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Re: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?

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  • GrimaldR@aol.com
    As will I. I ll be camped with Silver Channel
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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      As will I. I'll be camped with Silver Channel
    • Alessandro dEste
      ... going to be ... not ... mostly at ... My lady and I will not be able to make Pennsic this year,Tho we had made plans to do so. (It would have been our
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bray <tbray@m...> wrote:
        > Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd see who is
        going to be
        > at Pennsic this year. Looks like I will make it this time (flying
        not
        > driving)! I won't have a booth myself, but will be hanging out
        mostly at
        > Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks). Come by and say hello!
        >
        > Colin
        >

        My lady and I will not be able to make Pennsic this year,Tho we had
        made plans to do so. (It would have been our first)
        The cost is what is keeping us from attending.
        Most of our gear we have had to replace do to the flooding this year.
        Even our gear trailer was effected by the high waters here in north
        central Indiana.I wanted new camp box's and furniture but did not
        plan on having to make all new so soon. Thank heavens our new pather
        marquie was up in the house and not out in the trailer.
        Next year we will be there "Hell or High Water"lol
        IYS.
        Alessandro dEste
      • Brian D. Murphy
        I ll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment. Bran Bran Du ap Dafydd Since it s less than a month away now, I thought I d see who is going to be at
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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          I'll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment.
           
          Bran
           
          Bran Du ap Dafydd
           
           

          Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd see who is going to be
          at Pennsic this year.  Looks like I will make it this time (flying not
          driving)!  I won't have a booth myself, but will be hanging out mostly at
          Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks).  Come by and say hello!

          Colin
        • Stefan von Kiel
          I ll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a friend s booth, Northstar Armoury. I m only going for a few days around the
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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            I'll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a
            friend's booth, Northstar Armoury. I'm only going for a few days around the
            middle weekend.



            Stefan von Kiel
            Dwarven Axe Armoury
            www.dwarvenaxe.com





            ----Original Message Follows----
            From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
            Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?
            Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:05:06 -0700

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          • Hal and Julia
            Hi there folks, I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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              Hi there folks,
               
              I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.
               
              In service
              Hal Raeburn
               
            • Joseph Hayes
              I know there s a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I m not looking to make a
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
                some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I'm not
                looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
                work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA.

                So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
                not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
                of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

                Here's the piece:
                http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

                I don't remember how long it took to build. It's all wood construction
                (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back. The hinges
                are hand-made. The material is red oak. Any suggestions on how to
                price something like this?

                Thanks,
                Ulrich


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              • Cockerel Woodworks
                Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD. Ulfgar Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery!
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                  Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD.

                  Ulfgar

                   

                  Cockerel Woodworks

                  Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                  View our gallery!

                  http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Joseph Hayes [mailto:von_landstuhl@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:04 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                   


                  I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
                  some advice.  How does one go about pricing their work?  I'm not
                  looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
                  work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA. 

                  So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
                  not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
                  of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

                  Here's the piece:
                  http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

                  I don't remember how long it took to build.  It's all wood construction
                  (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back.  The hinges
                  are hand-made.  The material is red oak.  Any suggestions on how to
                  price something like this?

                  Thanks,
                  Ulrich


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                • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                  My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices. James Cunningham
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                    My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                    James Cunningham
                  • Tim Bray
                    Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I read and the number of times this question comes up, I m not the only one. Since
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                      Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I
                      read and the number of times this question comes up, I'm not the only
                      one. Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very good and
                      well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an hourly rate does
                      not apply.

                      When you get right down to it, an object is worth what someone will pay for
                      it. It's very difficult to figure that out in advance, until you get a lot
                      of experience, which will bring a general sense of what people will pay.

                      A big part of it is marketing. Two identical pieces of furniture might
                      sell for dramatically different prices, depending on how they are
                      marketed. The SCA market is notoriously cheap, although there is a very
                      small percentage that recognize quality and will pay for it. So you need a
                      lot of exposure, in order to get noticed by those people.

                      Figure out what you think it's worth, add 25% to 50%, and ask for that. If
                      you can't sell it for that, lower the price or do more marketing. Keep
                      marketing and adjusting the price until it sells. Then you know exactly
                      how to price the next one! :-D

                      It's generally easier to lower your price than to raise it. OTOH,
                      sometimes *raising* your prices will generate *more* interest in your
                      work... bizarre, but sometimes true.

                      Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                      styles, but nicely done. I probably wouldn't make something like that for
                      less than $500, maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                      yourself, or buy them?

                      Good luck,
                      Colin


                      Albion Works
                      Furniture and Accessories
                      For the Medievalist!
                      www.albionworks.net
                      www.albionworks.com
                    • Tim Bray
                      ... Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up. Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me. Unless I can persuade Bob
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                        I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.


                        Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up.  Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me.  Unless I can persuade Bob to bring that chest out from Maryland with him...

                        See you there!

                        Colin


                        Albion Works
                        Furniture and Accessories
                        For the Medievalist!
                      • Joseph Hayes
                        ... What s a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up the cost of
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                          > Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very
                          > good and well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an
                          > hourly rate does not apply.

                          What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no
                          idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up
                          the cost of materials?

                          > The SCA market is notoriously cheap

                          That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                          for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                          > Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                          > styles, but nicely done.

                          Thanks. It's based on two examples. One in "Oak Furniture: The
                          British Tradition" by Chinnery and the other is in the Cleveland Museum
                          of Art. I chose it for the same reasons (I think) as the original
                          builders: It's all boards, no large dimension stiles are needed.

                          > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,

                          Wow, my initial thought $300.

                          > maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                          > yourself, or buy them?

                          I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                          $20. I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                          furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                          right hardware.

                          Ulrich


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                        • Tim Bray
                          ... Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably get about
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                            >My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                            Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was
                            consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably
                            get about $600. That's the power of marketing! ;-)

                            Cheers,
                            Colin


                            Albion Works
                            Furniture and Accessories
                            For the Medievalist!
                            www.albionworks.net
                            www.albionworks.com
                          • Stefan von Kiel
                            I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of hard
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                              I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has
                              all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of
                              hard maple to make a project that will use 6 bf when completed, I use 8 bf
                              in my table since this is what I will have to purchase. I also include
                              expendables like sandpaper, rags, etc. I then use an hourly rate of $20 per
                              hour. I found that once I figure out the cost, it is still reasonably
                              priced. My trestle legs have gone up in price since I now use a mortise &
                              tenon joint to attach the cross support. This has added more time to the
                              construction but the result is a better trestle. People seem to be happy
                              paying a little more for the sturdier trestles.



                              Stefan von Kiel
                              Dwarven Axe Armoury
                              www.dwarvenaxe.com

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                            • Tim Bray
                              ... Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or experience do
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                                >What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage?

                                Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have
                                insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or
                                experience do you have? etc...

                                > I have no
                                >idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns.

                                Depends. Location, experience, market conditions... Right now an
                                entry-level guy in a commercial shop probably won't be getting much more
                                than grunt wages, probably less than $10/hour. An experienced guy in a top
                                market area probably can't get much more than $30/hour. Cabinetmaking is a
                                tough business right now.

                                > Do people mark up
                                >the cost of materials?

                                No, I just build them into my price. What I do is design the piece, make a
                                WAG of how long it will take me to complete, figure out how much I want to
                                make, and add the materials costs plus incidentals. I'm almost always too
                                low - I don't make much over $10/hour most of the time.

                                The way I figure materials is to add up the board footage in the piece, add
                                at least 30% for waste, and add an allowance for consumables (sandpaper,
                                finish, etc.).

                                Your price also has to pay back the cost of your tools, and pay for new
                                blades, power consumption, and a host of other little things that add up.

                                >That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                                >for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                                What I need is a way to turn compliments into cash. A friend suggested I
                                put out a large jar, and charge 25 cents every time someone says "Very nice
                                work, m'lord." :-D

                                Don't get me wrong, I love those compliments, but they are too rarely
                                followed by sales!

                                > > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,
                                >
                                >Wow, my initial thought $300.

                                Two years ago that's probably what I would have said too. But that would
                                be sub-minimum wage, at least for the amount of time I would put into
                                it. If you work faster than me, you can charge less and still make
                                more. I put a _lot_ of time into details and finishing - cutting chamfers,
                                easing edges, sanding and scraping. And as I noted above, there are a lot
                                of expenses that have to get paid out of that price.

                                >I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                                >$20.

                                Give me that guy's name, I want to order a dozen.

                                >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                                >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                                >right hardware.

                                Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                                definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                                too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                                Cheers,
                                Colin




                                Albion Works
                                Furniture and Accessories
                                For the Medievalist!
                                www.albionworks.net
                                www.albionworks.com
                              • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                Unless there is a lot of carving I ve found that in the SCA you are lucky if you can get twice the cost of materials. I ve been considering trying to find a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                  Unless there is a lot of carving
                                  I've found that in the SCA you are
                                  lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                  of materials.

                                  I've been considering trying to find
                                  a local store front to do consignment
                                  through, there I could get something
                                  more like the actual value of the piece.



                                  =====
                                  Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                  Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                  Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                  ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                • Scott Lane
                                  ... I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would be more than willing
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                    > >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                                    > >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                                    > >right hardware.
                                    >Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                                    >definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                                    >too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                                    I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for
                                    chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would
                                    be more than willing to make more, as well as other hardware. If anyone is
                                    interested in traditional forged hardware send me an e-mail at:
                                    scotty@...

                                    In Service,
                                    Aodhfin
                                  • Cockerel Woodworks
                                    I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                      I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I get around this problem? Simple, my prices do not move! They can either pay for the article at full value or not at all. I will not de-value my work, and yes, that is exactly what you do every time you lower your prices. As for the famous bleat of “ I could make that” my answer is always “yes, but have you?” It is amazing how many of these closet artists never produce a thing………….

                                      Julian (Incidentally, known as master Ulfgar OL in the SCA, lest I am seen to be bashing it)

                                       

                                      Cockerel Woodworks

                                      Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                      View our gallery!

                                      http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart [mailto:baronconal@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2003 8:26 PM
                                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                       

                                      Unless there is a lot of carving
                                      I've found that in the SCA you are
                                      lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                      of materials.

                                      I've been considering trying to find
                                      a local store front to do consignment
                                      through, there I could get something
                                      more like the actual value of the piece.



                                      =====
                                      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                      Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                         Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                           ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                    • Tim Bray
                                      ... Minus the store s commission, of course. Which can be substantial; galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren t getting the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                        >I've been considering trying to find
                                        >a local store front to do consignment
                                        >through, there I could get something
                                        >more like the actual value of the piece.

                                        Minus the store's commission, of course. Which can be substantial;
                                        galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren't
                                        getting the "actual value" if that is the same as the sales price. But a
                                        good gallery _adds value_ to your work, by effectively marketing and
                                        presenting it. And if you count the time and cost of going to events to
                                        sell stuff, on balance you are going to be way ahead letting someone else
                                        do that for a 50% commission. Then you can go to events just to have a
                                        good time, instead of being tied to the booth.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Colin



                                        Albion Works
                                        Furniture and Accessories
                                        For the Medievalist!
                                        www.albionworks.net
                                        www.albionworks.com
                                      • Hal and Julia
                                        Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                          Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.
                                           
                                          In service
                                          Hal Raeburn, OL
                                           
                                        • Cockerel Woodworks
                                          Cool, do you have a website? J Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery! http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel ... From:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                            Cool, do you have a website?

                                            J

                                             

                                            Cockerel Woodworks

                                            Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                            View our gallery!

                                            http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                             

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                            To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                             

                                            Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                             

                                            In service

                                            Hal Raeburn, OL

                                             



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                                          • Hal and Julia
                                            No, I have not had the time yet to complete one. Hal ... From: Cockerel Woodworks To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 19, 2003
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                                              No, I have not had the time yet to complete one.
                                               
                                              Hal
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                              Cool, do you have a website?

                                              J

                                               

                                              Cockerel Woodworks

                                              Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                              View our gallery!

                                              http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                               

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                              Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                              To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                               

                                              Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                               

                                              In service

                                              Hal Raeburn, OL

                                               



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