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Re: [medievalsawdust] Shave horses

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  • Scott Lane
    ... Hey! NOBODY S shaving MY horse! Aodhfin
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 3, 2003
      > >Way back in March, we had a discussion on shave horses, and how far

      Hey! NOBODY'S shaving MY horse!

      Aodhfin
    • Tim Bray
      ... I doubt it. Modern-looking workbenches appeared in the 16th century, and are clearly just an evolutionary step (vises) from the simpler tables with dogs
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 3, 2003
        >To me, they seem
        >to be the precursor to our modern work benches.

        I doubt it. Modern-looking workbenches appeared in the 16th century, and
        are clearly just an evolutionary step (vises) from the simpler tables with
        dogs and holdfasts that are seen in the 15th c. illuminations and
        paintings. Those are in turn very similar to Roman benches - just a sturdy
        four-legged table with holes for dogs.

        "The Workbench Book" by Scott Landis (Taunton Press) has some examples of
        these.

        Shave horses seem like a more specialized tool and probably developed
        independently from workbenches.

        >Jessimond - who longs to have a shave horse & pole lathe of her own...

        Colin - who longs to have a big sturdy workbench of his own...


        Albion Works
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        For the Medievalist!
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      • James Winkler
        Awwww... yer no fun!!! Maybe something in a nice poodle cut ??? Charlie 4.5 fingers (the pin s out now... two more weeks to make sure the tendon s
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 3, 2003
          Awwww...  yer' no fun!!!  Maybe something in a nice 'poodle cut'??? 
           
          Charlie '4.5 fingers'  (the pin's out now...  two more weeks to make sure the tendon's connected... sigh...)


          > >Way back in March, we had a discussion on shave horses, and how far

                   Hey!  NOBODY'S shaving MY horse!

          Aodhfin

        • Alessandro dEste
          ... cut ??? ... make sure the tendon s connected... sigh...) ... Its still to late for Crown tho Chas. I had so much looked forwards to seeing you become
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 5, 2003
            --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "James Winkler"
            <jrwinkler@m...> wrote:
            > Awwww... yer' no fun!!! Maybe something in a nice 'poodle
            cut'???
            >
            > Charlie '4.5 fingers' (the pin's out now... two more weeks to
            make sure the tendon's connected... sigh...)
            >

            Its still to late for Crown tho Chas. I had so much looked forwards
            to seeing you become King...
            IYS
            Alessandro
          • James Winkler
            Tee-hee. just keep that thought for another 2.5 to 3 years. I ll be gearing up around then. seems that I have this little gig coming up that will preclude me
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 6, 2003
              Tee-hee… just keep that thought for another 2.5 to 3 years…  I'll be gearing up around then… seems that I have this little gig coming up that will preclude me fighting Crown's for a while… might be a good thing, maybe I can work in my shop without fear of serious bodily injury for a while  (I was reminded a couple of days ago that 4 days before the previous crown I poured a ladle full of molten pewter over my right hand… luckily, it was covered with soapstone dust so the pewter just rolled off before I got any burns…  but I think that was a 'warning shot' that should have been heeded…  'Charles shouldn't fight Crown Tourneys!!!"…  but… what the heck… )
               
              Chas.
               
               
              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "James Winkler"
              <jrwinkler@m...> wrote:
              > Awwww...  yer' no fun!!!  Maybe something in a nice
              'poodle
              cut'??? 
              >
              > Charlie '4.5 fingers'  (the
              pin's out now...  two more weeks to
              make sure the tendon's connected... sigh...)
              >

              Its still to late for Crown tho Chas. I had so much looked forwards
              to seeing you become King...
              IYS
              Alessandro
            • Wolfram Troeder
              Hello, as I was looking through my books for something completly different I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse. I put it in the photos section. Tassilo
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                Hello,
                as I was looking through my books for something completly different
                I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse. I put it in the photos
                section.

                Tassilo

                --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Tom Rettie <tom@h...> wrote:
                > >Way back in March, we had a discussion on shave horses, and how
                far
                > >back they can be documented. Are there any updates to the
                quest? I
                > >have found several books on the history of hand tools and such,
                and
                > >some mention shave horses, but not their evolution. To me, they
                seem
                > >to be the precursor to our modern work benches. Any input?
                >
                > The earliest documentary evidence for a shaving horse that I'm
                aware of is
                > Georgius Agricola's "De Re Metallica" ((1556), which clearly
                illustrates a
                > man shaving down "fuzz sticks" for use in a mine. This is
                the "continental"
                > version where the dumbhead comes up through the center of the
                bench. The
                > "English" style seems to come later.
                >
                > I would resist the jump that, because of their utility, they must
                have had
                > them at a much earlier date. There are a host of "traditional"
                brakes for
                > holding pieces that require little more than a few tree branches.
                The 15th
                > c. Bedford Book of Hours shows a gentleman edge-planing a panel
                that is
                > wedged into notches in some timbers to hold it steady. In the
                Saint Louis
                > Psalter (ca. 1200) Noah is shaping a timber that appears to be
                wedged in a
                > brake of some sort. A late 13th century mosaic shows two sawyers
                ripping a
                > board that one of the sawyers braces with his foot against a
                brake. There's
                > an excellent illustration in a 1531 woodcut of a carver's bench,
                which
                > looks very much like the frame for a pole lathe, but instead of
                turning the
                > piece (a statue) it appears to rotate freely so the carver can
                work from
                > any angle.
                >
                > If anyone finds an earlier shaving horse, I'd love to hear about
                it.
                >
                > Hope that helps.
                >
                > Tom R.
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------
                > Tom Rettie tom@h...
                > http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html
              • Joseph Hayes
                ... What book is that from? Ulrich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                  --- Wolfram Troeder <Rabennest@...> wrote:
                  > as I was looking through my books for something completly different
                  > I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse.

                  What book is that from?

                  Ulrich


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                • kjworz@comcast.net
                  What is that object by the left butt-cheek of that white-cooper? Is that a tool?
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                    What is that object by the left butt-cheek of that white-cooper? Is that a tool?
                    >
                    > --- Wolfram Troeder <Rabennest@...> wrote:
                    > > as I was looking through my books for something completly different
                    > > I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse.
                    >
                    > What book is that from?
                    >
                    > Ulrich
                    >
                    >
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                  • Lord Alessandro dEste
                    ... that a tool? I took the pic and blew it up. To me and I could be wrong. It looks to be some type of clamping device . On line with a sewing pony. Bear
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, kjworz@c... wrote:
                      > What is that object by the left butt-cheek of that white-cooper? Is
                      that a tool?


                      I took the pic and blew it up. To me and I could be wrong. It looks to
                      be some type of clamping device . On line with a sewing pony.
                      Bear
                    • C N Schwartz
                      Darn. I thought it might be a froe. It looks like mine. I have brought THAT froe to Pennsic. It worked great on that crappy firewood. ... From: Lord
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                        Darn. I thought it might be a froe. It looks like mine.

                        I have brought THAT froe to Pennsic. It worked great on that crappy
                        firewood.


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Lord Alessandro dEste [mailto:avalonbear@...]


                        --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, kjworz@c... wrote:
                        > What is that object by the left butt-cheek of that white-cooper? Is
                        that a tool?


                        I took the pic and blew it up. To me and I could be wrong. It looks to
                        be some type of clamping device . On line with a sewing pony.
                        Bear
                      • Wolfram Troeder
                        From the Mendelsche Hausbuch , Nürnberg, 1485 Tassilo ... -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 25, 2003
                          From the "Mendelsche Hausbuch", Nürnberg, 1485

                          Tassilo
                          >
                          > --- Wolfram Troeder <Rabennest@...> wrote:
                          > > as I was looking through my books for something completly different
                          > > I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse.
                          >
                          > What book is that from?
                          >
                          > Ulrich
                          >
                          >
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                        • Wolfram Troeder
                          It is a chop block? Hauklotz for wood chopping and a chopping knife? a Gertel or Hippe . It chops smaller than an axe. Tassilo ... -- GMX
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 26, 2003
                            It is a chop block? "Hauklotz" for wood chopping and a chopping knife? a
                            "Gertel" or "Hippe". It chops smaller than an axe.

                            Tassilo

                            > What is that object by the left butt-cheek of that white-cooper? Is that
                            > a tool?
                            > >
                            > > --- Wolfram Troeder <Rabennest@...> wrote:
                            > > > as I was looking through my books for something completly different
                            > > > I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse.
                            > >
                            > > What book is that from?
                            > >
                            > > Ulrich
                            > >
                            > >
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                          • Lord Alessandro dEste
                            ... I can see that as what it could be but why two blades? Sandro
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 26, 2003
                              --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfram Troeder"
                              <Rabennest@g...> wrote:
                              > It is a chop block? "Hauklotz" for wood chopping and a chopping knife? a
                              > "Gertel" or "Hippe". It chops smaller than an axe.
                              >
                              > Tassilo

                              I can see that as what it could be but why two blades?
                              Sandro
                            • Wolfram Troeder
                              Hi, thats not two blades but two upper edges of one blade. The artist just did not draw the line on the edge between the two edges. Is that clear? On second
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 26, 2003
                                Hi,
                                thats not two blades but two upper edges of one blade. The artist just did
                                not draw the line on the edge between the two edges. Is that clear? On second
                                reading not even for me.
                                Ok, I saw the whole pic. It is a Gertel and it has only one blade. It is
                                made for chopping/splitting so the upper part of the blade (the back?) is broad.
                                In cut it is like a V. The artist tried to paint that, but forgot one line.
                                If you look beyond the stain, the line of the "second blade" merges with the
                                "first blade", so it is actually just one blade. Better?

                                Tassilo
                                > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfram Troeder"
                                > <Rabennest@g...> wrote:
                                > > It is a chop block? "Hauklotz" for wood chopping and a chopping knife? a
                                > > "Gertel" or "Hippe". It chops smaller than an axe.
                                > >
                                > > Tassilo
                                >
                                > I can see that as what it could be but why two blades?
                                > Sandro
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Tom Rettie
                                ... photos ... Good catch. That prompted me to go take a closer look at Das Hausbuch der Mendelschen Zwölfbrüderstiftung in Nürnberg, and I noticed another
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 27, 2003
                                  --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, "Wolfram Troeder"
                                  <Rabennest@g...> wrote:
                                  > I found a 1485 drawing with a shaving horse. I put it in the
                                  photos
                                  > section.

                                  Good catch. That prompted me to go take a closer look at Das
                                  Hausbuch der Mendelschen Zwölfbrüderstiftung in Nürnberg,
                                  and I noticed another cooper with just the hint of what might be a
                                  shaving horse in the background (1515):

                                  http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/094.jpg

                                  There's also an interesting brake used by an armourer(?), a
                                  similar tool that uses dogs instead of a foot vice:

                                  http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~kochr3/mendel/060.jpg

                                  Tom R.
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