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Re: [medievalsawdust] Re: chip carving

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  • Dan Baker
    I will be there, twice in fact. ... -- YIS, Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer Privateer to the Midrealm Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw ...Take time to dance in
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 29 3:23 PM
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      I will be there, twice in fact.

      >
      >so...
      >
      >Who's going to Pennsic?
      >
      > Do we want to get together and
      >put faces and names together...?
      >
      >
      >Charles, you have the most central
      >camp, would you like be tha meting place?
      >
      >
      > Conal
      >
      >
      >__________________________________________________
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      --
      YIS,

      Lord Rhys, Capten gen y Arian Lloer
      Privateer to the Midrealm

      Arafu at dawnsio mewn adlaw
      ...Take time to dance in the rain...

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Beth and Bob Matney
      What are the earliest examples of chip carving in wood/bone/ivory that you know of? Would really like to find a good scholarly reference on the history...
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 4, 2007
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        What are the earliest examples of chip carving in wood/bone/ivory
        that you know of? Would really like to find a good scholarly
        reference on the history...

        Thanks,
        Beth

        On page 22 of
        Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art and
        Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud, Gloucestershire
        [England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623 9780750904629 OCLC:35360600

        "The first manifestations of Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
        Vermand style, after a cemetery in France in which examples of it are
        well represented (81). The style employs chip-carving - a technique
        derived from woodworking, originally developed, like so many Germanic
        decorative techniques, around the head of the Black Sea. This became
        widespread along the Roman frontier in Germany, where it was taken up
        by Germanic troops in the Roman army."

        footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general discussion."
        Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the Thames.
        [London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965. OCLC:1354130
      • Tracy Swanson
        Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case you are unfamiliar, a mangle board was used to press water out of clothing that had just been washed. A wooden
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 4, 2007
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          Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case you are unfamiliar, a mangle board was used to press water out of clothing that had just been washed. A wooden roller was placed upon the wet clothing, then the mangle board was used to apply pressure to the roller. The mangle board became a means of asking a lady to wed. By present her with a finely carved mangle board you showed her your intentions through the patterns of your carving - like the symbolism of the love spoon later adopted. Do a web search to find out the earliest dates.
           
          In Magical Service,
          Malaki
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:00 PM
          To: woodworking
          Subject: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving

          What are the earliest examples of chip carving in wood/bone/ivory
          that you know of? Would really like to find a good scholarly
          reference on the history...

          Thanks,
          Beth

          On page 22 of
          Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art and
          Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud, Gloucestershire
          [England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623 9780750904629 OCLC:35360600

          "The first manifestations of Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
          Vermand style, after a cemetery in France in which examples of it are
          well represented (81). The style employs chip-carving - a technique
          derived from woodworking, originally developed, like so many Germanic
          decorative techniques, around the head of the Black Sea. This became
          widespread along the Roman frontier in Germany, where it was taken up
          by Germanic troops in the Roman army."

          footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general discussion."
          Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the Thames.
          [London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965. OCLC:1354130

        • Beth and Bob Matney
          I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples.. (lots of post 1600 though). I m looking for really early examples of chip carving..
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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            I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
            (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
            chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

            Thanks
            Beth

            At 11:24 PM 10/4/2007, you wrote:
            >Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case you are unfamiliar,
            >a mangle board was used to press water out of clothing that had just
            >been washed. A wooden roller was placed upon the wet clothing, then
            >the mangle board was used to apply pressure to the roller. The
            >mangle board became a means of asking a lady to wed. By present her
            >with a finely carved mangle board you showed her your intentions
            >through the patterns of your carving - like the symbolism of the
            >love spoon later adopted. Do a web search to find out the earliest dates.
            >
            >In Magical Service,
            >Malaki
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
            >[mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
            >Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:00 PM
            >To: woodworking
            >Subject: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving
            >
            >What are the earliest examples of chip carving in wood/bone/ivory
            >that you know of? Would really like to find a good scholarly
            >reference on the history...
            >
            >Thanks,
            >Beth
            >
            >On page 22 of
            >Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art and
            >Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud, Gloucestershire
            >[England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623 9780750904629 OCLC:35360600
            >
            >"The first manifestations of Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
            >Vermand style, after a cemetery in France in which examples of it are
            >well represented (81). The style employs chip-carving - a technique
            >derived from woodworking, originally developed, like so many Germanic
            >decorative techniques, around the head of the Black Sea. This became
            >widespread along the Roman frontier in Germany, where it was taken up
            >by Germanic troops in the Roman army."
            >
            >footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general discussion."
            >Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the Thames.
            >[London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965. OCLC:1354130
            >
            >
          • Rebekah d'Avignon
            That s going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might check Wayne Barton s books, I ve seen some pix of early work in there - nothing before
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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              That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in there - nothing before 1300, I believe.

              Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
              I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
              (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
              chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

              Thanks
              Beth
              .




              The quantity of "civilization" possessed by a society is not found in its sciences, technology, or "quality of life". Rather it is found in the manner in which its citizens treat each other - in which case we are just "high tech barbarians".


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            • Beth and Bob Matney
              We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving (such as on early
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 6, 2007
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                We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
                decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
                (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
                was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
                I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
                of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
                have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...

                BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
                from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.

                Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
                Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
                Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00

                Thanks,
                Beth

                At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
                >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
                >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
                >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
                >
                >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
                >
                >Thanks
                >Beth
              • Dale Compton
                Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 7, 2007
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                  Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving where on furniture. I will see if I can find some examples for you.
                   
                  Innis


                  From: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com [mailto:medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
                  Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:14 AM
                  To: medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [MedievalSawdust] chip carving

                  I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                  (lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                  chip carving.. preferable pre-1000

                  Thanks
                  Beth

                  At 11:24 PM 10/4/2007, you wrote:

                  >Mangle boards were chip carved early on. In case
                  you are unfamiliar,
                  >a mangle board was used to press water out of
                  clothing that had just
                  >been washed. A wooden roller was placed upon the
                  wet clothing, then
                  >the mangle board was used to apply pressure to the
                  roller. The
                  >mangle board became a means of asking a lady to wed. By
                  present her
                  >with a finely carved mangle board you showed her your
                  intentions
                  >through the patterns of your carving - like the symbolism of
                  the
                  >love spoon later adopted. Do a web search to find out the earliest
                  dates.
                  >
                  >In Magical
                  Service,
                  >Malaki
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From:
                  href="mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com">medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com
                  >[mailto:
                  href="mailto:medievalsawdust%40yahoogroups.com">medievalsawdust@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney
                  >Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:00
                  PM
                  >To: woodworking
                  >Subject: [MedievalSawdust] chip
                  carving
                  >
                  >What are the earliest examples of chip carving in
                  wood/bone/ivory
                  >that you know of? Would really like to find a good
                  scholarly
                  >reference on the
                  history...
                  >
                  >Thanks,
                  >Beth
                  >
                  >On page 22
                  of
                  >Laing, Lloyd Robert, and Jennifer Laing. Early English Art
                  and
                  >Architecture: Archaeology and Society. Stroud,
                  Gloucestershire
                  >[England]: Sutton Pub, 1996. ISBN:0750904623
                  9780750904629 OCLC:35360600
                  >
                  >"The first manifestations of
                  Anglo-Saxon art may be termed the
                  >Vermand style, after a cemetery in
                  France in which examples of it are
                  >well represented (81). The style
                  employs chip-carving - a technique
                  >derived from woodworking, originally
                  developed, like so many Germanic
                  >decorative techniques, around the head
                  of the Black Sea. This became
                  >widespread along the Roman frontier in
                  Germany, where it was taken up
                  >by Germanic troops in the Roman
                  army."
                  >
                  >footnote 81: "Evison, 1965, useful general
                  discussion."
                  >Evison, Vera I. The Fifth-Century Invasions South of the
                  Thames.
                  >[London]: University of London, Athlone Press, 1965.
                  OCLC:1354130
                  >
                  >

                • Rebekah d'Avignon
                  You may be talking about An Introduction to the History of the Woodcut (Vols I & II). I got mine from eBay. Dale Compton wrote:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 7, 2007
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                    You may be talking about An Introduction to the History of the Woodcut (Vols I & II). I got mine from eBay.

                    Dale Compton <DComptonjr@...> wrote:
                    Look for items done by Durer (sp?) He is late period but did some really good work. Most of what he did was for prints etc. Other examples of chip carving where on furniture. I will see if I can find some examples for you.
                     
                    Innis
                    .




                    The quantity of "civilization" possessed by a society is not found in its sciences, technology, or "quality of life". Rather it is found in the manner in which its citizens treat each other - in which case we are just "high tech barbarians".


                    Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
                    Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

                  • Jan-Simon Hoogschagen
                    As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it mentioned in the books, or
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                      As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval
                      furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it
                      mentioned in the books, or saw pictures of it.
                      As already said in this discussion, it does appear on chests from the
                      13th / 14th century.
                      I will check the book by Florian Westphal this evening (beautiful book
                      by the way), when I am back home to see if I have not missed any chip
                      carvings. Will also go through Barbara Grodde's book on early medieval
                      furniture, just in case.

                      best wishes,
                      Jan-Simon

                      --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                      <bmatney@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
                      > decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
                      > (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
                      > was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
                      > I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
                      > of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
                      > have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...
                      >
                      > BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
                      > from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.
                      >
                      > Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
                      > Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
                      > Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Beth
                      >
                      > At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
                      > >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
                      > >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
                      > >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
                      > >
                      > >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                      > >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                      > >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                      > >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
                      > >
                      > >Thanks
                      > >Beth
                      >
                    • kjworz@comcast.net
                      A lot would depend on your definition of chip carving. Does it have to be in wood? What we recognize today as chip carving has roots in the styles that matured
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                        A lot would depend on your definition of chip carving.

                        Does it have to be in wood?

                        What we recognize today as chip carving has roots in the styles that matured in Switzerland post period.

                        Every treatise I read about Chip Carving always say that "is an ancient method of decoration" but never cites examples. Citations, the lack thereof, is a bane to our research.

                        Links
                        http://www.caithness.org/community/crafts/chipcarving/McIvorandAllen.htm
                        cites especially the geometric carving influence from Islam

                        http://www.fifulls.com/site/837579/page/45030

                        --
                        -Chris Schwartz
                        Silver Spring, MD

                        -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        From: "Jan-Simon Hoogschagen" <jan-simon@...>
                        > As far as I know, chip carving does not exist on early medieval
                        > furniture and other surviving pieces. At least, I have not seen it
                        > mentioned in the books, or saw pictures of it.
                        > As already said in this discussion, it does appear on chests from the
                        > 13th / 14th century.
                        > I will check the book by Florian Westphal this evening (beautiful book
                        > by the way), when I am back home to see if I have not missed any chip
                        > carvings. Will also go through Barbara Grodde's book on early medieval
                        > furniture, just in case.
                        >
                        > best wishes,
                        > Jan-Simon
                        >
                        > --- In medievalsawdust@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                        > <bmatney@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > We have taken photos of chests (of about that date) that have rondels
                        > > decorating them in chip carving. Of other earlier surviving carving
                        > > (such as on early stave churches), I have not found chip carving and
                        > > was hoping that someone else had.. given the quote from the book that
                        > > I posted with the question. I'll check Barton's books (don't have any
                        > > of his) and see if he has earlier examples or others that we do not
                        > > have. Lazy I guess, looks like lots of ILL of German Holzfunde...
                        > >
                        > > BTW. There is a new book out on Holzfunde from Haithabu (wooden finds
                        > > from Hedeby)... bit pricey with the exchange rate though.
                        > >
                        > > Holzfunde von Haithabu (Gebundene Ausgabe) von Florian Westphal.
                        > > Gebundene Ausgabe: 248 Seiten Verlag: Wachholtz; Auflage: 1 (2007)
                        > > Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3529014117 EUR 70,00
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > > Beth
                        > >
                        > > At 07:30 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
                        > > >That's going to be tough since wood tends to deteriorate. You might
                        > > >check Wayne Barton's books, I've seen some pix of early work in
                        > > >there - nothing before 1300, I believe.
                        > > >
                        > > >Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...> wrote:
                        > > >I did a search as you suggested, but could not find early examples..
                        > > >(lots of post 1600 though). I'm looking for really early examples of
                        > > >chip carving.. preferable pre-1000
                        > > >
                        > > >Thanks
                        > > >Beth
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Bruce S. R. Lee
                        In stone, do a search on Jesus Family Tomb - at least one of the ossuaries has chip carved rosettes. Photos are in the May/June 2007 (vol 18 No.3) issue of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 8, 2007
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                          In stone, do a search on 'Jesus Family Tomb' - at least one of the
                          ossuaries has 'chip' carved rosettes. Photos are in the May/June 2007
                          (vol 18 No.3) issue of Minerva, if you local library gets it.

                          There are a lot of 'chip' carved designs in stone from the
                          'Classical' world, just that the amount of surviving wood is very
                          limited. I'll have to do a quick search of my Roman woodworking books
                          to see if anything survived from Herculaneum.


                          regards
                          Brusi of Orkney
                          Rowany/Lochac
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