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Re: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?

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  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
    I ll be there! ... ===== Baron Conal O hAirt / Jim Hart Seneschal, Barony of Fenix Aude Aliquid Dignum Dare Something Worthy
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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      I'll be there!


      --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
      > Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd
      > see who is going to be
      > at Pennsic this year. Looks like I will make it
      > this time (flying not
      > driving)! I won't have a booth myself, but will be
      > hanging out mostly at
      > Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks). Come by and
      > say hello!
      >
      > Colin
      >
      >
      > Albion Works
      > Furniture and Accessories
      > For the Medievalist!
      > www.albionworks.net
      > www.albionworks.com
      >
      >


      =====
      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
      Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

      Aude Aliquid Dignum
      ' Dare Something Worthy '

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    • Rob Hicks
      I ll be there, so I should introduce myself. I am Dunstan Bramblette (Rob Hicks) and am currently working at Hal Raeburn s shop and have been rather solid this
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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        I'll be there, so I should introduce myself.
        I am Dunstan Bramblette (Rob Hicks) and am currently
        working at Hal Raeburn's shop and have been rather
        solid this year, but on and off for the last 3 years.

        Me and my lady will be camping with House Raeburn,
        from time to time I should be seen in the Jactance
        booth.

        -Dunstan

        --- Tim Bray <tbray@...> wrote:
        > Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd
        > see who is going to be
        > at Pennsic this year. Looks like I will make it
        > this time (flying not
        > driving)! I won't have a booth myself, but will be
        > hanging out mostly at
        > Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks). Come by and
        > say hello!
        >
        > Colin
        >
        >
        > Albion Works
        > Furniture and Accessories
        > For the Medievalist!
        > www.albionworks.net
        > www.albionworks.com
        >
        >


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      • GrimaldR@aol.com
        As will I. I ll be camped with Silver Channel
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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          As will I. I'll be camped with Silver Channel
        • Alessandro dEste
          ... going to be ... not ... mostly at ... My lady and I will not be able to make Pennsic this year,Tho we had made plans to do so. (It would have been our
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tim Bray <tbray@m...> wrote:
            > Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd see who is
            going to be
            > at Pennsic this year. Looks like I will make it this time (flying
            not
            > driving)! I won't have a booth myself, but will be hanging out
            mostly at
            > Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks). Come by and say hello!
            >
            > Colin
            >

            My lady and I will not be able to make Pennsic this year,Tho we had
            made plans to do so. (It would have been our first)
            The cost is what is keeping us from attending.
            Most of our gear we have had to replace do to the flooding this year.
            Even our gear trailer was effected by the high waters here in north
            central Indiana.I wanted new camp box's and furniture but did not
            plan on having to make all new so soon. Thank heavens our new pather
            marquie was up in the house and not out in the trailer.
            Next year we will be there "Hell or High Water"lol
            IYS.
            Alessandro dEste
          • Brian D. Murphy
            I ll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment. Bran Bran Du ap Dafydd Since it s less than a month away now, I thought I d see who is going to be at
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 13, 2003
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              I'll be there...camping in the Midlands encampment.
               
              Bran
               
              Bran Du ap Dafydd
               
               

              Since it's less than a month away now, I thought I'd see who is going to be
              at Pennsic this year.  Looks like I will make it this time (flying not
              driving)!  I won't have a booth myself, but will be hanging out mostly at
              Renaissance Arts (the T-shirt folks).  Come by and say hello!

              Colin
            • Stefan von Kiel
              I ll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a friend s booth, Northstar Armoury. I m only going for a few days around the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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                I'll be there too. Also without a booth but I will have items for sale in a
                friend's booth, Northstar Armoury. I'm only going for a few days around the
                middle weekend.



                Stefan von Kiel
                Dwarven Axe Armoury
                www.dwarvenaxe.com





                ----Original Message Follows----
                From: Tim Bray <tbray@...>
                Reply-To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pennsic?
                Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:05:06 -0700

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              • Hal and Julia
                Hi there folks, I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 14, 2003
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                  Hi there folks,
                   
                  I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.
                   
                  In service
                  Hal Raeburn
                   
                • Joseph Hayes
                  I know there s a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I m not looking to make a
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                    I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
                    some advice. How does one go about pricing their work? I'm not
                    looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
                    work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA.

                    So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
                    not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
                    of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

                    Here's the piece:
                    http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

                    I don't remember how long it took to build. It's all wood construction
                    (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back. The hinges
                    are hand-made. The material is red oak. Any suggestions on how to
                    price something like this?

                    Thanks,
                    Ulrich


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                  • Cockerel Woodworks
                    Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD. Ulfgar Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery!
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                      Nice. I would probably ask around $500 USD.

                      Ulfgar

                       

                      Cockerel Woodworks

                      Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                      View our gallery!

                      http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Joseph Hayes [mailto:von_landstuhl@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2003 12:04 AM
                      To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                       


                      I know there's a few professionals on the list, so I was hoping to get
                      some advice.  How does one go about pricing their work?  I'm not
                      looking to make a living from furniture sales (cause then it would be
                      work and wouldn't be fun) but I'd like to offset the cost of the SCA. 

                      So far, I've only made one piece that I planned to sell, but between
                      not knowing what to charge and my wife complaining the house has none
                      of my stuff (the cobbler's son has no shoes?), I never sold it.

                      Here's the piece:
                      http://www.midrealm.org/ballaeban/ulrich/ans/chest.jpg

                      I don't remember how long it took to build.  It's all wood construction
                      (pegged), with linenfold front and boarded sides and back.  The hinges
                      are hand-made.  The material is red oak.  Any suggestions on how to
                      price something like this?

                      Thanks,
                      Ulrich


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                    • James W. Pratt, Jr.
                      My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices. James Cunningham
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                        My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                        James Cunningham
                      • Tim Bray
                        Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I read and the number of times this question comes up, I m not the only one. Since
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                          Pricing is really, really difficult. For me anyway, and judging by what I
                          read and the number of times this question comes up, I'm not the only
                          one. Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very good and
                          well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an hourly rate does
                          not apply.

                          When you get right down to it, an object is worth what someone will pay for
                          it. It's very difficult to figure that out in advance, until you get a lot
                          of experience, which will bring a general sense of what people will pay.

                          A big part of it is marketing. Two identical pieces of furniture might
                          sell for dramatically different prices, depending on how they are
                          marketed. The SCA market is notoriously cheap, although there is a very
                          small percentage that recognize quality and will pay for it. So you need a
                          lot of exposure, in order to get noticed by those people.

                          Figure out what you think it's worth, add 25% to 50%, and ask for that. If
                          you can't sell it for that, lower the price or do more marketing. Keep
                          marketing and adjusting the price until it sells. Then you know exactly
                          how to price the next one! :-D

                          It's generally easier to lower your price than to raise it. OTOH,
                          sometimes *raising* your prices will generate *more* interest in your
                          work... bizarre, but sometimes true.

                          Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                          styles, but nicely done. I probably wouldn't make something like that for
                          less than $500, maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                          yourself, or buy them?

                          Good luck,
                          Colin


                          Albion Works
                          Furniture and Accessories
                          For the Medievalist!
                          www.albionworks.net
                          www.albionworks.com
                        • Tim Bray
                          ... Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up. Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me. Unless I can persuade Bob
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 15, 2003
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                            I will be there as normal in booth #164 Jactance stop by we can talk more wood. I would also like to know if people are interested in having critique times, you no, bring pictures or pieces to chat about. Let me know if folks are up for it.


                            Good idea Hal, I will try to bring some photos and look you up.  Wish I could bring some pieces, but logistics are against me.  Unless I can persuade Bob to bring that chest out from Maryland with him...

                            See you there!

                            Colin


                            Albion Works
                            Furniture and Accessories
                            For the Medievalist!
                          • Joseph Hayes
                            ... What s a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up the cost of
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                              > Since you are not trying to make a living at it (for a very
                              > good and well-stated reason), the usual advice about figuring an
                              > hourly rate does not apply.

                              What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage? I have no
                              idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns. Do people mark up
                              the cost of materials?

                              > The SCA market is notoriously cheap

                              That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                              for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                              > Now, about your chest... that looks really good! Kind of a hybrid of
                              > styles, but nicely done.

                              Thanks. It's based on two examples. One in "Oak Furniture: The
                              British Tradition" by Chinnery and the other is in the Cleveland Museum
                              of Art. I chose it for the same reasons (I think) as the original
                              builders: It's all boards, no large dimension stiles are needed.

                              > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,

                              Wow, my initial thought $300.

                              > maybe more depending on those hinges... did you make them
                              > yourself, or buy them?

                              I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                              $20. I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                              furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                              right hardware.

                              Ulrich


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                            • Tim Bray
                              ... Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably get about
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                                >My guess $1000-1200. Go to New York City and look at the prices.

                                Keep in mind that the gallery commission is often around 50%. If it was
                                consigned to a gallery and they sold it for $1200, Ulrich would probably
                                get about $600. That's the power of marketing! ;-)

                                Cheers,
                                Colin


                                Albion Works
                                Furniture and Accessories
                                For the Medievalist!
                                www.albionworks.net
                                www.albionworks.com
                              • Stefan von Kiel
                                I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of hard
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                                  I have always undercharged for my work. I had to create a table that has
                                  all materials that I would have to purchase. If I purchase 8 board feet of
                                  hard maple to make a project that will use 6 bf when completed, I use 8 bf
                                  in my table since this is what I will have to purchase. I also include
                                  expendables like sandpaper, rags, etc. I then use an hourly rate of $20 per
                                  hour. I found that once I figure out the cost, it is still reasonably
                                  priced. My trestle legs have gone up in price since I now use a mortise &
                                  tenon joint to attach the cross support. This has added more time to the
                                  construction but the result is a better trestle. People seem to be happy
                                  paying a little more for the sturdier trestles.



                                  Stefan von Kiel
                                  Dwarven Axe Armoury
                                  www.dwarvenaxe.com

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                                • Tim Bray
                                  ... Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or experience do
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 16, 2003
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                                    >What's a good starting point for hourly rate? Minimum wage?

                                    Depends. Are you really trying to make a living at it? Do you have
                                    insurance coverage through a spouse or other job? How much training or
                                    experience do you have? etc...

                                    > I have no
                                    >idea what a modern entry-level cabinetmaker earns.

                                    Depends. Location, experience, market conditions... Right now an
                                    entry-level guy in a commercial shop probably won't be getting much more
                                    than grunt wages, probably less than $10/hour. An experienced guy in a top
                                    market area probably can't get much more than $30/hour. Cabinetmaking is a
                                    tough business right now.

                                    > Do people mark up
                                    >the cost of materials?

                                    No, I just build them into my price. What I do is design the piece, make a
                                    WAG of how long it will take me to complete, figure out how much I want to
                                    make, and add the materials costs plus incidentals. I'm almost always too
                                    low - I don't make much over $10/hour most of the time.

                                    The way I figure materials is to add up the board footage in the piece, add
                                    at least 30% for waste, and add an allowance for consumables (sandpaper,
                                    finish, etc.).

                                    Your price also has to pay back the cost of your tools, and pay for new
                                    blades, power consumption, and a host of other little things that add up.

                                    >That's for sure! There's too many crafty people. I wish I had a buck
                                    >for every time I hear someone say, "I can make that."

                                    What I need is a way to turn compliments into cash. A friend suggested I
                                    put out a large jar, and charge 25 cents every time someone says "Very nice
                                    work, m'lord." :-D

                                    Don't get me wrong, I love those compliments, but they are too rarely
                                    followed by sales!

                                    > > I probably wouldn't make something like that for less than $500,
                                    >
                                    >Wow, my initial thought $300.

                                    Two years ago that's probably what I would have said too. But that would
                                    be sub-minimum wage, at least for the amount of time I would put into
                                    it. If you work faster than me, you can charge less and still make
                                    more. I put a _lot_ of time into details and finishing - cutting chamfers,
                                    easing edges, sanding and scraping. And as I noted above, there are a lot
                                    of expenses that have to get paid out of that price.

                                    >I bought them from a shire member who smiths. I think he charged me
                                    >$20.

                                    Give me that guy's name, I want to order a dozen.

                                    >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                                    >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                                    >right hardware.

                                    Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                                    definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                                    too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                                    Cheers,
                                    Colin




                                    Albion Works
                                    Furniture and Accessories
                                    For the Medievalist!
                                    www.albionworks.net
                                    www.albionworks.com
                                  • Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart
                                    Unless there is a lot of carving I ve found that in the SCA you are lucky if you can get twice the cost of materials. I ve been considering trying to find a
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                      Unless there is a lot of carving
                                      I've found that in the SCA you are
                                      lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                      of materials.

                                      I've been considering trying to find
                                      a local store front to do consignment
                                      through, there I could get something
                                      more like the actual value of the piece.



                                      =====
                                      Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                      Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                      Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                      ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                    • Scott Lane
                                      ... I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would be more than willing
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                        > >I need to finish the forge I'm building. There's a lot of
                                        > >furniture I want to build, but won't do it until I can do it with the
                                        > >right hardware.
                                        >Hardware is a big problem for us medievalists. Forging it yourself is
                                        >definitely a good way to go, but then you have to get paid for that work,
                                        >too. My solution is to make pin-hinged clamped-front chests. ;-)

                                        I am in the process of finishing a whole bunch of hinges for
                                        chests (15+)... They are all spoken for but once I get them done I would
                                        be more than willing to make more, as well as other hardware. If anyone is
                                        interested in traditional forged hardware send me an e-mail at:
                                        scotty@...

                                        In Service,
                                        Aodhfin
                                      • Cockerel Woodworks
                                        I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                          I sell to many different re-enactment groups, and I agree that the SCA is pretty much the worst of them all when it comes to handing over the cash. How do I get around this problem? Simple, my prices do not move! They can either pay for the article at full value or not at all. I will not de-value my work, and yes, that is exactly what you do every time you lower your prices. As for the famous bleat of “ I could make that” my answer is always “yes, but have you?” It is amazing how many of these closet artists never produce a thing………….

                                          Julian (Incidentally, known as master Ulfgar OL in the SCA, lest I am seen to be bashing it)

                                           

                                          Cockerel Woodworks

                                          Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                          View our gallery!

                                          http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                           

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Conal O'hAirt Jim Hart [mailto:baronconal@...]
                                          Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2003 8:26 PM
                                          To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                           

                                          Unless there is a lot of carving
                                          I've found that in the SCA you are
                                          lucky if you can get twice the cost
                                          of materials.

                                          I've been considering trying to find
                                          a local store front to do consignment
                                          through, there I could get something
                                          more like the actual value of the piece.



                                          =====
                                          Baron Conal O'hAirt / Jim Hart
                                          Seneschal, Barony of Fenix

                                             Aude Aliquid Dignum
                                               ' Dare Something Worthy '

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                                        • Tim Bray
                                          ... Minus the store s commission, of course. Which can be substantial; galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren t getting the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 17, 2003
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                                            >I've been considering trying to find
                                            >a local store front to do consignment
                                            >through, there I could get something
                                            >more like the actual value of the piece.

                                            Minus the store's commission, of course. Which can be substantial;
                                            galleries take as much as 50% of the sales price. So you still aren't
                                            getting the "actual value" if that is the same as the sales price. But a
                                            good gallery _adds value_ to your work, by effectively marketing and
                                            presenting it. And if you count the time and cost of going to events to
                                            sell stuff, on balance you are going to be way ahead letting someone else
                                            do that for a 50% commission. Then you can go to events just to have a
                                            good time, instead of being tied to the booth.

                                            Cheers,
                                            Colin



                                            Albion Works
                                            Furniture and Accessories
                                            For the Medievalist!
                                            www.albionworks.net
                                            www.albionworks.com
                                          • Hal and Julia
                                            Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                              Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.
                                               
                                              In service
                                              Hal Raeburn, OL
                                               
                                            • Cockerel Woodworks
                                              Cool, do you have a website? J Cockerel Woodworks Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture. View our gallery! http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel ... From:
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 18, 2003
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                                                Cool, do you have a website?

                                                J

                                                 

                                                Cockerel Woodworks

                                                Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                                View our gallery!

                                                http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                                 

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                                Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                                To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                                 

                                                Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                                 

                                                In service

                                                Hal Raeburn, OL

                                                 



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                                              • Hal and Julia
                                                No, I have not had the time yet to complete one. Hal ... From: Cockerel Woodworks To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 19, 2003
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                                                  No, I have not had the time yet to complete one.
                                                   
                                                  Hal
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 7:49 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                                  Cool, do you have a website?

                                                  J

                                                   

                                                  Cockerel Woodworks

                                                  Medieval and Renaissance fine furniture.

                                                  View our gallery!

                                                  http://merchants-medieval.com/cockerel

                                                   

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Hal and Julia [mailto:raeburn@...]
                                                  Sent: Saturday, 19 July 2003 7:44 AM
                                                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [medievalsawdust] Pricing your work ?

                                                   

                                                  Hi there folks, I have been selling my reproductions and adaptations for over ten years now. I first stated selling them in the SCA as a way of off setting my cost to do effects. My prices were low and I got so many comitions that I could not keep up with orders. In the end I raised my prices to reflect the cost of my art and to slow down the number of orders I received. I now sell to allsorts of people, with reproductions range from Roman to Modern. In the end pricing becomes is a balance of several things your time, your materials, and your art witch can be very emotional.

                                                   

                                                  In service

                                                  Hal Raeburn, OL

                                                   



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