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Re: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?

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  • Brian D. Murphy
    I ll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment. Bran Bran Du ap Dafydd Since it s less than a month away now, I thought I d see who is going to be at
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
      I'll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment.
       
      Bran
       
      Bran Du ap Dafydd
       
       

      Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd see who is going to be
      at Pennsic this year.  Looks like I will make it this time (flying not
      driving)!  I won't have a booth myself, but will be hanging out mostly at
      Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks).  Come by and say hello!

      Colin
    • Stefan von Kiel
      I ll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a friend s booth, Northstar Armoury. I m only going for a few days around the
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
        I'll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a
        friend's booth, Northstar Armoury. I'm only going for a few days around the
        middle weekend.



        Stefan von Kiel
        Dwarven Axe Armoury
        www.dwarvenaxe.com





        ----Original Message Follows----
        From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
        Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?
        Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:05:06 -0700

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      • Hal and Julia
        Hi there folks, I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
          Hi there folks,
           
          I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.
           
          In service
          Hal Raeburn
           
        • Joseph Hayes
          I know there s a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I m not looking to make a
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
            I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
            some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I'm not
            looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
            work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA.

            So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
            not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
            of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

            Here's the piece:
            http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

            I don't remember how long it took to build. It's all wood construction
            (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back. The hinges
            are hand-made. The material is red oak. Any suggestions on how to
            price something like this?

            Thanks,
            Ulrich


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          • Cockerel Woodworks
            Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD. Ulfgar Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery!
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003

              Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD.

              Ulfgar

               

              Cockerel Woodworks

              Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

              View our gallery!

              http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Joseph Hayes [mailto:von_landstuhl@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:04 AM
              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

               


              I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
              some advice.  How does one go about pricing their work?  I'm not
              looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
              work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA. 

              So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
              not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
              of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

              Here's the piece:
              http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

              I don't remember how long it took to build.  It's all wood construction
              (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back.  The hinges
              are hand-made.  The material is red oak.  Any suggestions on how to
              price something like this?

              Thanks,
              Ulrich


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            • James W. Pratt, Jr.
              My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices. James Cunningham
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
                My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                James Cunningham
              • Tim Bray
                Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I read and the number of times this question comes up, I m not the only one. Since
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
                  Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I
                  read and the number of times this question comes up, I'm not the only
                  one. Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very good and
                  well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an hourly rate does
                  not apply.

                  When you get right down to it, an object is worth what someone will pay for
                  it. It's very difficult to figure that out in advance, until you get a lot
                  of experience, which will bring a general sense of what people will pay.

                  A big part of it is marketing. Two identical pieces of furniture might
                  sell for dramatically different prices, depending on how they are
                  marketed. The SCA market is notoriously cheap, although there is a very
                  small percentage that recognize quality and will pay for it. So you need a
                  lot of exposure, in order to get noticed by those people.

                  Figure out what you think it's worth, add 25% to 50%, and ask for that. If
                  you can't sell it for that, lower the price or do more marketing. Keep
                  marketing and adjusting the price until it sells. Then you know exactly
                  how to price the next one! :-D

                  It's generally easier to lower your price than to raise it. OTOH,
                  sometimes *raising* your prices will generate *more* interest in your
                  work... bizarre, but sometimes true.

                  Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                  styles, but nicely done. I probably wouldn't make something like that for
                  less than $500, maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                  yourself, or buy them?

                  Good luck,
                  Colin


                  Albion Works
                  Furniture and Accessories
                  For the Medievalist!
                  www.albionworks.net
                  www.albionworks.com
                • Tim Bray
                  ... Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up. Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me. Unless I can persuade Bob
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
                    I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.


                    Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up.  Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me.  Unless I can persuade Bob to bring that chest out from Maryland with him...

                    See you there!

                    Colin


                    Albion Works
                    Furniture and Accessories
                    For the Medievalist!
                  • Joseph Hayes
                    ... What s a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up the cost of
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
                      > Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very
                      > good and well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an
                      > hourly rate does not apply.

                      What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no
                      idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up
                      the cost of materials?

                      > The SCA market is notoriously cheap

                      That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                      for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                      > Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                      > styles, but nicely done.

                      Thanks. It's based on two examples. One in "Oak Furniture: The
                      British Tradition" by Chinnery and the other is in the Cleveland Museum
                      of Art. I chose it for the same reasons (I think) as the original
                      builders: It's all boards, no large dimension stiles are needed.

                      > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,

                      Wow, my initial thought $300.

                      > maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                      > yourself, or buy them?

                      I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                      $20. I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                      furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                      right hardware.

                      Ulrich


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                    • Tim Bray
                      ... Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably get about
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
                        >My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                        Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was
                        consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably
                        get about $600. That's the power of marketing! ;-)

                        Cheers,
                        Colin


                        Albion Works
                        Furniture and Accessories
                        For the Medievalist!
                        www.albionworks.net
                        www.albionworks.com
                      • Stefan von Kiel
                        I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of hard
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
                          I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has
                          all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of
                          hard maple to make a project that will use 6 bf when completed, I use 8 bf
                          in my table since this is what I will have to purchase. I also include
                          expendables like sandpaper, rags, etc. I then use an hourly rate of $20 per
                          hour. I found that once I figure out the cost, it is still reasonably
                          priced. My trestle legs have gone up in price since I now use a mortise &
                          tenon joint to attach the cross support. This has added more time to the
                          construction but the result is a better trestle. People seem to be happy
                          paying a little more for the sturdier trestles.



                          Stefan von Kiel
                          Dwarven Axe Armoury
                          www.dwarvenaxe.com

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                        • Tim Bray
                          ... Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or experience do
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
                            >What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage?

                            Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have
                            insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or
                            experience do you have? etc...

                            > I have no
                            >idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns.

                            Depends. Location, experience, market conditions... Right now an
                            entry-level guy in a commercial shop probably won't be getting much more
                            than grunt wages, probably less than $10/hour. An experienced guy in a top
                            market area probably can't get much more than $30/hour. Cabinetmaking is a
                            tough business right now.

                            > Do people mark up
                            >the cost of materials?

                            No, I just build them into my price. What I do is design the piece, make a
                            WAG of how long it will take me to complete, figure out how much I want to
                            make, and add the materials costs plus incidentals. I'm almost always too
                            low - I don't make much over $10/hour most of the time.

                            The way I figure materials is to add up the board footage in the piece, add
                            at least 30% for waste, and add an allowance for consumables (sandpaper,
                            finish, etc.).

                            Your price also has to pay back the cost of your tools, and pay for new
                            blades, power consumption, and a host of other little things that add up.

                            >That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                            >for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                            What I need is a way to turn compliments into cash. A friend suggested I
                            put out a large jar, and charge 25 cents every time someone says "Very nice
                            work, m'lord." :-D

                            Don't get me wrong, I love those compliments, but they are too rarely
                            followed by sales!

                            > > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,
                            >
                            >Wow, my initial thought $300.

                            Two years ago that's probably what I would have said too. But that would
                            be sub-minimum wage, at least for the amount of time I would put into
                            it. If you work faster than me, you can charge less and still make
                            more. I put a _lot_ of time into details and finishing - cutting chamfers,
                            easing edges, sanding and scraping. And as I noted above, there are a lot
                            of expenses that have to get paid out of that price.

                            >I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                            >$20.

                            Give me that guy's name, I want to order a dozen.

                            >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                            >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                            >right hardware.

                            Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                            definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                            too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                            Cheers,
                            Colin




                            Albion Works
                            Furniture and Accessories
                            For the Medievalist!
                            www.albionworks.net
                            www.albionworks.com
                          • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                            Unless there is a lot of carving I ve found that in the SCA you are lucky if you can get twice the cost of materials. I ve been considering trying to find a
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
                              Unless there is a lot of carving
                              I've found that in the SCA you are
                              lucky if you can get twice the cost
                              of materials.

                              I've been considering trying to find
                              a local store front to do consignment
                              through, there I could get something
                              more like the actual value of the piece.



                              =====
                              Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                              Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                              Aude Aliquid Dignum
                              ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                            • Scott Lane
                              ... I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would be more than willing
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
                                > >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                                > >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                                > >right hardware.
                                >Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                                >definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                                >too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                                I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for
                                chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would
                                be more than willing to make more, as well as other hardware. If anyone is
                                interested in traditional forged hardware send me an e-mail at:
                                scotty@...

                                In Service,
                                Aodhfin
                              • Cockerel Woodworks
                                I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003

                                  I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I get around this problem? Simple, my prices do not move! They can either pay for the article at full value or not at all. I will not de-value my work, and yes, that is exactly what you do every time you lower your prices. As for the famous bleat of “ I could make that” my answer is always “yes, but have you?” It is amazing how many of these closet artists never produce a thing………….

                                  Julian (Incidentally, known as master Ulfgar OL in the SCA, lest I am seen to be bashing it)

                                   

                                  Cockerel Woodworks

                                  Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                  View our gallery!

                                  http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                   

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart [mailto:baronconal@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2003 8:26 PM
                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                   

                                  Unless there is a lot of carving
                                  I've found that in the SCA you are
                                  lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                  of materials.

                                  I've been considering trying to find
                                  a local store front to do consignment
                                  through, there I could get something
                                  more like the actual value of the piece.



                                  =====
                                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                  Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                     Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                       ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                • Tim Bray
                                  ... Minus the store s commission, of course. Which can be substantial; galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren t getting the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
                                    >I've been considering trying to find
                                    >a local store front to do consignment
                                    >through, there I could get something
                                    >more like the actual value of the piece.

                                    Minus the store's commission, of course. Which can be substantial;
                                    galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren't
                                    getting the "actual value" if that is the same as the sales price. But a
                                    good gallery _adds value_ to your work, by effectively marketing and
                                    presenting it. And if you count the time and cost of going to events to
                                    sell stuff, on balance you are going to be way ahead letting someone else
                                    do that for a 50% commission. Then you can go to events just to have a
                                    good time, instead of being tied to the booth.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Colin



                                    Albion Works
                                    Furniture and Accessories
                                    For the Medievalist!
                                    www.albionworks.net
                                    www.albionworks.com
                                  • Hal and Julia
                                    Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
                                      Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.
                                       
                                      In service
                                      Hal Raeburn, OL
                                       
                                    • Cockerel Woodworks
                                      Cool, do you have a website? J Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery! http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003

                                        Cool, do you have a website?

                                        J

                                         

                                        Cockerel Woodworks

                                        Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                        View our gallery!

                                        http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                         

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                        Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                        To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                         

                                        Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                         

                                        In service

                                        Hal Raeburn, OL

                                         



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                                      • Hal and Julia
                                        No, I have not had the time yet to complete one. Hal ... From: Cockerel Woodworks To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 19, 2003
                                          No, I have not had the time yet to complete one.
                                           
                                          Hal
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                          Cool, do you have a website?

                                          J

                                           

                                          Cockerel Woodworks

                                          Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                          View our gallery!

                                          http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                           

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                          Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                           

                                          Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                           

                                          In service

                                          Hal Raeburn, OL

                                           



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