich


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                  • Tim Bray
                    ... Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably get about
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                      >My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                      Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was
                      consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably
                      get about $600. That's the power of marketing! ;-)

                      Cheers,
                      Colin


                      Albion Works
                      Furniture and Accessories
                      For the Medievalist!
                      www.albionworks.net
                      www.albionworks.com
                    • Stefan von Kiel
                      I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of hard
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                        I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has
                        all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of
                        hard maple to make a project that will use 6 bf when completed, I use 8 bf
                        in my table since this is what I will have to purchase. I also include
                        expendables like sandpaper, rags, etc. I then use an hourly rate of $20 per
                        hour. I found that once I figure out the cost, it is still reasonably
                        priced. My trestle legs have gone up in price since I now use a mortise &
                        tenon joint to attach the cross support. This has added more time to the
                        construction but the result is a better trestle. People seem to be happy
                        paying a little more for the sturdier trestles.



                        Stefan von Kiel
                        Dwarven Axe Armoury
                        www.dwarvenaxe.com

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                      • Tim Bray
                        ... Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or experience do
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                          >What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage?

                          Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have
                          insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or
                          experience do you have? etc...

                          > I have no
                          >idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns.

                          Depends. Location, experience, market conditions... Right now an
                          entry-level guy in a commercial shop probably won't be getting much more
                          than grunt wages, probably less than $10/hour. An experienced guy in a top
                          market area probably can't get much more than $30/hour. Cabinetmaking is a
                          tough business right now.

                          > Do people mark up
                          >the cost of materials?

                          No, I just build them into my price. What I do is design the piece, make a
                          WAG of how long it will take me to complete, figure out how much I want to
                          make, and add the materials costs plus incidentals. I'm almost always too
                          low - I don't make much over $10/hour most of the time.

                          The way I figure materials is to add up the board footage in the piece, add
                          at least 30% for waste, and add an allowance for consumables (sandpaper,
                          finish, etc.).

                          Your price also has to pay back the cost of your tools, and pay for new
                          blades, power consumption, and a host of other little things that add up.

                          >That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                          >for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                          What I need is a way to turn compliments into cash. A friend suggested I
                          put out a large jar, and charge 25 cents every time someone says "Very nice
                          work, m'lord." :-D

                          Don't get me wrong, I love those compliments, but they are too rarely
                          followed by sales!

                          > > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,
                          >
                          >Wow, my initial thought $300.

                          Two years ago that's probably what I would have said too. But that would
                          be sub-minimum wage, at least for the amount of time I would put into
                          it. If you work faster than me, you can charge less and still make
                          more. I put a _lot_ of time into details and finishing - cutting chamfers,
                          easing edges, sanding and scraping. And as I noted above, there are a lot
                          of expenses that have to get paid out of that price.

                          >I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                          >$20.

                          Give me that guy's name, I want to order a dozen.

                          >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                          >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                          >right hardware.

                          Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                          definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                          too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                          Cheers,
                          Colin




                          Albion Works
                          Furniture and Accessories
                          For the Medievalist!
                          www.albionworks.net
                          www.albionworks.com
                        • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                          Unless there is a lot of carving I ve found that in the SCA you are lucky if you can get twice the cost of materials. I ve been considering trying to find a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                            Unless there is a lot of carving
                            I've found that in the SCA you are
                            lucky if you can get twice the cost
                            of materials.

                            I've been considering trying to find
                            a local store front to do consignment
                            through, there I could get something
                            more like the actual value of the piece.



                            =====
                            Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                            Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                            Aude Aliquid Dignum
                            ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                          • Scott Lane
                            ... I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would be more than willing
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                              > >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                              > >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                              > >right hardware.
                              >Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                              >definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                              >too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                              I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for
                              chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would
                              be more than willing to make more, as well as other hardware. If anyone is
                              interested in traditional forged hardware send me an e-mail at:
                              scotty@...

                              In Service,
                              Aodhfin
                            • Cockerel Woodworks
                              I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I get around this problem? Simple, my prices do not move! They can either pay for the article at full value or not at all. I will not de-value my work, and yes, that is exactly what you do every time you lower your prices. As for the famous bleat of “ I could make that” my answer is always “yes, but have you?” It is amazing how many of these closet artists never produce a thing………….

                                Julian (Incidentally, known as master Ulfgar OL in the SCA, lest I am seen to be bashing it)

                                 

                                Cockerel Woodworks

                                Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                View our gallery!

                                http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart [mailto:baronconal@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2003 8:26 PM
                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                 

                                Unless there is a lot of carving
                                I've found that in the SCA you are
                                lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                of materials.

                                I've been considering trying to find
                                a local store front to do consignment
                                through, there I could get something
                                more like the actual value of the piece.



                                =====
                                Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                   Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                     ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                              • Tim Bray
                                ... Minus the store s commission, of course. Which can be substantial; galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren t getting the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                  >I've been considering trying to find
                                  >a local store front to do consignment
                                  >through, there I could get something
                                  >more like the actual value of the piece.

                                  Minus the store's commission, of course. Which can be substantial;
                                  galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren't
                                  getting the "actual value" if that is the same as the sales price. But a
                                  good gallery _adds value_ to your work, by effectively marketing and
                                  presenting it. And if you count the time and cost of going to events to
                                  sell stuff, on balance you are going to be way ahead letting someone else
                                  do that for a 50% commission. Then you can go to events just to have a
                                  good time, instead of being tied to the booth.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Colin



                                  Albion Works
                                  Furniture and Accessories
                                  For the Medievalist!
                                  www.albionworks.net
                                  www.albionworks.com
                                • Hal and Julia
                                  Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                    Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.
                                     
                                    In service
                                    Hal Raeburn, OL
                                     
                                  • Cockerel Woodworks
                                    Cool, do you have a website? J Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery! http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel ... From:
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                      Cool, do you have a website?

                                      J

                                       

                                      Cockerel Woodworks

                                      Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                      View our gallery!

                                      http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                      Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                       

                                      Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                       

                                      In service

                                      Hal Raeburn, OL

                                       



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                                    • Hal and Julia
                                      No, I have not had the time yet to complete one. Hal ... From: Cockerel Woodworks To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 19, 2003
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                                        No, I have not had the time yet to complete one.
                                         
                                        Hal
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                        Cool, do you have a website?

                                        J

                                         

                                        Cockerel Woodworks

                                        Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                        View our gallery!

                                        http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                         

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                        Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                         

                                        Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                         

                                        In service

                                        Hal Raeburn, OL

                                         



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